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Author Topic: energy, time, power, units and ratios  (Read 1471 times)

Offline Floor

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energy, time, power, units and ratios
« on: May 12, 2021, 03:27:00 PM »



Re: Has anyone here constructed an overunity system that works?
« Reply #139 on: Today at 02:56:00 PM »

    Quote from conradelectro

"    Like I earlier said..

    here is one @

    https://overunity.com/18551/magnet-shear-to-direct-pull-work-ratio/msg557293/#msg557293

             floor "

End of the quote

    Quote from conradelectro

"@Floor: When you write about your "magnet shear" you only state the force applied (in grams).

You then have to compute the "work" which is "force times displacement" or W = F * s
see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_(physics)

Finally you have to compute the "power" which is P = dW/dt = F*v
see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Power_(physics)

In simpler words: you need to take into account over which distance (s) the force (F) is applied (W = F * s) and the time (t) during which the work is done (P = dW/dt = F*v, where s and t go into the calculation of v).

Just to talk about the force is not sufficient to compare "power in" with the "power out".

It is not easy to calculate the power for you contraptions. Careful distance measurements and time measurements would be necessary. Nothing happens "in a linear way" in your contraptions, therefore a function has to be modeled and then integrated numerically. I do not want to do the work, because the outcome of the calculation is clear.

Do you really think that such a simple thing (what you call magnet shear) was overlooked? There is no "magnet shear", just a magnetic field and the properties of a magnetic field are known in all directions."
End of quote

Offline Floor

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Re: energy, time, power, units and ratios
« Reply #1 on: May 12, 2021, 03:59:50 PM »
"You then have to compute the "work" which is "force times displacement" or W = F * s
see https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_(physics)"


This is true only if one desires to state / convert the energy in / to joules.

So long as that conversion remains undone in ALL the measurement sets,
the input to output ratios are the same as if the conversions to newtons, meters
and joules had been done in all of the measurement sets.

But surely you must know this full well already ?

You are free to make those conversions for your self, if you wish to
see the results in joules.

next...

Power in respect to mechanical work, is joules per second.

In terms of usefulness in the real world, I would agree that assessment
of the output energy per unit of time (horse power) is always important.

But not needed in order to show more energy out than in.

But surely you must know this also and  full well.

next...

That it has been over looked or not is not the basis for my findings.
Measurements are.

Skeptical good - Cynical bad

   It good to see your still around.
                     floor           

Offline conradelektro

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Re: energy, time, power, units and ratios
« Reply #2 on: May 12, 2021, 09:27:04 PM »

1) This is true only if one desires to state / convert the energy in / to joules.

So long as that conversion remains undone in ALL the measurement sets,
the input to output ratios are the same as if the conversions to newtons, meters
and joules had been done in all of the measurement sets.

2) Power in respect to mechanical work, is joules per second.

In terms of usefulness in the real world, I would agree that assessment
of the output energy per unit of time (horse power) is always important.

But not needed in order to show more energy out than in.



ad 1) It is not a question of conversion. One has to take the displacement and the time over which a force is applied into consideration. This is additional information in the calculation of power, not a conversion into different units.

ad 2) You also have to know for how many seconds the work is done. So, it is not "per seconds" but "over the seconds the force lasted and the work was done" (the length of time the work is done) .

Please stick to the mathematics in my post, then you will understand.

Greetings, Conrad


P.S.: It is not the first time that I try to teach these facts in this forum. But it was always in vain, because people do not understand simple mathematics and simple definitions in physics when calculating power in and power out.


You need
- force applied (force F might vary over the displacement and over time)
- displacement (path s along which the force F is applied, the path s might be a curve and not a simple line)
- the time over which the work is applied (it is not "work per second" but the "duration t = the number of seconds over which the work happens", which is a number with digits also after the comma, not an integer)


You can calculate the displacement s in meters, feet or millimetres, and the time t in seconds, milliseconds or hours, whatever units you want. The choice of units would be a conversion. For Joules you would have to use meters, kilograms and seconds.

I do not want to write all this again and again, so I stop the discussion now. It is no a discussion, it is a statement of fact. Sorry, I do not want to sound clever, it is rather simple.

Offline Ilya Tsimbaluk

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Re: energy, time, power, units and ratios
« Reply #3 on: May 12, 2021, 10:01:31 PM »
Greetings. You will allow me to join the discussion.
it will be tempting to talk to questions related to physics.
I think we can discuss some very interesting points here.

Namely.
The question is. what if we consider the physics of processes. in which we must understand the concept of work. which we measure in Joules the reason. which requires the use of such a thing as work.

We REALLY USE THE CLASSIC FORMULA. in which A = F * s
But you need to remember one important thing. for what reason are you using this formula?
The reason is the formula presented when by Joule where A is work, Q - = Joule heat.
In fact - as soon as you consider the work, automatically you should consider the processes, including. what Umov considered, Poynting Heaviside.
Processes in the staging environment.
That. what we call warmth must be regarded as that. what we lose back to the environment and can be considered as energy that goes outside the system.

so. when we talk about the word work in relation to the work of the physical body, we need to consider the movement of the body and at the same time consider the flow of energy., which could compensate for your costs of generating heat.

But here the conversation is about magnets. Therefore, you need to clearly understand what we will consider here as work. which we will consider as processes in the staging environment.

Offline Floor

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Re: energy, time, power, units and ratios
« Reply #4 on: May 13, 2021, 12:35:24 AM »
@ conradelectro
@ Ilya Tsimbaluk

Offline Floor

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Re: energy, time, power, units and ratios
« Reply #5 on: May 13, 2021, 12:37:02 AM »
one more..