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Hydrogen energy => Electrolysis of H20 and Hydrogen on demand generation => Topic started by: GraffixWB on January 11, 2007, 09:59:57 AM

Title: Hydrogen engine limits
Post by: GraffixWB on January 11, 2007, 09:59:57 AM
okAy. i haven't posted here much but I have an idea that has probably been tried. I was thinking pretty basically and wanted to strap a bunch or alternators to a KA motor(nissan 4cyl) , which I have left over from a swap, for electrolysis. will I be able to produce enough power to generate enough gas to keep it going? I'm nmot trying to fit it into a car or anything. I just want to get a working exaple to start off of in my garage and work from there. the goal is to get off of the grid with WATER ONLY. no solar, no FF, no wind.

I have searched but have only found BS (joe cell and basic hydrogen suplimentation).i want to have it rn TOTALLY on a  water based fuel and FREE(- repairs and such)

please help me out!!!!
Title: Re: Hydrogen engine limits
Post by: pg46 on January 12, 2007, 04:55:33 AM
Hi-

 There is quite a lot of information about hydrogen systems over at

www.oupower.com

Happy reading and best of luck with your experiments
Title: Re: Hydrogen engine limits
Post by: Dingus Mungus on January 12, 2007, 12:31:37 PM
I have a suggestion but not a solution. First and foremost I would contact user Mramos about his experiments in the same area of research. Secondly I suggest you buy and machine some SS316 plate (stainless steel grade 316). The closer the plates are in proximity the less energy expended by the ions in travel. Load your stainless steel tank with NaOH which will further aid in reducing the power consumption. The major benefit to the SS316 and NaOH electrolysis cell is that neither the steel electrodes or the NaOH electrolytes are consumed. To further "Close the loop I would also suggest you recycle the exhaust via a bubbler pipe in the water storage portion of the cell, because electrolysis of heated water requires less energy.

You would then need to develop an efficient circuit that would deliver just the right: voltage, amperage, and frequency based on temperature, ph, and pressure. It may be more complicated  or it might be less complicated... The only way to know for sure is to try it yourself. Might I also suggest you start with a smaller cheaper engine maybe a 1-5HP engine.
(cheap lawn mower engine would work for experimenting)

If you would like to further discuss electrolysis concepts or have any questions I'd be glad to try to help you out, but honestly there is no instant solution being mass produced. Developing something from scratch will take a long time and a lot of work. Each cell design is unique and its power input/output is dependent on the dynamics of the cell and efficiency of the collector (IC<30%). PEM fuel cells are most efficient (PEM<75%) and all the excess energy is used heating the output water.

Good luck on your hunt for the answer,
~Dingus

P.S. Don't forget H2 + O2 -> H2O is a implosion so ignition will expand a little then retract the piston.

Some useful links:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,518.0.html
http://www.geocities.com/waterfuel111/tricks_electrolysis.html
http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/h-o/chemchrt.htm
http://www.eskimo.com/~ghawk/h-o/
http://www.phact.org/e/bgas.txt
Title: Re: Hydrogen engine limits
Post by: Paul-R on January 12, 2007, 03:56:02 PM
P.S. Don't forget H2 + O2 -> H2O is a implosion so ignition will expand a little then retract the piston.
I reckon that this issue is crucial, and the standard IC engine does not provide
for the power stroke associated with the burning (to form hot steam) and the
subsequent suction power stroke when this steam condenses back to water.
Remember the famous oil drum experiment.

(In reality, it would be a lot easier to get an old Briggs & Stratton lawn mower engine
from Ebay for ?30 or so, but no regular IC engine is going to get the best results)
Paul.
Title: Re: Hydrogen engine limits
Post by: GraffixWB on February 08, 2007, 08:13:33 AM
Good call. it seems that a 2 stroke would work better in this spot. thanks for settin me straight.
Title: Re: Hydrogen engine limits
Post by: Dingus Mungus on February 09, 2007, 12:42:07 AM
Good call. it seems that a 2 stroke would work better in this spot. thanks for settin me straight.

Well be cautious with 2stroke engines... They still require oil delivery... There are some 2 stroke motors with their own oil resivoirs that dynamicly add oil to the cylinder, but its hard to prevent it from contaminating the water or burning it off. Of course if you use a 2 stroke that requires the oil be pre-mixed with the fuel it will eventually sieze if no oil is added. So sadly while a 2 stoke IC sounds good on paper it dosen't work much better then a 4stroke. Recently I've been thinking EC engines are the solution. Use the HHO to heat a metal drum filled with water and use the steam to drive the pistons. A lot like a train but incorporating hydrogen and removing coal from the equation.

Now the intersting part: While a IC engine is typically 30% efficient and a steam engine is typically 10-15% efficient, pure hydrogen burns in a very interesting way. Depending on what surface a hydrogen flame cone is applied to, the flames heat will dynamicly change allowing it to sublimate metals with extreamly high boiling points. so using hydrogen to heat water contained in a thick ultra high boiling point vessel would cause the water to heat faster then if you applied the flame dirrectly to the water. Neat stuff! Based on these observations I think we'll find the external combustion steam engine to be more efficient then the modern IC engine when hydrogen is used as a primary fuel. I don't have the finances to start work on this yet, but its a pet project for the future.

Good luck,
~Dingus
Title: Re: Hydrogen engine limits
Post by: Paul-R on February 09, 2007, 04:03:41 PM
In regular IC engines, H2 and O2 work differently to petrol.

Petrol produces a very large volume of CO2, and
this pushes the piston with great power.

H2 and O2 burn, expand and this pressure pushes
the piston. Then, the products of combustion, steam,
will condense back to water producing a suction which
may well have just as much power. But the first
power stroke does not happen in the same time as
the second power stroke.

As a result, a different design of IC engine is needed
to get good efficiencies from these two power strokes
in this cycle.
Paul-R
Title: Re: Hydrogen engine limits
Post by: h20power on February 09, 2007, 05:53:42 PM
Hi, As far as the information on the Joe Cell, it is my firm belief that someone is putting disinformation out on purpose, to discredit the technology :-\. This BJ guy is so full of bull >:(. I started working on the solutions to the Joe Cell and pretty much have it all worked out ::). By the way it's true name is a Grove Cell ;), invented by Sir William Robert Grove. Now I have some new theories to add to Faradays work. All I will say is that it seems to be based on the self-ionization of water, something scientist know very little about. I have to test all of my new theories first to make sure, but the math checks out so far. I will let everyone know the true workings of a grove cell when I am done with all of my testing 8).
Title: Re: Hydrogen engine limits
Post by: FreeEnergy on February 09, 2007, 09:30:25 PM
Hi, As far as the information on the Joe Cell, it is my firm belief that someone is putting disinformation out on purpose, to discredit the technology :-\. This BJ guy is so full of bull >:(. I started working on the solutions to the Joe Cell and pretty much have it all worked out ::). By the way it's true name is a Grove Cell ;), invented by Sir William Robert Grove. Now I have some new theories to add to Faradays work. All I will say is that it seems to be based on the self-ionization of water, something scientist know very little about. I have to test all of my new theories first to make sure, but the math checks out so far. I will let everyone know the true workings of a grove cell when I am done with all of my testing 8).

very nice. i have to look that up now. i have read some of Joe's stuff but never heard of this. good job.

peace
Title: Re: Hydrogen engine limits
Post by: FreeEnergy on February 09, 2007, 09:36:19 PM
http://americanhistory.si.edu/fuelcells/origins/origins.htm  :D
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/William_Robert_Grove  ;D
Title: Re: Hydrogen engine limits
Post by: h20power on February 10, 2007, 12:12:51 AM
Thanks, it took a lot of serching to tract down the true inventor, take a look at the cell in this old photo http://www.bioanalytical.com/info/calendar/97/grove.htm
It is clear to see just how it is conected in this drawing and notice too the neutral tube not hook up to anything. Sir William R. Grove is also credited with to the modern day fuel cell's. Was this guy bright or what? Anyways I am working on some new theories that should change the world. But this guy here has the best solution I have seen so far :o: http://waterengine.com.au/Video/WaterMotor.mp4, but I will keep up my work here for my technology can even aid to his to make it work better ;).