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Author Topic: Opposed Piston Motor  (Read 40094 times)

Offline tropes

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Re: Opposed Piston Motor
« Reply #60 on: February 05, 2010, 05:57:03 PM »
In the meantime, using your '10 cylinder' design, you can just lower the voltage on the coils to the point where they aren't pushing.  The end result is that all the real work is being done by the attraction phase of the other pairs.  I'm not sure what the difference would be and it might not even be a positive impact.
Because the two opposing pistons (magnets) are at their closest proximity to each other at one point while the others are attracted, it is necessary to fire that one coil. Otherwise all the magnets are in a state of balance and there is no motion. I will give this further thought. Thanks for the input.
Tropes 

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Re: Opposed Piston Motor
« Reply #60 on: February 05, 2010, 05:57:03 PM »

Offline solinear

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Re: Opposed Piston Motor
« Reply #61 on: February 05, 2010, 06:43:53 PM »
Because the two opposing pistons (magnets) are at their closest proximity to each other at one point while the others are attracted, it is necessary to fire that one coil. Otherwise all the magnets are in a state of balance and there is no motion. I will give this further thought. Thanks for the input.
Tropes

What I'm saying is to have them fire on the same timer, just lower the voltage while they are charged, so that you're expending less energy.

Offline solinear

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Re: Opposed Piston Motor
« Reply #62 on: February 08, 2010, 06:41:18 PM »
What I'm saying is to have them fire on the same timer, just lower the voltage while they are charged, so that you're expending less energy.

To clarify what I'm saying, don't change the 'repel' phase timer in any way, just adjust the voltage to a lower amount (1.5v from 3.5v or whatever you're currently using) and that will reduce the wattage consumed significantly, then attach a generator to the crankshaft, if you don't currently have one.  I understand that your back-EMF makes the motor a generator, but it doesn't utilize as much of the torque as it could or as efficiently as it could.

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Re: Opposed Piston Motor
« Reply #62 on: February 08, 2010, 06:41:18 PM »
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Offline tropes

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Re: Opposed Piston Motor
« Reply #63 on: February 08, 2010, 08:43:59 PM »
To clarify what I'm saying, don't change the 'repel' phase timer in any way, just adjust the voltage to a lower amount (1.5v from 3.5v or whatever you're currently using) and that will reduce the wattage consumed significantly, then attach a generator to the crankshaft, if you don't currently have one.  I understand that your back-EMF makes the motor a generator, but it doesn't utilize as much of the torque as it could or as efficiently as it could.
I will experiment with different source voltage. The main source of generated power is not BEMF but current induced in the coil when the two magnets are drawn towards it.
Tropes

Offline solinear

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Re: Opposed Piston Motor
« Reply #64 on: February 08, 2010, 08:59:01 PM »
I will experiment with different source voltage. The main source of generated power is not BEMF but current induced in the coil when the two magnets are drawn towards it.
Tropes

There is going to be a maximum amount of energy you can get from a single coil.  If you attached a small generator (hand crank dynamo, maybe), you would get more energy out than you'll get from that single coil.  Not to mention that you're inducing kinetic energy from the repel phase of your cycle, which ends up being basically 80% loss (small amount of energy goes into the flywheel, but not much).  If you had a small generator attached, I think it would probably be closer to 20-40% loss, which is a pretty big difference.

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Re: Opposed Piston Motor
« Reply #64 on: February 08, 2010, 08:59:01 PM »
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Offline solinear

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Re: Opposed Piston Motor
« Reply #65 on: February 10, 2010, 04:33:23 PM »
BTW, do you have a diagram of your controller circuit, with the parts you used?  I like your photointerrupter and need something similar for my design.  I could use a commutator, but would rather use something more like what you have set up there.

Offline tropes

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Re: Opposed Piston Motor
« Reply #66 on: February 10, 2010, 05:55:04 PM »
BTW, do you have a diagram of your controller circuit, with the parts you used?  I like your photointerrupter and need something similar for my design.  I could use a commutator, but would rather use something more like what you have set up there.

A simple circuit using a photointerrupter is found here: http://www.simplemotor.com/oimotor.htm
Tropes

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Re: Opposed Piston Motor
« Reply #66 on: February 10, 2010, 05:55:04 PM »
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Offline solinear

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Re: Opposed Piston Motor
« Reply #67 on: February 11, 2010, 10:28:52 PM »
You mentioned previously that the closer the magnets (pistons) got to each-other, the more voltage had to be applied to the coil to get it to push them apart again.

Is the relationship between pull force of the magnets (in lbs) or is it based on the flux density?

Offline tropes

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Re: Opposed Piston Motor
« Reply #68 on: February 12, 2010, 12:40:38 AM »
You mentioned previously that the closer the magnets (pistons) got to each-other, the more voltage had to be applied to the coil to get it to push them apart again.

Is the relationship between pull force of the magnets (in lbs) or is it based on the flux density?
Solinear
The distance between the magnets is a factor in determining both pull force and flux density.
 When you say I "mentioned previously" please give reference to the posting so I am able to better answer your question.
I would like very much to see your design.

Tropes 

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Re: Opposed Piston Motor
« Reply #68 on: February 12, 2010, 12:40:38 AM »
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Offline solinear

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Re: Opposed Piston Motor
« Reply #69 on: February 12, 2010, 02:59:26 AM »
Also, the PM pistons should not contact the EM core but should have an air gap between. There is a great difference in the force required to separate the two.
Thanks again
Peter

I guess I was reading quickly when I did read it.  I'm not using a core with my design, so it's not really relevant for me.  Does the distance between the EM and the PMs (in your design) make a difference in the amount of power you have to spend to repel them?

Offline tropes

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Re: Opposed Piston Motor
« Reply #70 on: February 12, 2010, 05:43:06 PM »
I guess I was reading quickly when I did read it.  I'm not using a core with my design, so it's not really relevant for me.  Does the distance between the EM and the PMs (in your design) make a difference in the amount of power you have to spend to repel them?
The quote from Jan. 2007 was referring to a single piston repelled by a solid core coil.
Yes, the distance makes a difference.
Would you share your design which has no core? Perhaps it is an air core.
Tropes

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Re: Opposed Piston Motor
« Reply #70 on: February 12, 2010, 05:43:06 PM »
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Offline solinear

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Re: Opposed Piston Motor
« Reply #71 on: February 12, 2010, 08:36:32 PM »
I'm still doing some early testing with my design and want to do a lot of validation before I post anything about it.  If you read through my posts in this thread though, I give some small hints.

I first came up with my concept about 8 months ago after dumping a couple dozen other designs and ended up chasing some dead-end ideas (or at least ideas that I didn't have the time/resources to chase further) and having incomplete understanding of magnetism and motors.  I've made a couple of design changes and am ready to do some early testing over the next few weeks.  Once I get that done, I'll talk to my business partner to see what he thinks before I give out any details.

Our designs have a number of conceptual similarities, but the implementation is completely different from a mechanical standpoint.  That's probably why I post in this thread more than others - I think that, of the ideas on this site (including that Orbo stuff), yours has the most potential.

Offline tropes

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Re: Opposed Piston Motor
« Reply #72 on: February 13, 2010, 01:49:30 AM »
I first came up with my concept about 8 months ago after dumping a couple dozen other designs and ended up chasing some dead-end ideas (or at least ideas that I didn't have the time/resources to chase further) and having incomplete understanding of magnetism and motors.  I've made a couple of design changes and am ready to do some early testing over the next few weeks.  Once I get that done, I'll talk to my business partner to see what he thinks before I give out any details.
I first came up with my concept in 2006 and after 7 prototypes and limited resources I'm finally getting my second multi-coil motor completed.
The learning curve has been steep since my knowledge was mainly mechanical (internal combustion engines).
Your reluctance to disclose details is probably due to patent concerns but unless you have very deep pockets you will exhaust yourself defending a patent. Unless a new idea comes from a major player like General Motors or Northrop Grumman the public will not buy in. Sadly, it's the "American Way".
Tropes

Offline solinear

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Re: Opposed Piston Motor
« Reply #73 on: February 14, 2010, 06:59:06 PM »
I first came up with my concept in 2006 and after 7 prototypes and limited resources I'm finally getting my second multi-coil motor completed.
The learning curve has been steep since my knowledge was mainly mechanical (internal combustion engines).
Your reluctance to disclose details is probably due to patent concerns but unless you have very deep pockets you will exhaust yourself defending a patent. Unless a new idea comes from a major player like General Motors or Northrop Grumman the public will not buy in. Sadly, it's the "American Way".
Tropes

In 2006, I was still looking at gravity-based systems (had just started looking at overunity).  Since then I've went through 100% PM systems (burned about 2 years looking at them occasionally in my evenings and weekends) and finally started looking at PM/EM systems.  I'm primarily a troubleshooter, I look at a problem, then try and figure out why a design won't work, then either find a way around that problem or discard the concept and move on.  There are a few designs that I have that are similar to yours (parallel attraction from a magnet), but I think they will be something that requires a lot of fine tuning - beyond what I would want to run through at this point in time.  In the last 8 months I've been looking at EM/EM systems and I think they'll work, but it won't be as efficient as PM/EM systems could be.

As for patent fights, there are dozens of patents out there for non-standard EM motor designs.  Most of them have expired and I haven't found any that are similar to mine (though I have found some with similarities to yours) yet.  Also, with appropriate safeguards you can really make any challenges go away or be tossed out quickly.  Get a highly public business figure to back you (Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, the Google guys, etc...) and the fact that your announcement is almost immediately world news means that any challenges would have a HUGE hurdle to jump over and would seem like an opportunistic company trying to steal your design.  Proper preparation and waiting until your patent is awarded means their hurdle is even higher.  Do I think that there wouldn't be challenges?  Absolutely not - there are going to be opportunists that try and either get bought off (free money) or steal your invention, but I think that, if you're careful, they would lose.
« Last Edit: February 14, 2010, 07:26:05 PM by solinear »

Offline tropes

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Re: Opposed Piston Motor
« Reply #74 on: February 15, 2010, 04:10:17 PM »
As for patent fights, there are dozens of patents out there for non-standard EM motor designs.  Most of them have expired and I haven't found any that are similar to mine (though I have found some with similarities to yours) yet.  Also, with appropriate safeguards you can really make any challenges go away or be tossed out quickly.  Get a highly public business figure to back you (Bill Gates, Steve Jobs, the Google guys, etc...) and the fact that your announcement is almost immediately world news means that any challenges would have a HUGE hurdle to jump over and would seem like an opportunistic company trying to steal your design.  Proper preparation and waiting until your patent is awarded means their hurdle is even higher.  Do I think that there wouldn't be challenges?  Absolutely not - there are going to be opportunists that try and either get bought off (free money) or steal your invention, but I think that, if you're careful, they would lose.
There is no hope in hell that someone like Steve Jobs or Bill Gates is going to back you financially before you've spent at least $100,000 of your own cash but I will not convince you of that until you go through the process yourself.
Tropes

 

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