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Author Topic: Acoustical feedback energy system  (Read 28598 times)

aleks

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Re: Acoustical feedback energy system
« Reply #150 on: April 30, 2023, 08:06:19 AM »
I think the loudspeakers were similar to the currently available SVEN 230 computer speakers (available in Russia). Here's the photo of internals, it's a "barebone" opamp-based amplifier (I suppose) with a built-in transformer. I haven't disassembled speakers I had in 2011, but considering the cost ($10 per pair), it's the only option. Maybe I'm mistaken about power rating, it could have been 10W per pair, but that's not so important I think.

stivep

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Re: Acoustical feedback energy system
« Reply #151 on: April 30, 2023, 01:49:12 PM »
Note that computer speakers have stereo inputs. IIRC I've simply twisted them so instead of stereo they became mono inputs. I do not remember how I twisted them, but cutting and exposing the original wires wasn't hard, what's more important this worked and all speakers reproduced the same sinewave signal.

About stereo vs mono:
stereo  creates a sense of immersion-signal strength (3 dB more doesn't sound a lot louder, but is actually twice as much power!),
our ears  are very sensitive to phase relations. even very far away. This is so even if there is some panning going on and there are actually multiple PA speakers broadcasting the signal.
But it looks like  you have  analog output from the  sound card.( please  provide  sound card  model number and manufacturer  or just a picture of it.)
(in digital output there is No sine wave  nor even a chance to  provide a sine wave)
 digital to analog converter does the trick by signal sampling process.

So we assume for now that:
 - output from the sound card was analog .
- Right and Left channels  from sound card have common wire - ground and L. R wire that you connected in parallel
-  I means you created  two signals that  had two  sinusoids :
    - not in phase, or in phase.
    - of the same amplitude  or not .
    - slightly differing frequency or not.
      but both were simultaneously present, and you had no chance to know if amplification level of your sound card for both channels was the same
      nor know anything  about that sound  apart of  just listening to that sound and presuming that  generated sound was as you think it was.
    - frequency and amplitude scan was  made by digital to analog converter  in your computer and you were able to change it, scan it.

https://youtu.be/SFBY-vhgUHw?t=21
Each one of the speakers had its own power plug to electrical outlet? or  just one for all of  the speakers ?
Please correct me  if I'm wrong.
Wesley

aleks

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Re: Acoustical feedback energy system
« Reply #152 on: April 30, 2023, 02:15:04 PM »
Each one of the speakers had its own power plug to electrical outlet? or  just one for all of  the speakers ?
Please correct me  if I'm wrong.
I'm talking about 3 speaker-pairs. Each pair has 1 stereo input which I converted to mono by twisting the L/R input leads, so they were receiving the same in-phase signal, obviously at a lower voltage. Then all 3 twisted input stereo pairs were twisted together with the output channel of the soundcard (I can't remember exactly, but I've probably only used 1 output lead as to not cause any interference on the soundcard); ground leads were twisted together, of course. Very loose and lame way to do it I know, but as a result all speakers received the same in-phase signal, from the soundcard which produced a mono sinewave signal output.


Each speaker pair was connected to the electric tee independently, 3 connections overall. Note that the fuse on the tee was blown not due to connection awkwardness, but only after I hit a certain frequency on computer's sinewave generator plugin.


I'll try to do it all again soon, I've just ordered the required parts.


I do not think soundcard chip model is relevant, and I do not know which one it was. Probably, some common Realtek soundcard chip.

stivep

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Re: Acoustical feedback energy system
« Reply #153 on: April 30, 2023, 02:48:26 PM »
reedited quote of aleks:
I'm talking about 3 speaker-pairs.
//having 1 stereo input //receiving the same in-phase signal, //obviously at a lower voltage.
all 3 twisted input stereo pairs were twisted together with the output channel of the soundcard
only used 1 output lead (was possibly used)
ground leads were twisted together,all speakers received the same in-phase signal, from the soundcard which produced a mono sinewave signal output.Each speaker pair was connected to the electric tee independently, 3 connections overall.
Probably, some common Realtek soundcard chip.
Thank you.
So I understand that  e.g right channel from the sound card was not connected at all .
and only left was used ?


Note that the fuse on the tee was blown not due to connection awkwardness, but only after I hit a certain frequency on computer's sinewave generator plugin.
Question  about the tee:
The tee you are talking about- was it the electrical extender  allowing from single wall electrical outlet to  have  3 individual  outlets like a T splitter  connected into the 220V outlet that had its own 15A fuse?
Was your computer than connected to separate outlet but  your apartment  or house  was connected to  only one single  220V phase?
Do you have in your apartment or house  3 phase feed 3x220V?
Do you have in your apartment or house  2 phase feed   means you can have 220V or 380V ( in between the phases?)
If you have  anywhere in your apartment or house  380V is it possible that one of the outlets  on the wall was connected to different phase?
Wesley

aleks

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Re: Acoustical feedback energy system
« Reply #154 on: April 30, 2023, 03:03:54 PM »
So I understand that  e.g right channel from the sound card was not connected at all .
and only left was used ?
Yes, most probably. That's what common sense tells me at the moment. There was no need to twist output leads together as only a single source signal was needed. That was the whole idea in fact - hexagonal geometry and a single signal source. I now think that 6 speakers in a hexagon were a bit overengineered, but I guess otherwise I would not get big enough energy surge to notice anything. Now I do not think distances (108cm) or the number of speaker pairs are important overall, but to myself it was the only way as I'm not an EE.

Question  about the tee:
The tee you are talking about- was it the electrical extender  allowing from one wall electrical outlet to  have  3 individual  outlets like  T splitter  connected into the 220V outlet that had its own 15A fuse?
Wesley
Yes, it was a simple electrical extender with 15A thermal fuse, the simplest one that costs about 5$ at the moment.


The apartment has 360V input, but as I was doing the experiment in the same room I think both the computer and the speakers were connected to the same 220V phase, just different outlets.

stivep

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Re: Acoustical feedback energy system
« Reply #155 on: April 30, 2023, 03:34:36 PM »
Yes, it was a simple electrical extender with 15A thermal fuse, the simplest one that costs about 5$ at the moment.
The apartment has 360V input, but as I was doing the experiment in the same room I think both the computer and the speakers were connected to the same 220V phase, just different outlets.
Thank you.

The  sound:
Sound is the rapid cycling between compression and rarefaction of air.
The way that sounds move through the air can be thought of as analogous to the way vibrations move along a slinky.
Here is a link to a video in YouTube that provides a nice illustration: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ubRlaCCQfDk
The metal parts of the slinky don’t move from one end to the other.
What does move along the slinky as it vibrates, is the regions where the spring is compressed or stretched out.
The same thing happens when air is compressed for an instant.
The air molecules themselves do not move very far, but wave of high density air moves at the speed of sound, roughly 770 miles per hour.
Two mono speakers feed in phase  have  pressure  longitudinal  wave out of  phase generated.
https://overunity.com/18732/acoustical-feedback-energy-system/msg576868/#msg576868

1.
Exactly in the middle of the distance between the speakers the two pressure waves collides
squeezing air - when the both membranes from the 2 speakers are at OUT  position exactly in the same time.
If we place on the geometrically perfect circle equally spread 6 speakers than all of the 6 pressure waves from the 6 speakers collides
squeezing air - when all membranes of the speakers are at OUT position exactly in the same time.

2. Each pair of speakers was  powered from the same outlet.
   Was it possible that the speakers from the same pair were placed  exactly at opposite sides facing each other?
   Assuming that  each pair of the speakers is  facing each other  and we draw the straight line exactly from the centers of each speaker in between facing each other speakers -
   -was it possible that the speakers from the same pair were placed  in the circle  and their membranes were facing straight at 90 degrees  perpendicular to the
   straight line between them?
Wesley

aleks

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Re: Acoustical feedback energy system
« Reply #156 on: April 30, 2023, 03:40:56 PM »
1.
Exactly in the middle of the distance between the speakers the two pressure waves collides
squeezing air - when the both membranes from the 2 speakers are at OUT  position exactly in the same time.
If we place on the geometrically perfect circle equally spread 6 speakers than all of the 6 pressure waves from the 6 speakers collides
squeezing air - when all membranes of the speakers are at OUT position exactly in the same time.


Sorry, but you are missing the frequency component from your reasoning. They can be in-phase or out-of-phase at a given point in space *depending* on the frequency of the soundwave. There's no much sense to consider the central point as soundwaves mostly do not interact with each other. It's important what the phase is at the point where the diaphragm is located.

Was it possible that the speakers from the same pair were placed  exactly at opposite sides facing each other?
This is an interesting question, but I do not remember exactly. This may or not be important relative to the amplifying cascade. Anyway, for any experimenter there are only two options available, not too much work to find out. As I've replied earlier, I'll retest, and hopefully I'll get a blown fuse again-I've ordered several for replacement.

stivep

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Re: Acoustical feedback energy system
« Reply #157 on: April 30, 2023, 04:00:49 PM »
Sorry, but you are missing the frequency component from your reasoning. They can be in-phase or out-of-phase at a given point in space *depending* on the frequency of the soundwave.
No I'm not.
It may be  a  simple  translation problem. I can write in Russian perfectly well.
Speed of electrical signal in the wire is: 10 8 m/s
speed of the sound  in air is 331 m / s
So if the electrical signal is delivered to  our 6  speakers  than all of them are in phase at any time and frequency  is not important 
By that all of the membranes of the speakers are at exactly the same position at the very same time  or any time even if your power is OFF. .
But all of the mechanical pressure waves created by the membranes of the speakers are out of phase  when compared to the phase of the  electric signals driving them.
It also means that each pair of the two opposing speakers conflicts with each  other squeezing air exactly in the center of the distance between these two.
There is also some mechanical lag - delayed  motion in a mechanism caused by inability to fallow the current change by the moving membrane coil.
if the speakers are exactly the same( from the same batch) we may expect them having similar mechanical properties, But with Chinese it is not the rule. 
My lab test speakers like everything in Boston Dynamic -are made by
Boston Acoustics (American  made.)
Wesley

aleks

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Re: Acoustical feedback energy system
« Reply #158 on: April 30, 2023, 04:28:36 PM »
Speed of electrical signal in the wire is: 10 8 m/s
speed of the sound  in air is 331 m / s
So if the electrical signal is delivered to  our 6  speakers  than all of them are in phase at any time and frequency  is not important 
Well, it's not important how electrical signal is converted to pressure, it may be out-of-phase depending on how speakers were wired. What's important is which phase of the *opposing* soundwave you get on the diaphragms.


I much prefer Genelecs myself. But this is a different kind of application, it does not require full-frequency-range precision. One needs to reproduce just a single sinewave, and for that kind of application any junk loudspeakers can be used.

stivep

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Re: Acoustical feedback energy system
« Reply #159 on: April 30, 2023, 04:57:23 PM »
It also means that the two opposing speakers from each pair conflicts with each other squeezing air exactly
in the center of the distance between these two.
 

Some explanation about  sound:
https://youtu.be/F7D_pnaexG0?t=39
Here is explanation of "0" ("ZERO") sound heard:
https://www.wyzant.com/resources/answers/184521/physics_of_sound_question

Physics of Sound question 
Quote
Two identical loudspeakers emitting the same pure tones (ƒ = 343 Hz)
are facing each other at a distance of 10.0 m. If the speed of sound is 343 m/s, the wavelength λ = 1m.
An observer positioned in the middle between the two speakers hears constructive interference. It can be changed to destructive interference
by moving ______ m towards one of the speakers.

Answer:
Quote
By moving 1/4 or 0.25 meter towards one of the speakers, the observer will experience destructive interference= ZERO sound

The only difference between  noise cancelling  headphones is  that we don't need microphones as we know exactly what we delivered to the speakers.( headsets)
Noise cancellation is made possible by an effect known as phase cancellation. In order to cancel out a sound wave, another sound wave is created in its equal but opposite form.
That is, each peak and valley, or compression and rarefaction, of an incoming audio wavelength is matched with an inverted version of itself at the same amplitude.
During a process known as destructive interference, the unwanted, ambient input then combines with an outbound signal in the shape of its inverse to form a new wave.
So when a listener is enjoying music or a podcast through an active noise-canceling headset, they are hearing their audio content of choice play
over a one-of-a-kind anti-sound wave, curated to their unique surroundings at any given time.
This text is taken from: https://builtin.com/hardware/how-does-noise-canceling-work
Wesley

stivep

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Re: Acoustical feedback energy system
« Reply #160 on: April 30, 2023, 05:01:43 PM »
it may be out-of-phase depending on how speakers were wired.
We are assuming that speakers are connected exactly the same. red to red ,black to black. As you didn't change polarity in your original experiment right?
Well, it's not important how electrical signal is converted to pressure,
We are  collecting information now and not yet  formulating any conclusions
Wesley

aleks

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Re: Acoustical feedback energy system
« Reply #161 on: April 30, 2023, 05:44:23 PM »
We are assuming that speakers are connected exactly the same. red to red ,black to black. As you didn't change polarity in your original experiment right?We are  collecting information now and not yet  formulating any conclusions


Well, I do not know how speakers were actually wired, to begin with, as this requires reverse-engineering, so I would not make any guesses as to which phase the pressure wave has. What's important is they were from the same manufacturer, so most probably they were wired equally.


You've touched the problem of noise-cancellation. And it is an observer-dependent effect. However, the energy from *both* waves is present at the point of observance, at the same time. But as the sum of pressure fields of stochastically-moving air molecules in both directions is zero this is *perceived* as absense of pressure. This is important, and it is also important to understand why I'm insisting that aether is a stochastic medium - it has the same property except scalar pressure field is replaced with complex electromagnetic field.

stivep

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Re: Acoustical feedback energy system
« Reply #162 on: April 30, 2023, 06:57:54 PM »
Dear Alex my time is very well paid in American dollars, and I'm dedicating it  to you for free.
We are not going yet to  the nonsense that makes sense for you.

We may, but not now.

So far we have   probable configuration of :
6 speakers in 3 pairs where  3   power cords were connected to the same electrical outlet 220V 15A fuse protected
Each pair had its own  amplifier .
If we  draw the circle  we would spread them equally on it but each pair of speakers is  facing each other in the straight line
 drown through the center  of the circle.
Computer with the  sound card was connected to  separate outlet presumably from the same electrical phase.

_________________________________________________

Impedance match and load  specification:

In electronics, impedance matching is the practice of designing or adjusting the input impedance or output impedance of an electrical device for a desired value.
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Impedance_matching

load by itself is specified in its general form as:
the quantity that can be carried at one time and also measured quantity of a commodity fixed for each type of carrier.
So  in the electrical outlet we have 220V potential and ZERO current.
The load will be measured by current drown from the outlet  and expressed by European formula P=U x I
 where P is power in W   
U is 220V
and I (current in Amps) is  unknown yet.

So Load  needs enough  power  drown from the electrical outlet .
That has nothing to do with gain or amplification  or number of speakers or feedback
Load is a Load.
But if we don't have purely resistive Load we may expect that  Load  doesn't have fix value.
We know that  the bigger the load the  higher is the current drown from the electrical outlet 220V

So we may project that outlet as a big Russian guy having enough of power to carry on the load needs-
-like  if it was not  some resistive load but a pretty  Ukrainian teenager girl.
She wants this  she wants that, and  the guy happy or not must deliver.
 
Impedance vs changing value of the Load:
That pretty  Ukrainian girl requires  a maintenance  resisting  in many ways if not happy.
In  electronics  the Load can be  purely resistive at 10% but   in many ways if not happy
manifesting additional  capacitive or inductive reactivity at 90%
Your own picture  here: Re: Acoustical feedback energy system shows the transformer
from power supply mounted  in  one of the  every two speakers.
This transformer has   coils- means inductive reactance and  capacitive reactance  of the winding:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Gyrator%E2%80%93capacitor_model
and  you have 3 of these  transformers in your 3 pairs  ( total 6 speakers .)


At resonance, both capacitive and inductive reactance will be equal to each other.
The inductor and capacitor will also be conducting more current at the resonant frequency.
Current flowing across both components is 180° out of phase, which results in a mutually canceling current.
exploring-the-resonant-frequency-of-an-rlc-circuit

So we have  something that looks like short circuit blowing the fuse .
 In other words you didn't have any gain, any magic energy produced,  you  just  sort of shorted the two terminals of that 220V outlet.
And by that  you are the double loser. You can't use your speakers at this   particular frequency and you don't have power in the outlet.
what-is-a-srf-this-is-used-in-ac-power-distribution-system-with-isolation-

Quote
The SRF is the frequency where the capacitive and inductive elements in the system are of equal magnitude and opposite sign.
This leads either to very low  impedances 
The effect is that the system does not work as intended. Keeping SRF well away from the operating frequency is a key design requirement.

To better understand  what I;m talking about  take look at the  DC and AC Relay. or  DC and AC electric door lock - the strike
A DC relay coil has resistance that limits the dc current.
An AC relay coil relies on its impedance for governing the current.
So it has few winds ~10% and ~90% is impedance

If you than decide to connect  the AC relay to DC voltage you will damage it as we speak.
Sometime it will blow in fumes.
because for DC that  relay or that electric lock doesn't  have any impedance - it Doesn't exist.

Additional  factor to know:
SWR of impedance match.
standing wave ratio (SWR) is a measure of impedance matching of loads to the characteristic impedance of a transmission line or waveguide
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_wave_ratio

If we don't want to explain the phenomena with use of   Counter-electromotive force (counter EMF, CEMF, back EMF), - the electromotive force (EMF) manifesting
as a voltage that opposes the change in current which induced it. CEMF is the EMF caused by electromagnetic induction.
we may  use -
The short explanation:
If There is no impedance patch to the load  than part of that energy   is reflected back and impacts the  source of energy   like Transmitter  of RF or the  outlet.
_____________________________________________________________


So you were not producing any magic energy but in  resonance  your power transformer  primary winding  had  more current than your outlet   fuse was able to withhold.
cheap Chinese design - that's all.

Note:
The electronic load  in tests : tests energy sources or energy conversion blocks with static or dynamic loading.

Wesley
« Last Edit: May 01, 2023, 12:18:59 AM by stivep »

aleks

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Re: Acoustical feedback energy system
« Reply #163 on: April 30, 2023, 07:18:02 PM »
Yeah, I expected you would say "short-circuit", nothing new to see here. Except loudspeakers do not short-circuit when no signal is feeded into them, don't you think? From which heights the British unicorns bring you zero resistance in case of an opposing soundwave? And which is not a source of DC current?

aleks

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Re: Acoustical feedback energy system
« Reply #164 on: April 30, 2023, 07:55:35 PM »
weslie, please answer a question: will such loudspeaker (as I've used) short-circuit if the movement of the diaphragm be hardly constrained, or the voice-coil glued to the magnet?