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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: rukiddingme on January 07, 2007, 12:25:05 PM

Title: Energy From Permanent Magnets
Post by: rukiddingme on January 07, 2007, 12:25:05 PM
Hey everybody,

I came up with a design for a magnetic motor that might be over unity.

Could you all have a look and let me know what you think.

Thanks

http://dreamslaughter.com/magforce/magforce.htm (http://dreamslaughter.com/magforce/magforce.htm)
Title: Re: Energy From Permanent Magnets
Post by: iadcw on January 07, 2007, 04:22:24 PM
Looks like a DC motor, with polarities reversed.

Do this in a circular configuration such as electric motor and there is less resistance to mechanical movement to overcome

I've made several piston type models before and they dont work for one very important reason. The explosion in the cylinder of a gas motor is tremendous to cause the piston to travel the 2 or 3 inches it has to move to turn the crank. 2 magnets repulsing or attracting each other, even with 500lbs of force, doesnt come close to the power of the gas explosion and the 'throw or travel' available from peak power of pm's is very short (1/4" to 1/2" tops on big magnets like your talking about. All this just makes it very difficult to create the force needed to overcome the movement needed to turn a crank.



Keep in mind I know very little. All I've done is a lot of experimenting and model building.
Title: Re: Energy From Permanent Magnets
Post by: rukiddingme on January 07, 2007, 05:11:42 PM

I've made several piston type models before and they dont work for one very important reason. The explosion in the cylinder of a gas motor is tremendous to cause the piston to travel the 2 or 3 inches it has to move to turn the crank.

Yes, these pistons only move about 3 centimeters. There is no compression to overcome and very little resistance.

2 magnets repulsing or attracting each other, even with 500lbs of force, doesnt come close to the power of the gas explosion and the 'throw or travel' available from peak power of pm's is very short (1/4" to 1/2" tops on big magnets like your talking about.

Yes, it isn?t as powerful as a gas explosion. The throw travel of the magnets I have are about 3 centimeters. I know this because I can feel it when I bring one of the magnets close to metal. After about 2.5 centimeters it sort of clicks over and the pull is almost irresistible to stop with my hand.


All this just makes it very difficult to create the force needed to overcome the movement needed to turn a crank.

Could be, I don?t know these things, that?s why I?m here. The calcs a professor did for me on how much kinetic energy you get from a magnet of 7100 gauss and a pull force of 231 lbs. came out to be 200 joules per magnet, that?s 400 joules per electromagnet. Seems like that is plenty.

Thanks for the information. Do you know the math on how to determine the kinetic energy you can get from a magnet of 7100 gauss and 231 lbs. pull force, as it approaches a metal target? I would like to verify those results.

Here are the magnets I have:

http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=DY0X0&cat=10 (http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=DY0X0&cat=10)



Title: Re: Energy From Permanent Magnets
Post by: iadcw on January 07, 2007, 05:33:42 PM
I have the same magnet without the NI coating. Very strong. The 231LBS of pull is flat against a 1/4" steel plate. At least thats what the Magnet Supplier tells me.

Thinner steel and distance make a huge difference in the amount of pull (proven by my modeling efforts). Sorry I dont know the math.

Didnt mean to discourage in any way at all. The only way to prove or disprove is build a model.
Title: Re: Energy From Permanent Magnets
Post by: rukiddingme on January 07, 2007, 05:49:19 PM
I have the same magnet without the NI coating. Very strong. The 231LBS of pull is flat against a 1/4" steel plate. At least thats what the Magnet Supplier tells me.

Thinner steel and distance make a huge difference in the amount of pull (proven by my modeling efforts). Sorry I dont know the math.

Didnt mean to discourage in any way at all. The only way to prove or disprove is build a model.

I don't really have the ability to build a model, but it is interesting enough for me to do a few experiments and get assistance to work out the math to prove the concept theoretically. I don't think I can be discouraged, I'm not convinced this will work. I am doing this as a learning experience which is only beneficial.

Thanks for the post.

 :)
Title: Re: Energy From Permanent Magnets
Post by: arbus on January 13, 2007, 11:51:51 AM
Hi, ppl,and
rukiddingme,
I just want to see if i understand the principle. 
the theory behind your idea is that it takes less energy to change the polarity of electromagnet then the kinetik energy of the attracted/repelled magnet.

I am not sure how much energy you need to magnetise the core before it will repel. But worth testing. my guess is that you will end up with a resonating effect that will require more power in then what you get out. Yes similar to an electric motor.

I am doing tests on a similar motor to
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1868.new.html#new
Will try to adapt it to test your theory..??

Ar
 
Title: Re: Energy From Permanent Magnets
Post by: rukiddingme on January 14, 2007, 02:16:30 AM
Hi, ppl,and
rukiddingme,
I just want to see if i understand the principle. 
the theory behind your idea is that it takes less energy to change the polarity of electromagnet then the kinetik energy of the attracted/repelled magnet.

Yes, except there is no repelling going on, the force from the EM is only enough to release the magnetic grip, not a repelling force. We don?t have to run the electromagnet up to an ?equal? magnet, we only have to create an electromagnet with enough force to release the magnetic grip.

I am not sure how much energy you need to magnetise the core before it will repel. But worth testing. my guess is that you will end up with a resonating effect that will require more power in then what you get out. Yes similar to an electric motor.

Could you explain what you mean by "a resonating effect"? Do you mean induction?

Yes, I agree. The test I have planned is to hang an EM (ElectroMagnet) vertically. Attach good sized PMs (Permanent Magnet) to the top and bottom of the EM (be careful) so that different polarities of the PMs are attached to the non magnetized metal core of the EM. Apply current until the bottom magnet falls off. Be careful, you have to have the polarity of the EM match the polarities of the PMs. Measure that current and write it down.

Make sure you put a .5 millimeter or so piece of plastic or wood between the EMs and the PMs. We don?t want to have physical contact; we don?t want an exchange of electrons. I only think this instinctively, it may be just the opposite. It may be we want electrons to flow. In that case we would need to design it so that the PM doesn?t strike the EM but a contact device is put into the piston unit to make electrical contact between the EM and the PM.

The next experiment is to set up the magnets as above and send just a current ?pulse? of a certain length. We really need just a pulse and the length of that pulse is important. This way we can measure the watt seconds used to release the magnet. This isn?t exactly true, because the pull of the PM away from the EM by the crankshaft acts faster than the natural pull of gravity, but it will give how many watt seconds it takes to release the grip.

We want to match the dissipation of the magnetic field created in the EM to the speed the PM is moving away from the EM. We need to have a sawtooth force happening so the release happens over the length of the retraction; the dissipating magnetic field?s sawtooth shape should nicely match the retraction distances of the PM at the proper RPM.

Remember we don?t want to create an equal and opposite force, all we want to do is create a force enough to release the magnetic grip.

The weight of the PMs is 193 grams. The pull force surface field of the magnets I have is 76514 grams. Gravity acting on the PM to cause it to fall is almost insignificant compared to the pull force. And unless you match this dissipation with the retraction, the natural pull of the PM will interfere. So it should be somewhat of a usable test, but flawed until we match the speed of the retraction with the dissipation of the EM?s temporary magnetic field. The RPMs of the crank needs to be so the retraction of the piston matches the pulse and dissipation of the EM field. I hope to do an experiment to determine the length and amount of the dissipation.

I am doing tests on a similar motor to
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1868.new.html#new
Will try to adapt it to test your theory..??

Ar
 

Excellent, thank you. I have a meeting on Monday with a theoretical physicist to redo the calculation on how many joules we get from a PM approaching a metal target. I?ll post them here when I get them. His first calculations showed that we get 200 joules per magnet strike or 400 joules per pair of PMs and EM. I think this is off by a decimal place. We will see. I can?t believe that this is true since it only takes about 5 watts to create an equal force in an EM.

Here?s the electromagnet (click on ?Round Electromagnets?):

http://www.adamsmagnetic.com/d_electro.php

Here?s the permanent magnet:

http://www.kjmagnetics.com/proddetail.asp?prod=DY0X0



Title: Re: Energy From Permanent Magnets
Post by: rukiddingme on January 15, 2007, 02:16:20 AM
Peter,

Here's a gif:

<a href="http://dreamslaughter.com/magforce/MagGen 00.gif"> <img src="http://dreamslaughter.com/magforce/MagGen 01.gif></a>
Click image to enlarge.


Hope this helps.

Title: Re: Energy From Permanent Magnets
Post by: rukiddingme on January 15, 2007, 02:35:17 AM


The piston movement distance needs to be a little bit more than the active field of the PM. If you hold the magnets you are using from a piece of metal you can feel where the active attraction sort of clicks over and it turns into a strong palpable feeling. A little bit more than that distance is what the piston has to move. You want to have the PM clear that field for a moment before it starts back.
needs to be a little bit more than the active field of the PM
Title: Re: Energy From Permanent Magnets
Post by: tropes on January 15, 2007, 02:54:37 AM
RUKIDD
Why should the guide rods go all the way through? The pistons are already built and I just built 6 guide rods today.
See http://www.eebeh.com/opm.html
Peter
Title: Re: Energy From Permanent Magnets
Post by: rukiddingme on January 15, 2007, 03:03:41 AM
I was thinking just for the added support. If more support is needed, just attach the corners of the support plates with angle iron. lol, don't let me distract you. I need to remember that you need to work with what you have and I can't prototype things.
Title: Re: Energy From Permanent Magnets
Post by: tropes on January 15, 2007, 03:13:03 AM
The added support comes from the plates on either side of the coil being attached to the top of the motor. I used this system for the single piston motor I built. See http://www.eebeh.com/piston.html
Peter
Title: Re: Energy From Permanent Magnets
Post by: rukiddingme on January 15, 2007, 03:18:28 AM
Yes, I understand now.

It all looks good.

Very impressive.

   8)
Title: Re: Energy From Permanent Magnets
Post by: rukiddingme on January 15, 2007, 09:33:54 PM

Here?s the device that I am talking about:

<a href="http://dreamslaughter.com/magforce/image004.gif"> <img src="http://dreamslaughter.com/magforce/image004.gif ></a>


Here?s an Isometric view.


<a href="http://dreamslaughter.com/magforce/image006.gif"> <img src="http://dreamslaughter.com/magforce/image006.gif ></a> 


Thanks.
Title: Re: Energy From Permanent Magnets
Post by: rukiddingme on January 18, 2007, 09:29:41 AM
Here's a couple of images of tropes mechanical design of this idea.

<a href="http://dreamslaughter.com/magforce/peter array 11 print.jpg"> <img src="http://dreamslaughter.com/magforce/peter array 11 print thumb.jpg></a>
Click image to enlarge.


<a href="http://dreamslaughter.com/magforce/peter array 11 cell print.jpg"> <img src="http://dreamslaughter.com/magforce/peter array 11 cell print thumb.jpg></a>
Click image to enlarge.




Title: Re: Energy From Permanent Magnets
Post by: tropes on January 18, 2007, 03:52:27 PM
xxx
Title: Re: Energy From Permanent Magnets
Post by: Craigy on January 18, 2007, 10:10:01 PM
Nice work, always nice to see people testing ideas for themselves.

I have a posting in the steorn section, about i model i built, and someone suggested i use

http://www.atcaonline.com/coinrelay.html

to power the stator, now this is not exactly the same as your ideas , but it has some similarities, i.e. a magnet is effectively attracted / repulsed from 2 electromagnets...

Regards

Craig
Title: Re: Energy From Permanent Magnets
Post by: tropes on January 18, 2007, 10:39:58 PM
Thanks Craigy. That's another interesting use of permanent magnets and some good links.
BTW I own a Northern Electric Telephone patent 1906. Unfortunately, the ear piece is cracked but I am willing to trade for magnets, coils,...
Peter