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Solid States Devices => Kapanadze devices and replications => Topic started by: AlienGrey on November 13, 2020, 10:37:08 PM

Title: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: AlienGrey on November 13, 2020, 10:37:08 PM
Getting back to Chinese oscillator FET Driver circuit.
I striped down a XT power supply and re wound one of the smaller miniature long E core
'soft' ferrox former and re tested and it produces a perfect sine wave @62.5khz

Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: ramset on November 14, 2020, 02:37:12 PM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=jtKnXeJ0VEg (https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=jtKnXeJ0VEg)


AG
This is the Device in thread tittle above !
Or is that something else ?
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: AlienGrey on November 14, 2020, 05:42:35 PM
Chet it is the same thing. Chet we need some feed back from Stefan and a thread creating for me to copy
the series of instruction picks into with some sort of disclosure statement, it might be this the problem.

pinching bits of it is one thing we can do but the sauce now expect folk to pay them for it.

In that case Stefan might have another way of solving the problem

AG

Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: ramset on November 14, 2020, 05:52:50 PM
Not getting any reply from Stefan either


Honestly been hard  to reach him last year or more
Even worse since Covid


I will try to ring him





Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: ramset on November 14, 2020, 08:40:55 PM
No answer from Stefan


Left message on possible problem?


Maybe split topic ?


β€œArt” in one place


And Discussion or β€œ critique β€œ Here


?
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: AlienGrey on November 14, 2020, 09:03:12 PM
yes what ever you want to play it as!

there was another video where he goes out on location and uses it to cook his prawns and noodles
wow! great if it works like he shows.
wonder if any one else has any more of his vids from when any one could view FREE ?

AG
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: ramset on November 16, 2020, 01:10:03 AM
Jimboot collated the Art into some files over here
https://overunity.com/18708/placeholder-for-new-year-holiday-ornament-making-moderated/msg553197/#new (https://overunity.com/18708/placeholder-for-new-year-holiday-ornament-making-moderated/msg553197/#new)
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: AlienGrey on November 18, 2020, 10:50:34 PM
Chet 'the cores he doesn't give any info on them the bar cores are the softer type not the ceramic type
the E cores looks like the ones out of old XP power supply.

The grenade style gr coil I think i would try a pile of rings end to end about 26mm dia the wire he used was Teflon coated
stuff out side dia is about 1,5 mm for the blue wire and the white is about 2mm outside dia to fit in the spaces.

I would have thought some bright spark would have got it going by now

Hasn't any one else got or down load's any of the old vids ?


AG
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: AlienGrey on November 18, 2020, 11:05:01 PM
Note the above scope shot is just the 13001 oscillator driver stage I was thinking it was much like the dally Ruslan circuit
L havent made one of them mu self the lock down came and that was that! but it has no high voltage katcher wound coil !



AG
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: ramset on November 19, 2020, 01:30:25 AM
Thank you for some info


I am traveling / working ATM ...thru beautiful Covid capital
....NYC ( not a happy place ATM)


Will ask a few more questions when I get home
Tonight/tomorrow .


This topic has most info... a few key points need addressing


IMO


Respectfully
Chet K


Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: Jeg on December 05, 2020, 10:20:10 AM
Guys, does anyone know how those machines work? It says 230V/50Hz but i feed it with alternating dc at 110KHz and seems that it works normally. What is the catch here? Are we talking about dc motors with a bridge at their input? ::)

In addition, i would like your help on the following.
We see at the china-kapa device that the 28T output of the zvs ferrite transformer, is in series with a cap and an output transformer. The input zvs inductors are of 5 turns each. So 24V/5T=4,8Volts per turn. So 28T X 4,8V equals 134V peak. My oscilloscope here shows almost 200V peak. Why is that? Is it due to accumulation of voltage cycle per cycle? And if this is true then do you think it is possible to raise voltage even more across the 28T coil without adding more turns to it? What the maximum voltage at this point depends of?

Thanks :)
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: AlienGrey on December 05, 2020, 11:26:14 AM
Guys, does anyone know how those machines work? It says 230V/50Hz but i feed it with alternating dc at 110KHz and seems that it works normally. What is the catch here? Are we talking about dc motors with a bridge at their input? ::)

In addition, i would like your help on the following.
We see at the china-kapa device that the 28T output of the zvs ferrite transformer, is in series with a cap and an output transformer. The input zvs inductors are of 5 turns each. So 24V/5T=4,8Volts per turn. So 28T X 4,8V equals 134V peak. My oscilloscope here shows almost 200V peak. Why is that? Is it due to accumulation of voltage cycle per cycle? And if this is true then do you think it is possible to raise voltage even more across the 28T coil without adding more turns to it? What the maximum voltage at this point depends of?

Thanks :)
Do you think you might be missing some thing ?  I think the fets are feeding a very loose coupled magnetic coupling across the ferrite core and also the cap isn't any old value it has to be tuned to match the two inductance's do that and see how far you can get. Lx = Cx the play ground swing perhaps.

Also when the guy was winding the coils I also noticed both sides of the wingdings were not equal or was it an illusion.

AG
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: AlienGrey on December 05, 2020, 11:29:28 AM
 One other thing the jig saw is inductive shouldn't it be a restive load ?
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: Jeg on December 05, 2020, 11:39:53 AM
Do you think you might be missing some thing ?  I think the fets are feeding a very loose coupled magnetic coupling across the ferrite core and also the cap isn't any old value it has to be tuned to match the two inductance's do that and see how far you can get. Lx = Cx the play ground swing perhaps.

Also when the guy was winding the coils I also noticed both sides of the wingdings were not equal or was it an illusion.
Hi AG
I don't understand what you mean about loose coupling. It doesn't look loose to me at all. Of course when it is in resonance, then Lx=Cx which gives rise to current. Shouldn't voltage have to follow the turns ratio thing?

About the Chineese's number of turns, there is only one turn difference between left and right coils. 50T and 49T. Not a big difference. The middle coils are of 48T each.

One other thing the jig saw is inductive shouldn't it be a restive load ?

Why to use only resistive loads and not inductive ones? It works with both kinds. But behaves better by using inductive loads. Meaning that COP is higher with inductive loads in this inverter.
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: synchro1 on December 05, 2020, 01:11:01 PM
Packing the PVC core with magnetite composit would be much simpler then shaping that rectangular job right?

There is really not much to this build; The coils are household wire! What kind of advantage would there be in building a ferrite core with blocks? Permeability can be controlled with particulate ratio.
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: Jeg on December 05, 2020, 01:46:20 PM
Packing the PVC core with magnetite composit would be much simpler then shaping that rectangular job right?

There its really not much to this build; The coils are household wire! What kind of advantage would there be in building a ferrite core with blocks? Permeability can be controlled with particulate ratio.

Yes this is true. Only the total ohmic resistance will change. I used ferrite rings for this task.

What is your opinion on the voltage across the 28T coil? Should it give a voltage level depending on the turns ratio, or it also depends on other factors due to the in series resonance?
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: synchro1 on December 05, 2020, 01:53:04 PM
Yes this is true. Only the total ohmic resistance will change. I used ferrite rings for this task.

What is your opinion on the voltage across the 28T coil? Should it give a voltage level depending on the turns ratio, or it also depends on other factors due to the in series resonance?

That shift in voltage could be caused by incorrect grounding of your oscilloscope. How is the scope grounded?
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: Jeg on December 05, 2020, 01:55:06 PM
Yes it is grounded but now that you say it i will check again. My Rigol's probes are all grounded.

Ahh do you think it is because we have a zvs driver? The primaries are in a parallel tank circuit which gives rise to voltage. Perhaps that is the reason.
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: synchro1 on December 05, 2020, 02:04:40 PM
Yes it is grounded but now that you say it i will check again. My Rigol's probes are all grounded.

Ahh do you think it is because we have a zvs driver? The primaries are in a parallel tank circuit which gives rise to voltage. Perhaps that is the reason.


If you are reading voltage off the 28T coil, that coil itself needs to be independently scope grounded to get an actual measurement.
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: Jeg on December 05, 2020, 02:06:17 PM

If you are reading voltage off the 28T coil, that coil needs to be grounded to get an actual measurement.

Yes i have connected one side of it to the negative of the pwr sup and also to the ground through the probe's alligator clip if this is what you mean.
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: synchro1 on December 05, 2020, 02:08:36 PM
Yes i have connected one side of it to the negative of the pwr sup and also to the ground through the probe's alligator clip if this is what you mean.


Resonance must account for it. That kind of voltage is illusary.
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: Jeg on December 05, 2020, 02:13:28 PM

Resonance must account for it.

I'll change resonant point to lower values than 110Khz, to see its reaction. If i could step up the voltage across the 28T without raising the input voltage or the turns of the secondary, i might reach the result of the Chineese in terms of performance. Across 28T i measure 400V peak to peak, but Chineese's device might be well more than this.
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: synchro1 on December 05, 2020, 02:16:47 PM
I'll change resonant point to lower values than 110Khz, to see its reaction. If i could step up the voltage across the 28T without raising the input voltage or the turns of the secondary, i might reach the result of the Chineese in terms of performance. Across 28T i measure 400V peak to peak, but Chineese's device might be well more than this.


The capacitor tuning for high "Q" is where you get the advantage. Do you have a tuner connected to your capacitor?
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: Jeg on December 05, 2020, 02:19:56 PM

The capacitor tuning for high "Q" is where you get the advantage.

Nice point!!! I just don't know how to increase the Q of the primary side when using just 5T per primary. I'll make some calcs more to see. Perhaps his ferite core is more suitable than mine's. I use just a simple yoke core.
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: synchro1 on December 05, 2020, 02:21:48 PM
Nice point!!! I just don't know how to increase the Q of the primary side when using just 5T per primary. I'll make some calcs more to see. Perhaps his ferite core is more suitable than mine's. I use just a simple yoke core.


You need a tuner cap! There's an 8000 volt .022uf capacitor in the schematic. That's the trimmer cap! You got it to ring, but any further resonant voltage rise would be a consequence of the trimmer capacitor adjustment for "Q" in micro farads. 
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: Jeg on December 05, 2020, 02:33:02 PM

You need a tuner!

Thanks, i'll think more about it. The other solution is to make a peak shorting across the 28T to raise its voltage as much as i can. For now i am just trying to go as per Chineese circuit. Even if there is a fat chance that the Chineese hides something in his contraption like a HV converter module. It is not possible with the given circuit to reach 200V across a 2KW induction cook like the Chineese shows.
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: Jeg on December 05, 2020, 02:37:04 PM

You need a tuner cap! There's an 8000 volt .022uf capacitor in the schematic.

Exactly. This is an indication that we have HV running inside his tank circuit. I can't reach a higher than 400V pk-pk. I also use an input choke to my ZVS driver. The Chineese doesn't.
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: synchro1 on December 05, 2020, 02:49:17 PM
The "Gimmick" is that the designer matched a household wire coil to a resonant capacitor and tuner all in correct proportion to deliver a very high "Q"!

The high 8000 voltage rating does not prevent the trimmer from working in the lower voltage ranges; However, when tuning for "Q", these voltages develop between the capacitor plates. The trimmer is nothing like an ordinary butterfly capacitor.


The coil turns and primary capacitor are matched sufficiently to produce a basic resonance that the fine tuner capacitor can operate on. Ordinary variable capacitors will burn out too soon.
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: color on December 05, 2020, 02:50:54 PM
Thanks, i'll think more about it. The other solution is to make a peak shorting across the 28T to raise its voltage as much as i can. For now i am just trying to go as per Chineese circuit. Even if there is a fat chance that the Chineese hides something in his contraption like a HV converter module. It is not possible with the given circuit to reach 200V across a 2KW induction cook like the Chineese shows.

Exactly. This is an indication that we have HV running inside his tank circuit. I can't reach a higher than 400V pk-pk. I also use an input choke to my ZVS driver. The Chineese doesn't.

================

My dad learned a lot from you.
Even small Yoke-transformers have little effect on the output.
Note please.
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: NickZ on December 05, 2020, 02:52:18 PM
   Jeg:   Do you guys have a picture or video of what you are trying to replicate? Or, your version of it?
   Is this circuit being discussed here supposed to be  OU, or self runner?
    NickZ
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: synchro1 on December 05, 2020, 02:59:58 PM
There should be a diagonal slash between the schematic lines for variable uf capacitor. Placing a fixed uf rated capacitor at that location in the circuit would be worthless! Only by fine tuning LC tank resonance in micro farads from this tiny specially designed capacitor tuner can the higher voltages be achieved!
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: Jeg on December 05, 2020, 03:01:16 PM
   Jeg:   Do you guys have a picture or video of what you are trying to replicate? Or, your version of it?
   Is this circuit being discussed here supposed to be  OU, or self runner?
    NickZ

Hi Nick
No. We don't suppose anything yet. Personally i was very amazed of the fact that the inventor works KW loads with just a simple inverter circuit and i am trying to replicate his performance. After that, we can talk about what it is! ;)

Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: Jeg on December 05, 2020, 03:02:16 PM
There should be a diagonal slash between the schematic lines for variable uf capacitor. Placing a fixed uf rated capacitor at that location in the circuit would be worthless! Only by fine tuning LC tank micro farads can the higher voltages be achieved!
His capacitor is fixed. You can see it in the pictures.
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: synchro1 on December 05, 2020, 03:07:00 PM
His capacitor is fixed. You can see it in the pictures.


The inventor refers to tuning the capacitance. How would he go about that?
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: Jeg on December 05, 2020, 03:11:46 PM

The inventor refers to tuning the capacitance. How would he go about that?

You know how. The difficult way. Adding more and more capacitance until to reach resonance.

Check my video for a quick reference.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=RgST8y5xakE
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: synchro1 on December 05, 2020, 03:17:48 PM
Fantastic build! Can you spot the tiny cap in this photo? Just maybe you could squeak a few extra volts out of it with a small adjustment advantage there? 1300 watts is awesome. It would take a 2 horsepower gasoline motor to generate that kind of power!
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: Jeg on December 05, 2020, 03:24:33 PM
Fantastic build! Can you spot the tiny cap in this photo?
The two horizontal small caps are in the primary side. 0,47uF each. Total c=94nF
The big one which stands vertical is the 8000V/22nF and it resonates in series with the 28T and the output trans.

ps. guys i have to go at work. See u later :)
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: synchro1 on December 05, 2020, 04:26:08 PM
The addition of a high voltage trimmer capacitor in parralell with the 8000V capacitor would allow for finer tuning to higher "Q" and consequently higher voltage. Results are already awesome!

I bet the Chinese inventor burned a trimmer cap out fishing for high "Q" then replaced it with the two additional 0.47uf resonators. You may need to start over to find the correct combination.

Merely a few centimeters difference in coil wire length can offset the LC "Q" enough to reqire an adjustment in the picofarad range. Fine tuning can double the tank voltage!

This is like getting real power from VARS. Phase angle Voodoo? I wonder if power would rise to meet the load if you put the reciprocal saw to work?
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: synchro1 on December 05, 2020, 09:24:36 PM
JLN boiled water with a hot plate sheerly with induction between two bifilar pancake coils with no wire connection between the primary and the output coil. The Chinese invention uses 4 coils with induction between the primary and the output coils too.
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: synchro1 on December 05, 2020, 09:26:29 PM
I think the ground is acting as an antenna and the power is broadcast. Stiffler's Slayer Tesla coil will illuminate LEDS from the ground like Lidmotor demonstrated. The power is probably running the saw backwards.
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: magpwr on December 06, 2020, 06:49:06 AM
https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=jtKnXeJ0VEg (https://m.youtube.com/watch?feature=youtu.be&v=jtKnXeJ0VEg)


AG
This is the Device in thread tittle above !
Or is that something else ?
Hi,
I have assume you guys already know that youtube can do translation of Russian,Chinese and etc video with English subtitles provided you duplicate the video and give youtube money for a good technical translation.
My Mandarin  studied in school outside of China never taught technical,components,computer parts definition in Chinese.It is just one of the 4 languages i acquired.  :D
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: synchro1 on December 06, 2020, 10:59:53 AM
The Dielectric field is powering the loads. JEG's illuminated bulb should stay lit submerged in water!
Tesla's Hairpin circuit plays the same trick capacitively. Master Ivo's setup amounts to basically the same thing.
The power is not traveling through the wires as current but through the capacitive shell as voltage!
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: synchro1 on December 06, 2020, 12:53:16 PM
The challenge for JEG is to try and run his Black and Decker jig saw underwater!
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: Jeg on December 06, 2020, 01:11:17 PM
The addition of a high voltage trimmer capacitor in parralell with the 8000V capacitor would allow for finer tuning to higher "Q" and consequently higher voltage. Results are already awesome!

I bet the Chinese inventor burned a trimmer cap out fishing for high "Q" then replaced it with the two additional 0.47uf resonators. You may need to start over to find the correct combination.

Merely a few centimeters difference in coil wire length can offset the LC "Q" enough to reqire an adjustment in the picofarad range. Fine tuning can double the tank voltage!

This is like getting real power from VARS. Phase angle Voodoo? I wonder if power would rise to meet the load if you put the reciprocal saw to work?

Hi Synchro
The Chineese eng. use two caps of 0,047uF (not 0,47uF as i wrote above) in parallel with his ZVS primaries, total input capacity of 94nF/2000V. The in series cap is of 22nF/8000v capacity. In my case, by using a 100nF at the input, it rings at 110KHz. I needed a 10nF-12nF capacitor at the resonant circuit to tune. I was thinking to match the impedances between the separate circuits by using Don Smith's nomograph. (I attach it below). But the Chineese seems that he didn't bother with that. Nevertheless he feeds successively a 2KW load running it at 198-200Volts!!! So according to what i see on my bench, he might has a secret ingredient which is hidden!!??

The fine tuning is off of the table for me. Each load you add, changes the resonant point of the tank circuit! If i was to match the impedances by using the nomograph, i would have to go down to 30-35KHz to meet a 30-50 ohm impedance which suggests a load of about 1.5KW. But clearly this is not the point. The capacitors he uses suggest an impedance of about 100-150 ohm. Something doesn't fit here. So everything point out that the Chineese uses a separate technique to raise his voltage across the tank circuit. Time will show. :)
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: MasterPlaster on December 06, 2020, 01:42:10 PM
I think the frequency can be easily varied by the 2000v0.094uF.
Title: Re: Chinese Oscillator and MOS FET Driver, Hardware experiment
Post by: synchro1 on December 06, 2020, 09:11:55 PM
A potentiometer controlled Varicap diode may help.