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Author Topic: Do commercial motors/generators produce eddies, why do builders build their own?  (Read 2349 times)

Offline AllanV

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Hi Allan,
What you claim about the pumped water example is not due to inefficiency of the electric dynamos (motor and generator). Pumped hydro is a legitimate method of grid scale energy buffering or storage with efficiencies comparable to other methods like batteries and is considered where terrain is favorable.

Your example of the steel attraction to the electromagnet after it is de energized sounds like simple residual magnetism. The effect would be more pronounced using a harder iron (magnetically speaking) rather than transformer laminations which which are magnetically soft to minimize hysteresis core loss.

If you feel can improve current electromechanical energy conversion technology, go for it. I feel you're mistaken about generators and motors suffering some problem due to being built wrong. But you're entitled to opinion.

Regards,
bi

Hi bi,

Thanks for your reply.

The problem with hydro a head is required to give enough velocity to the water. The turbines are said to be over 90% efficient but this must be according to what is extracted from the velocity loss which must not drop to much.
The amount of water to produce 1Kwh is about 90tonnes with a 30meter head which is about 25liters/sec. If this force of water was applied directly into a Tesla turbine with 10inch (250mm) discs the output would be very large. It could be worked out, easy.

It is a simple fact, 10,000 tonnes of water are required to move 9 tonnes of crushed rock up a track. Water has huge power through gravity and if used directly using two containers, a pulley and a wire rope a little more than 9tonne would be required.
It sounds a bit like the joke about the brick layers laborer attempting to get the bricks to the top of the building. Oh well.

A vehicle is constructed but there seems little sense in using stored water, losses in the electric grid and then battery storage as well.

As far as motor design is concerned whether it is called residual or eddy currents the net result is the same. A large voltage is required to over come the effects. Once the magnetic circuit is closed tight perhaps eddie currents are sustained and become a residual effect. In an AC sine wave system both will need to reverse.
With a gap in the magnetic circuit the eddies are not self sustaining at the strongest level.

Leedskalnin: Man of Magnets built the magnetic holder and even after a long period of time has passed there is a voltage produced in a copper winding when the magnetic circuit is broken.

This is part of transformer action and it can be demonstrated that it is the driving down of the residual magnetism into the opposite polarity that gives the best output.
Motors are the same in one sense. The magnetism does work on the rotor and when the field collapses it draws current. AC sine wave will draw excessive current at a high voltage in relation to the amount of work done. The electric circuit needs to be cut. A residual effect with eddie currents remains and needs a reverse pulse to repel the rotor instead of drag.
The electric motor and generator are half built and there is another half required for both of them.

Many people have studied and reflected on the design problem and it is not opinion that drives the understanding.

All the best,

Allan   

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Floor

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There are, (besides voltage, amperage and resistance, OHMS law) the factors, of reluctance and reactance when dealing with changes in voltage / amperage.

1. Voltage leads,  current in time.  In other words, when a voltage (an electric potential difference) along a conductor changes (either increases or decreases), there is a very small time delay of the resulting current flow, (as either increase or decrease).  The change in the amount of amperage (current flow) does not occur absolutely simultaneously to the change in voltage. The voltage change is quicker.

2. That current flow starts as zero and increases to some maximum.  This change in current is along a time / magnitude of the current, curve.

3. While the current flowing through a conductor is increasing in magnitude, the magnetic field around that conductor (which is present as a result of the current flow) is expanding.

4. That expanding / increasing magnetic field around the conductor, also lags in time, behind the rate of the change in the applied voltage.

5. If the voltage is shut off, the electric current flow does not stop instantly.  The current flow persists (briefly). This is analogous (some what) to the momentum of a "regular world" object requiring some amount of time to come to a stop after a force propelling it ends.  It like a kind of momentum.

6. 3. While the current flowing through a conductor is decreasing in magnitude, the magnetic field around that conductor (which is present as a result of the current flow) is also decreasing.

7. 4. That shrinking / decreasing magnetic field around the conductor, also lags in time, behind the rate of the change in the applied voltage.

8. If we pass a conductor through a magnetic field, an electric voltage arises in that conductor and
this, in turn,  causes an electric current to flow through that conductor.  Note that we can instead,
pass a magnetic field through a conductor.

9. A magnetic field  that is expanding (or contracting) (around a conductor), is in a kind of motion, in relationship to the / a conductor.  Even when that electric current (flowing through the conductor), is the cause of that magnetic field (to begin with).

10. While the magnetic field around a conductor is expanding, it generates an electric current in that conductor which is in the same direction as the original current.

11. Once the voltage is shut off, the electric current (and voltage) generated by the collapse of the magnetic field around the conductor, is in the opposite direction of the original current flow, ( a back spike).

12. Forming wire into a coil can affects the impedance and reactance.  But placing a core within the
coil can profoundly affect the impedance and the reactance. 
Example...
   An iron object acquires a net magnetic field, due to a net alignment of atomic / molecular elements / structures within that iron object.

An applied (to the iron object) external magnetic field (from a current through a coil) can generate a net magnetic field which far exceeds the field produced by the coil alone.

The speed with which atoms and molecules within an iron object, can magnetically align / un align is
slow compared to the rapidness the applied magnetic field ( from the coil) can change.  Actual real world objects (atoms) have very real / large momentum potentials, as compared to the photons / magnetic field of the coils magnetic field. 

13.  All this is related to / involved in, hysteresis losses but considred seperatly.

  floor

Offline onepower

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Bistander
I am aware many call the generator braking effect the Lorentz force or Lenz Law. However many of the most credible Free Energy inventors with working technology called it an eddy current generator.

In fact the generator induced current direction and magnitude are the same as an eddy current following the same rules so I also chose to call it what it is...an eddy current generator.

Strange isn't it?, people choose to build generators designed to produce the most opposition to the input as a braking action. That is how all the successful FE inventors described it. People just keep repeating what others do and don't seem to have the capacity to analyze the true nature of the problem.

So yes, I call it what it is, an eddy current generator designed to produce a braking force equal to the input which is kind of absurd when we think about it.

Regards


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Offline bistander

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Bistander
I am aware many call the generator braking effect the Lorentz force or Lenz Law. However many of the most credible Free Energy inventors with working technology called it an eddy current generator.
<snip>

onepower,
From the first sentence in this thread: "Do commercially available motors/generators produce electromagnetic-eddies/drag,". Note word 'commercially'. He/she didn't inquire about Free Energy motors/generators, of which none exist.

And where would I find one of those whom you refer to as "credible* FE inventors"? I'd like to approach him/her with a few questions including why the definition of eddy current differs from mainstream physics. I was taught the eddy current was the current flowing in single turn shorted path or loop existing in conductive material experiencing changing magnetic field caused by induction. Load current, even at short circuit, in generator coils is not an eddy current.

It's unfortunate and confusing when FE inventors choose to apply existing terminology to different attributes. I don't think you do the OP any favors using your definition. Besides you, where might he/she go to find this particular definition of eddy current?

Regards,
bi

*edit --- fixed quote (sorry for mistake)
« Last Edit: October 13, 2020, 04:07:41 AM by bistander »

Offline AllanV

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Builders would be attempting to reduce the drag on the rotor by building their own motor.

One Adam's design used the rotor magnet's attraction to the stator pole for rotation. A short pulse was activated to repel the magnet as it crossed the stator pole.  Another coil was positioned precisely, close to the driving stator pole for a generated output. 
A refinement was to have a magnet width less than the stator pole.

Most devices have a small output and the dimensions and weight are out of proportion to any small gain.

Eric Roberts Laithwaite was a British electrical engineer, known as the "Father of Maglev" for his development of the linear induction motor and maglev rail system.
A British citizen who liked gyroscopic forces and magnetic repulsion.
He built a long laminated steel rod with a winding and on one end cut a slot and embedded a solid conductor. A 2cm metal disc would be repelled very strongly when the coil was energized.

A motor could be built to first attract and then instantly repel and this works well in an induction motor.

A standard 415 volt 5Kw 3phase motor can be set up to run on 75-100volts single phase and 0.05A (5watts). A separate inductor and capacitors create a phase shift that would only usually occur when the motor is accelerating. This creates more magnetism and the motor will run at 1498-1499rpm on 50Hz. Out put load test was not performed and the fan was removed. The rotor shaft became warm.


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Offline onepower

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bistander
Quote
From the first sentence in this thread: "Do commercially available motors/generators produce electromagnetic-eddies/drag,". Note word 'commercially'. He/she didn't inquire about Free Energy motors/generators, of which none exist.

I could use the populist argument that you can't prove none exist but that would be lame.
However I have seen working FE devices and know other credible people who have as well. So I would simply say so far as your concerned none exist and apparently were okay with that.

Quote
And where would I find one of those whom you refer to as "credible* FE inventors"? I'd like to approach him/her with a few questions including why the definition of eddy current differs from mainstream physics. I was taught the eddy current was the current flowing in single turn shorted path or loop existing in conductive material experiencing changing magnetic field caused by induction. Load current, even at short circuit, in generator coils is not an eddy current.

A coil or any conductive path which is closed whether it is one loop or one thousand produces the same result as an eddy current. It's important to understand the science with respect to cause and effect. The forces and effects in an induced coil are the same as eddy currents in a plate. A changing magnetic field induces an electron current in a conductive material like a plate or closed coil of wire which produces an opposition or breaking action on the magnetic field which induced it. I could wind a square coil or any shape or weld the turns together and the breaking action is still present if the electron current path is closed or circular ergo... same effect.

Quote
It's unfortunate and confusing when FE inventors choose to apply existing terminology to different attributes. I don't think you do the OP any favors using your definition. Besides you, where might he/she go to find this particular definition of eddy current?

It's debatable, when I understood our generators are based on the the same effect as eddy currents producing the same braking action the effect on me was profound. I then went on to do experiments to prove it using different kinds of coil, plate and core geometries. It also proved to me this kind of setup is a waste of time which saved me months maybe years of research. After I determined this kind of induction geometry always produces a breaking force I looked for alternatives which eventually led to better ways of doing things. I have always found intuition and hands on experiments are the best way to make real progress.

Regards

Offline bistander

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bistander
<snip>
After I determined this kind of induction geometry always produces a breaking force I looked for alternatives which eventually led to better ways of doing things. I have always found intuition and hands on experiments are the best way to make real progress.

Regards

Please share your better way.

Regards,
bi

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Offline Cadman

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Please share your better way.

Regards,
bi

I believe he did back in 2008 on that other forum. There was a short mention of it here. https://overunity.com/12086/kornelsons-free-energy-transformer/

But what do I know, I'm just an uneducated ignoramus.

Offline bistander

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I believe he did back in 2008 on that other forum. There was a short mention of it here. https://overunity.com/12086/kornelsons-free-energy-transformer/

But what do I know, I'm just an uneducated ignoramus.

Thanks Cadman,
And I did not call you those names. I said you need to improve your basic knowledge of electricity due to your statement "If the entire amount of electrical energy was converted into mechanical energy, there would be nothing coming out on the negative terminal of your motor. 0 volts, 0 current."
Regards,
bi

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Cadman

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Thanks Cadman,
And I did not call you those names. I said you need to improve your basic knowledge of electricity due to your statement "If the entire amount of electrical energy was converted into mechanical energy, there would be nothing coming out on the negative terminal of your motor. 0 volts, 0 current."
Regards,
bi

Interesting that you knew exactly what, where and when my words pertained to. I never said you called me names. You implied it, “Educate yourself”. Anyone who is uneducated is by definition, ignorant.

BTW, the sentence you quoted was written by me to point out the absurdity of thinking that all electrical energy going through a DC motor was converted into mechanical energy.

What say we get back on topic?



Offline bistander

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Interesting that you knew exactly what, where and when my words pertained to. I never said you called me names. You implied it, “Educate yourself”. Anyone who is uneducated is by definition, ignorant.

BTW, the sentence you quoted was written by me to point out the absurdity of thinking that all electrical energy going through a DC motor was converted into mechanical energy.

What say we get back on topic?

Cadman,
It's pretty easy to follow your post history at EF. But impractical to find allcanadian's post telling of his free energy.

And why is it absurd to think all the power delivered to the motor's terminals is either converted to mechanical power out the shaft or waste heat due to motor losses? Actually, this is on topic, is it not?

Regards,
bi

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Cadman

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...And why is it absurd to think all the power delivered to the motor's terminals ...

".. electrical energy going through a DC motor.."

Offline bistander

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".. electrical energy going through a DC motor.."

Hi Cadman,
I don't understand your quote. Please provide a reference or example.

I've worked with specialized devices which use a combination of electrical and mechanical inputs and outputs, but please keep your answer simple as related to say the MY1020 scooter motor with a battery source and say a friction brake load.

Thanks,
bi

Offline Cadman

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..I don't understand your quote. Please provide a reference or example.

Uh-huh, sure you don't,

I am not going to engage in one of your endless, pointless, hair splitting debates. Anyone with any sense at all knows that a DC motor is not an infinite resistance device.

If you want to believe that a DC motor consumes, dissipates, converts, or whatever you want to call it, every electron from the DC source then fine, you do that.
Whatever makes you happy.


Offline bistander

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Uh-huh, sure you don't,

I am not going to engage in one of your endless, pointless, hair splitting debates. Anyone with any sense at all knows that a DC motor is not an infinite resistance device.

If you want to believe that a DC motor consumes, dissipates, converts, or whatever you want to call it, every electron from the DC source then fine, you do that.
Whatever makes you happy.

Cadman,

I don't believe electrons are consumed, converted or disapated at all. And certainly, a functionning DC motor isn't an infinite resistance device. I do subscribe to mainstream science and engineering theory about electrical energy conversion. OK if you don't want to discuss it. Too bad because I'd really like to know what you're talking about.

But at least tell me this. How do you measure
".. electrical energy going through a DC motor.."?

Thanks,
bi

 

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