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Author Topic: Do commercial motors/generators produce eddies, why do builders build their own?  (Read 2343 times)

Offline unsure

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Do commercially available motors/generators produce electromagnetic-eddies/drag, why do builders build their own ?

I assume operating speeds for commercially available motors/generators  are used to avoid  electromagnetic-eddies/drag .

I have noticed that all the motors I have ever seen have either one less or 1 more  permanent-magnet  or  electro-magnet in the stator,  compared to the rotor,  I assume that is to eliminate a large amount of cogging-torque ( en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cogging_torque ).
However,  if youre putting 2 or more generators on the same shaft I assume this design ( detailed above ) would make it difficult to UN-ALIGN the generators to achieve  "cogging-torque neutralization",   SO,   I assume thats one reason why builders may prefer to build their own generators,  so that they will have the same amount of permanent-magnets  or  electro-magnets in the stator as on the rotor,  so that they can easily UN-ALIGN them to achieve "cogging-torque neutralization".

'Builders building their own generators' seems to be a barrier to them achieving  looped/completely-self-powered devices,  maybe they should more often consider using the generators from wind-turbines, etc.



Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline onepower

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Unsure
Quote
'Builders building their own generators' seems to be a barrier to them achieving  looped/completely-self-powered devices,  maybe they should more often consider using the generators from wind-turbines, etc.

In fact, the cogging was never the problem it is an effect called Lenz Law relating to any induced current producing an opposing braking effect. The best way to understand it is by taking a strong neo magnet and dropping it down a copper pipe or moving the magnet along a thick copper or aluminum plate.

This is by far the best video I have ever seen which shows the effects we in the Free Energy community are trying to work around...https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sENgdSF8ppA

Watch this video closely, study the effects, understand the how, what, where, when and why of it. If anyone can work around this singular problem then your the man and get a Nobel prize. It looks like magic doesn't it?, however that's the nature of science and it's always impossible until someone solves the problem then it's easy. I have done all the experiments in the video and you literally have to see it and feel it to believe it.

Again, solve this one problem and all the worlds energy needs are solved as well...

Regards

Offline bistander

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Eddy current losses are minimized by the use of laminated core steel. This is also done in other electric machinery where you find magnetic flux changing polarity or amplitude at frequency, like transformers. This also causes hysteresis losses in the core material which is addressed in the metallurgy of the electrical grade sheet steels. Together Eddy current and hysteresis losses are called core loss, sometimes referred to as magnetic drag. Cogging is typically not a significant factor in commercial power conversation machines at rated speed and can be addressed in design by using skews and or appropriate pole and tooth count. Servos and position control motors, or other speciality applications find methods to address cogging.
Regards,
bi

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Offline onepower

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bistander
Quote
Eddy current losses are minimized by the use of laminated core steel. This is also done in other electric machinery where you find magnetic flux changing polarity or amplitude at frequency, like transformers. This also causes hysteresis losses in the core material which is addressed in the metallurgy of the electrical grade sheet steels. Together Eddy current and hysteresis losses are called core loss, sometimes referred to as magnetic drag. Cogging is typically not a significant factor in commercial power conversation machines at rated speed and can be addressed in design by using skews and or appropriate pole and tooth count. Servos and position control motors, or other speciality applications find methods to address cogging.

Everything you have said it true and known in the art in my opinion however by the same token everything you have said does not move the conversation forward to resolving the inherent problem. Therein lies the real problem in my opinion, most can describe a thousand reasons why something cannot work but not one in which it can. However when someone can find that reason we call it a "discovery" and everything changes.

Which begs the question, why dwell on what cannot work when we know it serves no real purpose?. I mean, I can agree with your reasons and fill twenty pages of similar reasons why we cannot work around Lenz Law however what purpose would it serve other than repetition?. There it is isn't it?, repetition, however favoring the status quo is not why we are here, we mean to move beyond the norm into uncharted territory.

So in effect you have described nothing I didn't already know 20 years ago but how would one describe something we do not know?. How do we move forward... that is the question in my opinion.

Regards






Offline bistander

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Onepower,
I was addressing the OP. I hadn't seen your reply until after I posted. I saw no mention of Lenz. At the end of his post he does mention looping which I chose not to comment about.

I think people should learn how things work before attempting to alter the technology and search for new discoveries. How do you recognize novelty if you are unaware of the present SOA?

WRT Lenz's Law, I consider it by definition of the minus sign in the ubiquitous Faraday Law equation. Actually, I'm thankful for it. Without the simple effect it describes, we would have only chaos.

I love to see people experiment with electric machinery and is a reason that I participate on these forums; to attempt to help them understand the technology, as in my reply to the OP. Do I think one of these experimenters will succeed in building a FE machine? Not really. But possibly something interesting will develop or I might learn something.

Regards,
bi



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Offline NdaClouDzzz

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I think people should learn how things work before attempting to alter the technology and search for new discoveries. How do you recognize novelty if you are unaware of the present SOA?

Greetings, bistander
Your approach is very linear. While that approach may work best for some, it may not work for others. Can we really apply rules to a field which officially does not exist, i.e., FE? After all, what's the worst that can happen, we discover prior/present SOA rather than novelty? Lateral works for me!
cheers

https://andyeklund.com/is-linear-thinking-bad/

Offline bistander

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Greetings, bistander
Your approach is very linear. While that approach may work best for some, it may not work for others. Can we really apply rules to a field which officially does not exist, i.e., FE? After all, what's the worst that can happen, we discover prior/present SOA rather than novelty? Lateral works for me!
cheers
https://dianecapri.com/2015/06/are-you-a-linear-or-lateral-thinker/

Hi NCD,
Perhaps. But from the first sentence in this thread: "electromagnetic-eddies/drag". What is member 'unsure' talking about? It's difficult to know. I doubt he/she is familiar with the technical jargon, and likely is not referring to a component of core loss at all. But what to do? I just try to explain what the words mean the best I can and let 'unsure' set the direction of the discussion. I'm not attempting to set "rules"; just establish language/communication/terminology so we can have an intelligent discussion.

It never hurts to know what you're doing, but I do admit some discoveries are stumbled upon. And could have all the efforts made 'reinventing the wheel' been better applied?

Let this return to on-topic, which could be better defined, IMO.

Regards,
bi


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Offline NdaClouDzzz

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It never hurts to know what you're doing, but I do admit some discoveries are stumbled upon.

Yes, Sir. I apologize if I sounded like I was being critical. That was not my intent. In fact, you said it best above.
Cheers

Offline unsure

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By electromagnetic-eddies/drag, I'm referring to the braking effect described by onepower,
"The best way to understand it is by taking a strong neo magnet and dropping it down a copper pipe or moving the magnet along a thick copper or aluminum plate. "

Maybe a method would be to place COVERS ( made of bismuth or something ) 'around' the  permanent-magnets or the coils,  so that a current is only induced in the coil ( to be pulsed ) once the permanent-magnet ( or another electromagnetic-coil ) IS RIGHT IN FRONT of the coil to be pulsed,  that would eliminate the the current being produced as the permanent-magnet ( or another electromagnetic-coil ) is starting to approach the coil to be pulsed,  which may then  greatly reduce the braking effect ( referring to the effect demonstrated by "moving a magnet along a thick copper or aluminum plate. " ).

There is only one rule in public overunity forums, if you have a looped/completely-self-powered device, you just don't upload it or detail it,  since everyone agrees that ownership of these devices must be kept to an absolute minimum, and definitely must not be owned by those who cannot build one or even fully understand how they work.

The unexplained thing is all these youtube videos, functioning  looped/completely-self-powered devices,  which are just 'too' simple to construct,  who is paying for this endless array of devices to be built and uploaded onto youtube,  is it to create technical fog and confusion in wannabe makers so they won't be able to make a  successful looped/completely-self-powered device,  or is it just so people will subscribe to their youtube channel,  how profitable ( how much income can they receive per week ) from high subscriptions to their channels .

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline bistander

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By electromagnetic-eddies/drag, I'm referring to the braking effect described by onepower,
"The best way to understand it is by taking a strong neo magnet and dropping it down a copper pipe or moving the magnet along a thick copper or aluminum plate. "

<snip>

In that case, I think I answered your question. In commercial electric machinery it is a loss mechanism which is managed by design to levels of a few percent of rated power and in very large machines, to a fraction of a percent of converted power.

In other applications it is a desired effect such as Eddy current brakes/retarders used on trucks and large machinery.

Regards,
bi

Offline AllanV

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In that case, I think I answered your question. In commercial electric machinery it is a loss mechanism which is managed by design to levels of a few percent of rated power and in very large machines, to a fraction of a percent of converted power.

In other applications it is a desired effect such as Eddy current brakes/retarders used on trucks and large machinery.

Regards,
bi

Hi,

Having done some work on this problem there are a few observations that lead along a path to improvement.
The efficiency is actually very poor because generators are built incorrectly and suffer from the same problem as motors.

Overall efficiency from hydro generator, the electricity grid, to work done by a motor is less than 1%.
By calculation it can be shown for a particular job it would take 10000 tonnes of water through a turbine to turn the generator to move 9tonnes of aggregate up a hill in a certain time with an electric motor.

If an E I core is opened up to act as a solenoid and the winding energized with a low voltage DC current the I is attracted. When the current is turned off the I will remain attracted to the E for some noticeable time before it separates.

The electric current produces a magnetic attraction (circuit) that continues after the electric current has stopped. It leaks away slowly.

Much more voltage is required than actually necessary.

By studying transformer action it became apparent what the answer is.

Allan


 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline NdaClouDzzz

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There is only one rule in public overunity forums, if you have a looped/completely-self-powered device, you just don't upload it or detail it,  since everyone agrees that ownership of these devices must be kept to an absolute minimum, and definitely must not be owned by those who cannot build one or even fully understand how they work.

OU members must be busy today.

Offline bistander

  • Jr. Member
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  • Posts: 77
Hi,

Having done some work on this problem there are a few observations that lead along a path to improvement.
The efficiency is actually very poor because generators are built incorrectly and suffer from the same problem as motors.

Overall efficiency from hydro generator, the electricity grid, to work done by a motor is less than 1%.
By calculation it can be shown for a particular job it would take 10000 tonnes of water through a turbine to turn the generator to move 9tonnes of aggregate up a hill in a certain time with an electric motor.

If an E I core is opened up to act as a solenoid and the winding energized with a low voltage DC current the I is attracted. When the current is turned off the I will remain attracted to the E for some noticeable time before it separates.

The electric current produces a magnetic attraction (circuit) that continues after the electric current has stopped. It leaks away slowly.

Much more voltage is required than actually necessary.

By studying transformer action it became apparent what the answer is.

Allan


Hi Allan,
What you claim about the pumped water example is not due to inefficiency of the electric dynamos (motor and generator). Pumped hydro is a legitimate method of grid scale energy buffering or storage with efficiencies comparable to other methods like batteries and is considered where terrain is favorable.

Your example of the steel attraction to the electromagnet after it is de energized sounds like simple residual magnetism. The effect would be more pronounced using a harder iron (magnetically speaking) rather than transformer laminations which which are magnetically soft to minimize hysteresis core loss.

If you feel can improve current electromechanical energy conversion technology, go for it. I feel you're mistaken about generators and motors suffering some problem due to being built wrong. But you're entitled to opinion.

Regards,
bi

Offline onepower

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Unsure
As shown in the eddy current drag video I posted almost all the energy to turn a loaded generator is to overcome eddy current forces. Note that whenever they dropped the magnet through an air core coil with a load attached the magnet experienced a braking action. This shows us the drag is produced from the circular current in the turns of the coil opposing the magnet. The drag effect is present whether an iron core is present or not.

This is the reason why loaded generators take so much input power to turn them. This also led to the assumption that the input is always proportional to the output or COP < 1.

However as we know some creative inventors have found a way to work around this braking effect.

Regards

Offline bistander

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Unsure
As shown in the eddy current drag video I posted almost all the energy to turn a loaded generator is to overcome eddy current forces.
<snip>

Hi onepower,
I've never heard the forces (usually expressed as torque) resulting from load current in a generator called "eddy current forces". Lorentz force is the term commonly used for source of the primary shaft torque.
Regards,
bi

 

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