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Author Topic: AC voltage from single magnetic pole  (Read 7867 times)

Offline verpies

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2020, 02:22:46 AM »
In ideal inductor delay will always be exactly 90°.
In the case of a permanent magnet moving inside or across an air core coil, too ?

Point being, you deny the basic law of physics that in purely inductive circuit current will always lag voltage by 90°. This is the school definition of ideal inductor.
I heave never read a definition mentioning a lag between the induced current and induced voltage in an inductive circuit. Do you think this is because I dropped out of school too early?


Do you realize how idiotic it is to deny this.
Yes and if you are right that the induced voltage leads the induced current in a coreless inductor/coil that is subjected to a varying external magnetic flux from a permanent magnet moving inside or across that coil THEN I will send 1 Bitcoin (1 BTC) to the account of your choice.

How much will you send me if I am right ?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2020, 02:22:46 AM »

Offline nix85

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2020, 03:14:40 AM »
In the case of a permanent magnet moving inside or across an air core coil, too ?

bla bla

Last few posts you started dodging by grabbing onto air core coils... in desperate hope that phase shift doesn't apply to them...to your dismay, it does. Here is some a-level physics for you, core or no core...

The circuit which contains only inductance (L) and not any other quantities like resistance and capacitance in the circuit is called a Pure inductive circuit. In this type of circuit, the current lags behind the voltage by an angle of 90 degrees.

Use that bitcoin for basic electronics course, it might do you well.

Offline verpies

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2020, 03:51:40 AM »
Last few posts you started dodging by grabbing onto air core coils...
in desperate hope that phase shift doesn't apply to them...to your dismay, it does.
Don't change the subject. It is not about that.
Air core (or coreless) coils are just simpler to discuss as they are devoid of secondary phenomena such as the magnetostriction, which you've mentioned and which I do not want to deal with.


Here is some a-level physics for you, core or no core...
The circuit which contains only inductance (L) and not any other quantities like resistance and capacitance in the circuit is called a Pure inductive circuit. In this type of circuit, the current lags behind the voltage by an angle of 90 degrees.
You are avoiding answering my questions again. (Hint: they can be identified by the question marks at their end).


Let's try with another one:
Q: Does that a-level physics statement, you just quoted above, apply to an inductive circuit which is subjected to an external varying magnetic flux from a permanent magnet moving inside or across the inductor in that circuit and to the lead/lag between the induced voltage and induced current in it ?  Core or no core.


Simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.


Use that bitcoin for basic electronics course, it might do you well.
I really would like to send it to you if you are right.  You will have earned it with your time and energy and dedication to the truth in science ...and I still have plenty more for a basic electronics course that will help me not to mislead the users of this forum.

How much will you send me if I am right ?






EDIT:
By now, it is obvious to me that my arguments, no mater how cogent & logical, will not change your entrenched position, so I have to ask: What would constitute a proof for you?
-Would a judgement by a higher authority constitute a proof for you?
-Would empirical evidence coming from someone else constitute a proof for you ?
Do tell us, what would you accept as proof in the 1BTC challenge ?
« Last Edit: October 09, 2020, 01:08:38 PM by verpies »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2020, 03:51:40 AM »
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Offline nix85

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #48 on: October 09, 2020, 01:04:20 PM »
Don't change the subject. It is not about that.
Air core (or coreless) coils are just simpler to discuss as they are devoid of secondary phenomena such as the magnetostriction, which you've mentioned and which I do not want to deal with.

I'm not changing the subject, you are, dodging in all (im)possible ways.

Quote
You are avoiding answering my questions again. (Hint: they can be identified by the question marks at their end).

Not avoiding, it's just that you still hope this LAW somehow does not apply if voltage is induced by moving magnet. I see desperation also amplifies attempts at sarcasm. To your dismay...

Quote
Let's try with another one:
Q: Does that a-level physics statement, you just quoted above, apply to an inductive circuit which is subjected to an external varying magnetic flux from a permanent magnet moving inside or across the inductor in that circuit and to the lead/lag between the induced voltage and induced current in it ?  Core or no core.


Simple "yes" or "no" will suffice.

...it does. Completely irrelevant if voltage is brought to the inductor from external circuit or induced by changing magnetic field, in ideal inductor current will always lag voltage by 90°.

Quote
I really would like to send it to you if you are right.  You will have earned it with your time and energy and dedication to the truth in science ...and I still have plenty more for a basic electronics course that will help me not to mislead the users of this forum.

How much will you send me if I am right ?

There are many preschool level electronic courses online for free, those are best suited for you and you can save that bitcoin for a candy.

Offline verpies

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2020, 01:35:31 PM »
...it does. Completely irrelevant if voltage is brought to the inductor from external circuit or induced by changing magnetic field, in ideal inductor current will always lag voltage by 90°.
OK, thank you for replying directly. Now your position is clear.


For the record, I indeed think that this "law" about the i&v lag does does not apply when the voltage is induced by the moving magnet.


[/font]
There are many preschool level electronic courses online for free, those are best suited for you and you can save that bitcoin for a candy.
If I am found wrong about this, I will take all these preschool level electronic courses and I will apologize publicly for every false and confused statement, that I have made in this discussion and I will promise that I will not mislead the members of this forum anymore. I will also rethink my life and realize that my mind is loose and unable to reason coherently and that I am biased, dishonest and unable to let go of my cherished preconceived notions and that I have been full of myself and overly confident and suffering from the Dunning-Kruger effect all this time.

If I am found wrong, then I will really send you the 1 BTC - don't worry, I still have more for these preschool-level courses.
How much will you send me if the result is opposite?


So what would constitute a proof for you?
It is obvious that arguments from me will not suffice, no matter how cogent and logical I make them...

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #49 on: October 09, 2020, 01:35:31 PM »
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Offline nix85

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #50 on: October 09, 2020, 01:46:41 PM »
Quote
I indeed think that this "law" about the i&v lag does does not apply when the voltage is induced by the moving magnet.

It's a general rule for ideal inductors, it matters not the least how voltage is induced.

Save the bitcoin for a candy, to award yourself as you go through those preschool el. lessons.

You had no arguments so far, only false claims, this being a perfect example.

Offline verpies

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #51 on: October 09, 2020, 02:16:11 PM »
It's a general rule for ideal inductors, it matters not the least how voltage is induced.
It is clear now, that you believe this and that I do not.

You had no arguments so far, only false claims, this being a perfect example.
That is true only in the recent posts, because at this point in the discussion it has become clear to me, that you've made up you mind and you will not accept any arguments from me.
This is why I ceased arguing recently and concentrated on spelling out the differences between our knowledges and beliefs, using concise and precise claims.


Thus, in order to resolve these differences and to obtain the objective proof or disproof in this issue, we have to go beyond my arguments.


So what would constitute an objective proof for you?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #51 on: October 09, 2020, 02:16:11 PM »
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Offline nix85

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #52 on: October 09, 2020, 03:18:30 PM »
What arguments? You are expressing your BELIEF.

I am referring to well known LAW of physics.

If you believe the law does not apply for moving magnet, burden of proof is on you.

You said you worked with sc, so try it. Pass a magnet over sc coil and see voltage current phase.

If you don't have access to sc, a high inductance, and low resistance and capacitance coil will do as well.

Offline verpies

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #53 on: October 09, 2020, 03:22:37 PM »
If you believe the law does not apply for moving magnet, burden of proof is on you.
I think it is customary for laws to be proven, rather than disproven. 
I don't believe that what you wrote is the universal "law".  It does not even have mathematical formula defining the alleged time lag between the current resulting from induced voltage.

...but in the interest of cooperation, I can accept the burden of disproving that "law".


To do that, I need to know what would constitute an objective disproof to you?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #53 on: October 09, 2020, 03:22:37 PM »
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Offline nix85

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #54 on: October 09, 2020, 03:25:14 PM »
I don't believe that what you wrote is the "law" but I can accept the burden of disproving your "law".


To do that, I need to know what would constitute an objective proof to you?

It is a law, to claim otherwise is idiocy.

I just wrote what.

Offline nix85

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #55 on: October 09, 2020, 03:39:54 PM »
I think it is customary for laws to be proven, rather than disproven.

That current lags voltage by  90° in inductive circuit is as well known as Ohm's law, it's "proven" by millions of engineers every single day.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #55 on: October 09, 2020, 03:39:54 PM »
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Offline verpies

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #56 on: October 09, 2020, 03:53:09 PM »
It is a law, to claim otherwise is idiocy.
It is not an idiocy. According to the scientific method every law must be falsifiable.

Offline verpies

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #57 on: October 09, 2020, 04:01:34 PM »
That current lags voltage by  90° in inductive circuit
My stance is, that this is true only if an external voltage is applied to the inductor.


is as well known as Ohm's law
Ohm's law is a different law that does not involve pure inductors. As such, it does not have to make the distinction between two modes of energy delivery to an inductor - the magnetic one and the electric one.


... it's "proven" by millions of engineers every single day.
So would a disproof of the i&v lag in a single inductive circuit, which is NOT subjected to an externally applied voltage, be an acceptable disproof for you if it is performed by a person other than me?


Offline ramset

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #58 on: October 09, 2020, 04:03:19 PM »
Well
As mentioned before
There are Venues and persons who
Can help
Example below

Perhaps it would be good to establish a rapport
With some moderators there at physics forums or EE forums or similar elsewhere ...
To help judge such debates?






https://physics.stackexchange.com/




So many times here there are persons hoping to engage
The scientific perspective !




Having a venue to ask for help judging ??


Would be good for real-time debates!!



Offline nix85

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #59 on: October 09, 2020, 04:24:52 PM »
It is not an idiocy. According to the scientific method every law must be falsifiable.

That is relative thing since all physical laws can be skewed or bypassed in certain ways, but within certain limits they hold true, see below for an example.

Quote
My stance is, that this is true only if an external voltage is applied to the inductor.

Your belief.

Quote
Ohm's law is a different law that does not involve pure inductors. As such, it does not have to make the distinction between two modes of energy delivery to an inductor - the magnetic one and the electric one.every law must be falsifiable

Ohm's law has it's exceptions, incandescent bulb totally ignores Ohm's law, as filament gets hotter it's resistance increases and Ohm's law is out of window, reverse happens in Neon tube with negative resistance, voltage falls with increasing current after the bulb reaches it's breakdown voltage. Etc.

Quote
So would a disproof of the i&v lag in a single inductive circuit, which is NOT subjected to an externally applied voltage, be an acceptable disproof for you if it was performed empirically by a person other than me?

Show me a near purely inductive circuit in which current does not lag voltage as magnet passes across the coil and i'll be happy to admit this law is bypassed in such case.

PS. since you will using resistive coil to prove something about ideal coils, use as thick wire as possible and at least 50 turns.

This is a tricky thing to do since you should not break the circuit. To do it right you should use two coils, one for voltage and another for current, measure current with a clamp probe for oscilloscope.

Small number of turns coil of same diameter will do for voltage.

 

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