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Author Topic: AC voltage from single magnetic pole  (Read 11275 times)

Offline nix85

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #105 on: October 09, 2020, 11:53:21 PM »
Reply to my last posts about Heins and sc at stackexchange.

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #105 on: October 09, 2020, 11:53:21 PM »

Offline verpies

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #106 on: October 10, 2020, 12:17:49 AM »
Wow, you must be a genius. Totally blew my mind. :)
Glad to know


It was just an example how law can be perceived as violated when it really was not.
Yup, that is why experiments must be designed cleanly to avoid confounding factors.

As usual, you missed the point.
What i referred to was not an experiment.
An empirical measurement proving an expected result, such an Ohm's law, is an experiment, even if it is a small and simple one.

I just linked to a video of perfect 90° phase shift in closed aircore coil.
You claim coil without resistance would have 0 phase shift.
I leave it to you to prove your claim in objective, scientific manner.
I just posted 7 objections to this experiment.
Because of them it cannot be used to draw valid conclusions about the issue at hand.

https://physics.stackexchange.com/questions/179374/is-current-in-superconductors-infinite-if-they-have-0-resistance-then-i-v-r-s
This guy put it nicely...

"In a superconductor, the current can keep flowing "forever" since there is no resistance. But since conductors have inductance (in fact, superconductors are used most often to create magnets like for an MRI scanner), applying a voltage would not (immediately) cause an infinite current to flow".
I agree and this is a scenario in which an external voltage source is applied to an inductive circuit. In other words, the inductor is energized by electric means.

"By turning on a very small (mW) heater, you can locally heat the superconducting loop so it becomes resistive. Now you can apply a voltage to the circuit - and it will preferentially send current around the superconducting part of the loop. The current will not be infinite though - for a given inductance L, the magnet will "ramp" as the current increases according to V=−LdI/dt"
I agree and even have done that feat, but this still is a scenario of the inductor being energized by electric means.


There is second way to energize a shorted superconducting coil. Namely it can be done by magnetic means like this:
1) Insert a permanent magnet into the bore of a coil made out of a an type2 alloy that becomes superconductive when cooled below its critical temperature, when the alloy is hot and not superconductive.
2) The bore is penetrated by the flux of the permanent magnet.
3) The current in the coil is zero
4) Cool that coil below its critical temperature (the coil becomes a superconductor)
5) The permanent magnet's flux penetrating the bore of the sc coil remains constant. It is not expelled as some noobs think.
6) The current in the sc coil is still zero because the flux penetrating it has not changed.
7) Remove the permanent magnet from the bore of the coil. This requires work. Attraction force over distance.
8 ) The sc coil senses the attempted change of flux and generates its own flux that keeps the flux in the bore constant. An ideal shorted coil is a perfect flux clamp.
9) It performs the feat in pt.8 by inducing a current in its winding which generates that flux of the coil.
10) That current circulates "forever" as long as the permanent magnet is kept away from the sc coil.


The current induced in the sc coil appears as fast as you can remove that permanent magnet.  There is no delay.

Offline verpies

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #107 on: October 10, 2020, 12:27:19 AM »
This test has L1 and L2 reversed.  IOW, L1 is now the current sense winding and L2 is the voltage sense winding.  The inductance of L1 is 143uH and the DCR is .38 ohms.  L1 is wound with 100 turns as stated before and is wound with 15-34 litz wire as is L2.

As one can see, the voltage and current are still in-phase.
So you just neutralized Nix's objection that the number of turns was not like he wanted.
If you want to keep it clean and robust in the future - keep the number of turns the same.

How pure an inductive coil do you desire?  How about giving a desired L/R ratio? 
Good question.


However the issue at hand (described in the 1 BTC challenge) was never restricted to purely inductive circuits, although it includes them, too.
That issue is restricted however, to the energization of the inductive circuit by magnetic means only - not electric means, such as applying energy to it from an external constant voltage PS.


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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #107 on: October 10, 2020, 12:27:19 AM »
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Offline nix85

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #108 on: October 10, 2020, 12:34:51 AM »
bla bla
An empirical measurement proving an expected result, such an Ohm's law, is an experiment, even if it is a small and simple one.

Experiment in my dictionary means attempt to discover something, working with well known phenomena such as Ohm's law is a routine procedure.

Quote
I just posted 7 objections to this experiment.
Because of them it cannot be used to draw valid conclusions about the issue at hand.

You are referring to already "debunked" video.

Quote
I agree and this is a scenario in which an external voltage source is applied to an inductive circuit. In other words, the inductor is energized by electric means.
I agree and even have done that feat, but this still is a scenario of the inductor being energized by electric means.


There is second way to energize a shorted superconducting coil. Namely it can be done by magnetic means like this:
1) Insert a permanent magnet into the bore of a coil made out of a an type2 alloy that becomes superconductive when cooled below its critical temperature, when the alloy is hot and not superconductive.
2) The bore is penetrated by the flux of the permanent magnet.
3) The current in the coil is zero
4) Cool that coil below its critical temperature (the coil becomes a superconductor)
5) The permanent magnet's flux penetrating the bore of the sc coil remains constant. It is not expelled as some noobs think.
6) The current in the sc coil is still zero because the flux penetrating it has not changed.
7) Remove the permanent magnet from the bore of the coil. This requires work. Attraction force over distance.
8 ) The sc coil senses the attempted change of flux and generates its own flux that keeps the flux in the bore constant. An ideal shorted coil is a perfect flux clamp.
9) It performs the feat in pt.8 by inducing a current in its winding which generates that flux of the coil.
10) That current circulates "forever" as long as the permanent magnet is kept away from the sc coil.


The current induced in the sc coil appears as fast as you can remove that permanent magnet.  There is no delay.

If you read the second answer on that page you would know it says "The main way current gets started, like in an NMR magnet, is by inductive coupling."

I already quoted the first answer which says current lags voltage due to inductance...

You are going against all of them.. Let's bring in some sc experts here...

Lets see them disperse your fantasies into pixie dust and unicorn farts quicker than Rocky pronounces an intelligible sentence.

Offline verpies

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #109 on: October 10, 2020, 12:39:25 AM »
Look at the vid i linked.

I just posted 7 objections to this experiment.
Because of them it cannot be used to draw valid conclusions about the issue at hand.


I am repeating this for the sake of members that might not want to read this thread successively/sequentially.

Makes you wonder if phase shift is 90° when he barely pushed it with hand, how much would it be at 1000 or 2000 rpm.
Remember my claim, that there is no phase shift between the induced voltage and induced current in an inductor, which is subjected to external variable flux
...AND that it stays this way regardless of the speed of the flux variations. IOW: it is the same regardless of the speed of the magnet on the rotor.


Also, I claim that the magnitude of the current induced in an ideal shorted coil, does NOT depend on the speed of the flux variations it is subjected to.
IOW: The induced flux does not depend on the speed of the permanent magnet being swept across the shorted ideal coil (or being removed from this coil, or inserted into that coil).

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #109 on: October 10, 2020, 12:39:25 AM »
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Offline verpies

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #110 on: October 10, 2020, 12:47:01 AM »
You are comparing the aberration in the voltage waveform to the peak in the current waveform which is not truly accurate.
I agree and I missed it in the list of my objections to this experiment.

Offline verpies

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #111 on: October 10, 2020, 01:05:06 AM »
So now you are not claiming only for ideal coil but for all coils over which external flux changes.
Yes, I never excluded LR circuits from this (see the text of my 1 BTC challenge) and I also include shorted ideal coils in that claim.
Could you remind me where I have written about that restriction to ideal coils only ?

Do you realize Heins' delayed lenz motor works only due to the fact that reality is opposite to what you claim. Yea, i believe he uses cores, but nonetheless.
I am not familiar with the Heins' delayed lenz motor. I don't even know whether it works or not.
However when I read "motor" that makes me think that the coils of that motor are energized by electric means.  If they are energized in that manner then I would expect there to be a delay between the application of external voltage to the coils of this motor and the current which develops as a result of this application.

Also did you see the quote above about superconductors, do you see it is common knowledge inductance plays the same role as in resistive coils.. delaying current.
Yes, inductance delays the current that develops as a consequence of applying an external voltage to an inductor.
But that delay does not occur when that current is induced by a varying external magnetic flux.

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #111 on: October 10, 2020, 01:05:06 AM »
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Offline verpies

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #112 on: October 10, 2020, 01:10:20 AM »
Already addressed this above, if you were right Heins' motor could not work.
I did too, just in the previous post.
I am replying to the messages of this thread sequentially without reading ahead.

Also what they say about sc at stackexchange.
Please post a link and a pointer to the message which you find noteworthy and I will read it and comment on it.

Offline verpies

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #113 on: October 10, 2020, 01:12:46 AM »
Verpies,

I have tried to be as objective as possible with my testing and will take your build suggestions into consideration.  At the moment however, I have a relative who recently fell and broke a hip, had surgery done, and now appears to have had a stroke.  I may not be able to continue with this thread for awhile.
Sorry to read that. Is it an ischemic stroke ?


This thread will be fine without your input for a while. There are other experimenters that join in.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #113 on: October 10, 2020, 01:12:46 AM »
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Offline nix85

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #114 on: October 10, 2020, 01:13:12 AM »
Quote
I am not familiar with the Heins' delayed lenz motor. I don't even know whether it works or not.
However when I read "motor" that makes me think that the coils of that motor are energized by electric means.  If they are energized in that manner then I would expect there to be a delay between the application of external voltage to the coils of this motor and the current which develops as a result of this application.

You are making a distinction between electromagnet and PM as if there is any difference in their fields.

Quote
Yes, inductance delays the current that develops as a consequence of applying an external voltage to an inductor.
But that delay does not occur when that current is induced by a varying external magnetic flux.

I'd like to hear a sc expert on this.

Offline verpies

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #115 on: October 10, 2020, 01:14:48 AM »
Reply to my last posts about Heins and sc at stackexchange.
Did I do it already or missed something?


I am replying to the messages on this thread chronologically and sequentially. I am a little behind and I do not read ahead.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #115 on: October 10, 2020, 01:14:48 AM »
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Offline nix85

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #116 on: October 10, 2020, 01:20:15 AM »
No, you didn't miss anything.

Offline verpies

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #117 on: October 10, 2020, 01:28:03 AM »
Experiment in my dictionary means attempt to discover something, working with well known phenomena such as Ohm's law is a routine procedure.


In my Merriam-Webster disctionary it also means to:
Quote from: Meriam-Webster
EXPERIMENT:
an operation or procedure carried out under controlled conditions in order to discover an unknown effect or law, to test or establish a hypothesis, or to illustrate a known law
https://www.merriam-webster.com/dictionary/experiment


You are referring to already "debunked" video.
I did not know.
I reply chronologically and sequentially and I do not read ahead.

If you read the second answer on that page you would know it says
"The main way current gets started, like in an NMR magnet, is by inductive coupling."
I am not disputing the ubiquitness of the procedure. I was just pointing out that there are two ways to energize a superconducting coil:
1) with electric means
2) with magnetic means


Our dispute is that during the energization procedure, the current increases with a delay:
a) In both cases 1 & 2 (which you claim)
b) Only in case 1 (which I claim)

I already quoted the first answer which says current lags voltage due to inductance...
I agree but only in case 1.

You are going against all of them.. Let's bring in some sc experts here...
Lets see them disperse your fantasies into pixie dust and unicorn farts quicker than Rocky pronounces an intelligible sentence.
OK

Offline nix85

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #118 on: October 10, 2020, 01:28:16 AM »
Quote
Yes, inductance delays the current that develops as a consequence of applying an external voltage to an inductor.
But that delay does not occur when that current is induced by a varying external magnetic flux.

Now that we are clear that your claim is for resistive coils too...

An external varying field perfectly includes varying field from an electromagnet, there is no sense to limit it to moving magnet.

And what then, if you insist on aircores, what is the difference between what you claim and a transformer in which core is removed from the secondary. Primary produces time varying flux just like moving PM does, and we got an aircore secondary.

So you are claiming current in this secondary will not lag voltage even when inductance and frequency are high?

That would be completely wrong.

Offline verpies

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Re: AC voltage from single magnetic pole
« Reply #119 on: October 10, 2020, 01:37:12 AM »
You are making a distinction between electromagnet and PM as if there is any difference in their fields.
Fundamentally there is not much difference.
In detail there is a difference between the field of a shorted superconducting solenoid and a cylindrical permanent magnet, because the former attempts to maintain the flux that penetrates it at all costs and does not exhibit BH curve phenomena such as coercivity and remanence.
However I am not using these differences in our discussion.


I'd like to hear a sc expert on this.
Please do.

 

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