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#### Lunkster

• Full Member
• Posts: 176
##### Re: The two capacitor paradox debate
« Reply #15 on: September 04, 2020, 03:54:24 PM »
Hi,  In the drawing it placed in this feed, I could have created a video and related the size of the hole in the valve with the amount of time it takes for the liquid to move from glass one to glass two.  I could have had a chart how the volume of liquid moving from glass one decreases with time as it moves from glass one to glass two.  This difference is in how high the liquid is in each glass that changes this rate of transfer.  I could then say that the R/C time constant curve looks the same as the liquid or gas transfer from one glass to the other glass.  The same curve happens as the electrons moving from the plates of one capacitor to the other.
Now with the transfer of liquid from one glass to the other is the force of gravity is forcing the liquids to be equalized.  WIth gas it would be pressure equalization. But it is not gravity that causes the electrons to move from one capacitor to the other.  So what causes the electrons to take the trip in the first place.  It that the question that is being looked at here?  Is there a pressure that causes the movement? I do not think pressure is the correct word for the movement of electrons.  But is the voltage like the pressure to move the electrons to a lower potential level until both the number of electrons are equal in both capacitors reducing the overall voltage across both capacitors?

The Lunkester

#### kajunbee

• Full Member
• Posts: 165
##### Re: The two capacitor paradox debate
« Reply #16 on: September 04, 2020, 04:26:20 PM »
The paradox is the energy loss during the transfer of charge. You start with 1 capacitor that has lets say 1 joule of energy. After the charges equalize between two capacitors the calculated energy is half of what you started with. Instead of 1/2 joule on each cap you are left with .25 joules on each one. This adds up to a total of 1/2 joule of energy. Where did the other half go???

#### v8karlo

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 385
##### Re: The two capacitor paradox debate
« Reply #17 on: September 04, 2020, 04:33:53 PM »
It is a very good question.

Is it pressure?

We all use that term pressure or voltage, but is it really that?
Electricity is not water or gas, and electrons are too slow.

I thought about it many times, and pressure just does not fit exactly.
But without better explanation, I am stuck.

Short answer: I really dont know.

It is like magnetic gears.
If you turn first, second will
turn, and third, and so on.
Even if they turn, they stay on spot, they dont move.

Electrons orbiting atom.
If first atom electrons change orbiting path, it will affect second atom electrons orbiting path, thwn third atom electrons orbiting path and so on, like chain reaction.
When force on first atom electrons stops, they all tend to get back to their usual orbiting paths.
So , nothing really moves, just rearanging orbiting paths of electrons.

And under force, lots of them will jump from their orbitals and become free electrons, which confuses us to think that electrons travel.

Just a thought, I really dont know.

#### onepower

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1011
##### Re: The two capacitor paradox debate
« Reply #18 on: September 04, 2020, 08:09:00 PM »
V8larko
Quote
I said that I can only speculate and try to find reason other than losses.
and I am confused why you opened thread if all of that is known to you?
Did you want to hear others opinions, or to find some victim so you can preach to that person how wrong he is?
Neither you or I are right.
Why?
Because it is still cap conundrum and is not solved.

I offered a solution of where and why the energy dissipates for debate in the beginning of the thread, you did read it didn't you?. So why are you confused?.
So yes, I did solve it and now I'm looking for opinions on my solutions.

Quote
Is it pressure?
We all use that term pressure or voltage, but is it really that?
Electricity is not water or gas, and electrons are too slow.
I thought about it many times, and pressure just does not fit exactly.
But without better explanation, I am stuck.
Short answer: I really dont know.

I know you don't know but I can help. The electrical pressure relates to the electric field around each electron and while they move slow there are billions and billions of them which produce a very powerful "electron cloud" with a combined field. I remember something from a good book on the subject by A.D.Moore on electrostatics. Moore said if we had a 1 cm cube of aluminum and separated all the positive and negative charges 1 meter apart. The electric field would produce a force of something like 32 million million million pounds. This force is equivalent to the weight of a steel cube 76 miles square.

So you are very much wrong and those tiny electrons in something as simple as a 1cm cube of aluminum can produce unimaginable forces in the right context. The atomic bomb is based on liberating some electrons from a small amount of material which produces a massive amount of energy which can incinerate an entire city... just from moving some little electrons.

So it's probably a good idea to understand what is actually going on because our civilization and every technology we know is based on moving some electrons. Electricity, chemistry, biology, everything revolves around atoms and the electric forces which dictate there action. Kind of important stuff.

Regards

#### kajunbee

• Full Member
• Posts: 165
##### Re: The two capacitor paradox debate
« Reply #19 on: September 04, 2020, 08:34:11 PM »
Your explanation in first post is the conclusion that I came to also. That it is simply the redistribution of charges over a larger area. I had given this quite a bit of thought over the years and was fairly comfortable with this explanation until recently. There are several videos on YouTube now concerning the paradox. In one it was said that if there was not a loss of energy the stored charge would slosh back and forth till the end of time. I’ll see if I can find it again and provide you the link.

#### kajunbee

• Full Member
• Posts: 165
##### Re: The two capacitor paradox debate
« Reply #20 on: September 04, 2020, 09:33:53 PM »
https://youtu.be/4v0YlultV0w

Not sure what this guys credentials are so you might take it with a grain of salt. I can’t envision how this would be possible without some amount of inductance. As far as I know and ideal capacitor has zero resistance and inductance.

#### WhatIsIt

• Hero Member
• Posts: 651
##### Re: The two capacitor paradox debate
« Reply #21 on: September 05, 2020, 04:07:34 AM »
OnePower,

There is no conundrum at all.

If you look equation for energy in cap then you see that
with doubling voltage, energy is four times larger.

That means that energy in parallel 4 caps of 5 V are equal
to 1 cap of 10V.

If you have only 2 caps of 5V,
it is only half of energy of 1 cap of 10V.

V8 told you that voltage follow linear scale and energy exponential.

What did you not understand?

#### WhatIsIt

• Hero Member
• Posts: 651
##### Re: The two capacitor paradox debate
« Reply #22 on: September 05, 2020, 04:14:49 AM »
Real question is

Can cap of 10V perform 4 times of work than cap of 5V,
as energy equation states?
Or is it false?

#### kajunbee

• Full Member
• Posts: 165
##### Re: The two capacitor paradox debate
« Reply #23 on: September 05, 2020, 01:59:13 PM »
Lunkster, another paradox is the energy gain when separating a parallel plate capacitor. You have a capacitor whose plates are separated by a certain distance. Let’s say it’s capacitance is 50 uf and it’s charged to 200 volts. The energy stored would be 1 joule. As you start to separate the plates the voltage will increase and capacitance will decrease. At twice the distance the voltage doubles and capacitance halves. You now have 2 joules of stored energy on the capacitor. Where did the extra energy come from? The explanation you will find is that it required work to separate the plates. In doing so you add energy into the system.

https://youtu.be/ImkQdh8jQ5U

#### Jeg

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1532
##### Re: The two capacitor paradox debate
« Reply #24 on: September 05, 2020, 02:46:56 PM »
Lunkster, another paradox is the energy gain when separating a parallel plate capacitor. You have a capacitor whose plates are separated by a certain distance. Let’s say it’s capacitance is 50 uf and it’s charged to 200 volts. The energy stored would be 1 joule. As you start to separate the plates the voltage will increase and capacitance will decrease. At twice the distance the voltage doubles and capacitance halves. You now have 2 joules of stored energy on the capacitor. Where did the extra energy come from? The explanation you will find is that it required work to separate the plates. In doing so you add energy into the system.

Nice kajumbee.
What about removing the dielectric which is far lighter than the plate itself...
What about changing the properties of the dielectric material instead of moving anything...
For everything there is a solution. There just need an effort but everything is possible.

Regards

#### kajunbee

• Full Member
• Posts: 165
##### Re: The two capacitor paradox debate
« Reply #25 on: September 05, 2020, 03:16:44 PM »
Jeg, that would be the route to take. Air doesn’t allow you too store a great deal of charge. Changing the property’s  of the dielectric is not something I had considered. No clue how that could be done, but great idea.

#### onepower

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1011
##### Re: The two capacitor paradox debate
« Reply #26 on: September 05, 2020, 05:59:47 PM »
Kajunbee
Quote
Your explanation in first post is the conclusion that I came to also. That it is simply the redistribution of charges over a larger area. I had given this quite a bit of thought over the years and was fairly comfortable with this explanation until recently. There are several videos on YouTube now concerning the paradox. In one it was said that if there was not a loss of energy the stored charge would slosh back and forth till the end of time. I’ll see if I can find it again and provide you the link.

https://youtu.be/4v0YlultV0w
Not sure what this guys credentials are so you might take it with a grain of salt. I can’t envision how this would be possible without some amount of inductance. As far as I know and ideal capacitor has zero resistance and inductance.

That was an interesting video, thanks.

We could do some thought experiments...
1) We have the two capacitor setup made of superconducting materials with zero resistance, connect them and the electron current sloshes back and forth for an untold amount of time.
2) We have the two capacitor setup with a very high resistance, connect them and it takes and untold amount of time for the voltages to balance.

It would be easy to assume the resistance is the cause of the dissipation of energy however in case 1 it is the inductance which causes the electrons to slosh back and forth not so much a lack of resistance.

In my experiments I added a coil with inductance in between the two capacitors and I measured a dampened alternating current between them. When I removed the inductance there was no alternating current and they balanced immediately. The problem here is that whenever an electron which carries an electric field with it moves it produces a magnetic field. The magnetic field on the conductor gives the electron current a property similar to inertia which then causes it to over run and alternate.

So we could suppose that if we used superconductors in the two capacitor setup and if all the resistance and inductance were removed the electrons would not slosh back and forth for an untold amount of time leaving us back at square one, as you implied. Most are not considering all the factors in my opinion which becomes problematic.

In my opinion the physics dictates that when the initial charge density balances over twice the surface area this is the first cause which dissipates the majority of the energy regardless of what happens in between the capacitors. It also helps that I have seen FE first hand and it was not based on a mysterious energy gain as many suppose but understanding and removing an inherent loss in the system many took for granted. So it is very important to understand exactly what is happening where and why in my opinion.

Regards

#### Lunkster

• Full Member
• Posts: 176
##### Re: The two capacitor paradox debate
« Reply #27 on: September 05, 2020, 08:38:47 PM »
HI,

I WAS WRONG!  My drawing was way off basis because it had the wrong voltages and wrong representation of what is going on.
I AM SO SORRY!  A person my age should not be making mistakes like that.  I think it was a "BRAIN FART"  That stinks!
I AM SO THANKFUL FOR ALL OF YOUR COMMENTS!  If it was not for your comments! I would not see my errors and I would not have a chance to correct them.  I have hopefully made the corrections in the attached drawing that make sense for interesting two cap problem.

The Lunkster

#### v8karlo

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 385
##### Re: The two capacitor paradox debate
« Reply #28 on: September 05, 2020, 08:56:29 PM »
Lunkster,

In each cap should be 5V, and energy 1/4 , I think.

What do you think, is it real?
By doubling voltage energy grow very rapidly?

All we need to do is raise voltage in cap, and soon energy will be huge.

#### kajunbee

• Full Member
• Posts: 165
##### Re: The two capacitor paradox debate
« Reply #29 on: September 05, 2020, 09:12:34 PM »
V8karlo is correct , there should be 5 volts across each cap. Each cap now has .25 joules stored energy.