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Author Topic: Grounding question  (Read 3626 times)

Offline fritznien

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Re: Grounding question
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2021, 08:13:47 AM »
let's first dispell the "hot wire" nonsense
there is no such thing as "hot wire", or "phase and neutral"
voltage is same on both terminals with only difference being that
"neutral" is USUALLY (not always) earthed.

MCBs are used for overcurrent protection
RCDs for earth leakage human protection

i know earthing is used mostly for lightning and static build up drain

again, what is the difference if casing of an appliance is connected
to neutral in the appliance or 2 meters away in the breaker panel
we have been thru this,any fault in the neutral will let the case rise to full voltage and ZAP!what are you trying to do here?you want to cheap out on the cord use non conductive cases.no the ground in a house wiring is not remotely able to handle lightning but it will keep metal safe to touch if there is a fault. telephone equipment has very stringent grounding systems but compared to a toaster the equipmentin a phone system is very delicate.

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Re: Grounding question
« Reply #30 on: April 28, 2021, 08:13:47 AM »

Offline nix85

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Re: Grounding question
« Reply #31 on: April 28, 2021, 01:30:14 PM »
Floor that is all that is common knowledge most of it is already mentioned,
or perfectly assumed.

here is a video explaining all those basics nicely
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=P-W42tk-fWc

you might just have simply written redundancy

also "Both the common and the ground wire are neutral to earth ground (ideally)."
this is often not the case cause there is potential between remote and local earth
which will trip the RCD if "neutral" is earthed.

sometimes it's even possible to power small appliances between neutral and ground
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BF0CS8aY1CY

again, there is no such thing as "phase" and "neutral", these are nonsensical terms
that just confuse the public.

in your american split phase system you have 3 wires coming from the pole transformer
2 of which might be called "common" cause one of your two 120v phases is common wire of the 3 phase transformer and your household "common" is common for two sides of that single phase winding.

the ONLY difference is that so called neutral/common is often but not always earthed.

Jerry Volland, all you wrote is basics all of us know

fritznien no, goal is not to be cheap on wire but to clear this up.
yea "any fault in the neutral will let the case rise to full voltage and ZAP"

but no zap happens in that scenario if you have RCD which you surely do
hopefully one with less than 500mA tripping current.

you might as well think of similar scenario where fault happens in the ground
wire and again casing is live, thankfully RCD again saves you

also i did not say ground wire is to handle lightning but earthing, that is, metal rod on your roof connected to the rod in the ground

i will accept redundancy as an answer


Offline kajunbee

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Re: Grounding question
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2021, 04:47:24 PM »
So I see at least two scenarios. One in which neutral and ground are connected at load, but only the neutral is connected to rcd.  In this case rcd will trip when load is connected. The other scenario is where neutral and ground are connected at load and also at rcd. In this case the rcd will not trip. Now suppose there is short to the case but it is perfectly isolated. In this case the rcd would not sense a fault, correct. You now come along and touch the device and provide a path to ground. As I see it the rcd will trip but you might feel a brief shock. But if case is grounded separately the rcd hopefully trips before you make contact with the faulty device. Does anyone else see it the same way or am I way off.

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Re: Grounding question
« Reply #32 on: April 28, 2021, 04:47:24 PM »
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Offline nix85

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Re: Grounding question
« Reply #33 on: April 29, 2021, 01:42:06 PM »
it makes no difference if casing is connected to neutral in the appliance
or few meters away in the breaker panel

in any case if "live" touches the casing MCB will trip cause of short circuit,
not RCD. in a case MCB fails for some reason and casing is live
and grounded person touches it small current will flow through
a person but only for 25-40ms. now we come to sensitivity of your
RCD

"To prevent electrocution, RCDs should operate within 25–40 milliseconds with any leakage currents (through a person) of greater than 30 mA, before electric shock can drive the heart into ventricular fibrillation, the most common cause of death through electric shock."

we for example have 500mA RCD so it is questionable would it save a person

this whole grid is shit and requires this overcomplex protection,
with greater potential for failure.

we should be using say 30v instead of 120 or 240 at cost of thicker conductors
but no danger of shock.

(yea, theoretically even 24v can kill you if you are wet but still)

grid of the future is no grid


Offline nix85

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Re: Grounding question
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2021, 05:57:05 PM »
i am looking at these high voltage long distance dc transmission lines
gaining popularity lately and transmission lines in general
such monstrosity, obsolete for 150 years

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Re: Grounding question
« Reply #34 on: April 29, 2021, 05:57:05 PM »
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Offline fritznien

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Re: Grounding question
« Reply #35 on: May 02, 2021, 09:41:47 AM »
it makes no difference if casing is connected to neutral in the appliance
or few meters away in the breaker panel

in any case if "live" touches the casing MCB will trip cause of short circuit,
not RCD. in a case MCB fails for some reason and casing is live
and grounded person touches it small current will flow through
a person but only for 25-40ms. now we come to sensitivity of your
RCD

"To prevent electrocution, RCDs should operate within 25–40 milliseconds with any leakage currents (through a person) of greater than 30 mA, before electric shock can drive the heart into ventricular fibrillation, the most common cause of death through electric shock."

we for example have 500mA RCD so it is questionable would it save a person

this whole grid is shit and requires this overcomplex protection,
with greater potential for failure.

we should be using say 30v instead of 120 or 240 at cost of thicker conductors
but no danger of shock.

(yea, theoretically even 24v can kill you if you are wet but still)

grid of the future is no grid
it makes every difference where the neutral is connected. in the panel the ground is tied to earth,
no matter what goes on in the appliance and neutral the ground line will remain safe.call it redundant if you like it is safe. your RCD breaker will kill somebody. at 500ma you are going to be standing there with smoke coming out your ears 6 months later when they cut off your power for non payment. also i have one GFI in my house, i'm sure many are similar. i bet there are service panels in my countythat still have fuses. would you trust your life to a 30 year old RCD?
 grounding is not complicated, run the ground wire to every metal junction box where you have connections.it is also the law as it is required by code.

Offline nix85

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Re: Grounding question
« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2021, 02:34:45 PM »
it makes every difference where the neutral is connected. in the panel the ground is tied to earth,
no matter what goes on in the appliance and neutral the ground line will remain safe.call it redundant if you like it is safe. your RCD breaker will kill somebody. at 500ma you are going to be standing there with smoke coming out your ears 6 months later when they cut off your power for non payment. also i have one GFI in my house, i'm sure many are similar. i bet there are service panels in my countythat still have fuses. would you trust your life to a 30 year old RCD?
 grounding is not complicated, run the ground wire to every metal junction box where you have connections.it is also the law as it is required by code.

there is no difference if neutral is connected to the casing
in the appliance itself or few meters away in the box
as shown in the diagram below

again, if "live" came into contact with the casing you would have a short
and MCB would trip near instantly. it is highly unlikely person would
touch the casing at that very instant and if they did RCD trips.

but let's say neutral is damaged (no "return path")
and "live" comes into contact with the casing. now nothing happens
until a person touches the case and if there was not for RCD you would
possibly get killed. but now that small current passes through you and back
to neutral through earth bypassing the RCD it detects the difference in current
between two wires and trips the switch and you are saved.

hopefully it is clear how extremely unlikely the second scenario is.
you would need a socket with broken "neutral", that is, a dead
socket you did not notice it's dead. then you would need
an appliance in which isolation broke on "live" and managed to
touch the casing. then you would also need bare feet and "hopefully"
wet floor to make good "return path". and even if all that happens
RCD is still there to protect you.

i agree 500mA is potentially dangerous as i said myself
but you're not gonna be "standing there with smoke coming out your ears"
it is unlikely you would actually get killed by 500mA for 30-40mS
but if current passes through your heart you just may.
do you know when they electrocute criminals it sometimes takes
20 minutes to kill them at much greater current. i don't even wanna go there.

it would be far better if it was closer to 30mA, but they say 30mA
trips too easily when air is bit humid, like in bathroom
if i was designing the installation i would sure use RCD closer to 30mA




« Last Edit: May 02, 2021, 04:42:05 PM by nix85 »

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Re: Grounding question
« Reply #36 on: May 02, 2021, 02:34:45 PM »
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Offline nix85

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Re: Grounding question
« Reply #37 on: May 03, 2021, 02:51:25 PM »
here is another puzzle for you. i mentioned it before.
my father says sometimes when he was doing electric work
in other houses, when he earthed the neutral RCD tripped
he ascribed this to difference of potential between local earth
and that in transformer station

but does that really make sense. first of all that voltage difference
is small, few volts at most, and considering the great resistance
of earth that current would probably be below tripping current

maybe not https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Soil_resistivity#Corrosion

secondly, if neutral is earthed correctly, after the RCD looking from
the perspective of the house, then circuit between two earths
does not pass through the RCD.

Offline fritznien

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  • Posts: 293
Re: Grounding question
« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2021, 06:46:12 AM »
there is no difference if neutral is connected to the casing
in the appliance itself or few meters away in the box
as shown in the diagram below

again, if "live" came into contact with the casing you would have a short
and MCB would trip near instantly. it is highly unlikely person would
touch the casing at that very instant and if they did RCD trips.

but let's say neutral is damaged (no "return path")
and "live" comes into contact with the casing. now nothing happens
until a person touches the case and if there was not for RCD you would
possibly get killed. but now that small current passes through you and back
to neutral through earth bypassing the RCD it detects the difference in current
between two wires and trips the switch and you are saved.

hopefully it is clear how extremely unlikely the second scenario is.
you would need a socket with broken "neutral", that is, a dead
socket you did not notice it's dead. then you would need
an appliance in which isolation broke on "live" and managed to
touch the casing. then you would also need bare feet and "hopefully"
wet floor to make good "return path". and even if all that happens
RCD is still there to protect you.

i agree 500mA is potentially dangerous as i said myself
but you're not gonna be "standing there with smoke coming out your ears"
it is unlikely you would actually get killed by 500mA for 30-40mS
but if current passes through your heart you just may.
do you know when they electrocute criminals it sometimes takes
20 minutes to kill them at much greater current. i don't even wanna go there.

it would be far better if it was closer to 30mA, but they say 30mA
trips too easily when air is bit humid, like in bathroom
if i was designing the installation i would sure use RCD closer to 30mA
you miss the point. ground is earthed at the panel and at the transformer center tap.it is your safety. without the ground line a fault can put hot to a metal case.with neutral hooked to the metal case any fault with the neutral puts the case to hot.that fault could be a clean break or an intermitant or resistive it don't matter.
your RCD trip point is 500ma so you could be there for the rest off your life at 400ma.what if there is no RCD? is every breaker in your panel an RCD? none of mine are.what about an old house with fuses?no one has said you can not have an RCD, but do you? bigclive on utube shows all kinds of equipmenttaken apart to show how it works or not, one he did had a fake breaker switch!

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Re: Grounding question
« Reply #38 on: May 04, 2021, 06:46:12 AM »
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Offline nix85

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Re: Grounding question
« Reply #39 on: May 04, 2021, 03:49:57 PM »
you miss the point. ground is earthed at the panel and at the transformer center tap.it is your safety. without the ground line a fault can put hot to a metal case.with neutral hooked to the metal case any fault with the neutral puts the case to hot.that fault could be a clean break or an intermitant or resistive it don't matter.
your RCD trip point is 500ma so you could be there for the rest off your life at 400ma.what if there is no RCD? is every breaker in your panel an RCD? none of mine are.what about an old house with fuses?no one has said you can not have an RCD, but do you? bigclive on utube shows all kinds of equipmenttaken apart to show how it works or not, one he did had a fake breaker switch!

"ground is earthed at the panel and at the transformer center tap.it is your safety."

you are repeating what i already said and what everyone knows

ground is just a second neutral, they meet at the panel where they are
earthed, "neutral" is also earthed at the central tap of the transformer as
both diagrams i posted show. i even talked about potential difference
between two earths

"without the ground line a fault can put hot to a metal case"

again, i said this since the first post and everyone knows this

i'm not missing the point, you are focusing on extreme scenario of no RCD at all.

i am assuming every modern household should have an RCD/MCB
(RCBO or GFCI breaker) and i believe great majority does

i already agreed ground should be there as redundancy

"your RCD trip point is 500ma so you could be there for the rest off your life at 400ma"

that can't happen. i got RCD+MCB (RCBO)
if "live" touched the case, MCB trips instantly.

without RCD, if you happened to touch the case at the moment it
became "live", do you really think a fuse would save you.

"The operating time is not a fixed interval but decreases as the current increases.
Fuses are designed to have particular characteristics of operating time compared
to current. A standard fuse may require twice its rated current to open in one
second, a fast-blow fuse may require twice its rated current to blow in 0.1 seconds,
and a slow-blow fuse may require twice its rated current for tens of seconds to blow."

fast RCD is a must


 

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