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Author Topic: Grounding question  (Read 8003 times)

Offline Void

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  • Posts: 2447
Re: Grounding question
« Reply #15 on: September 02, 2020, 04:11:07 PM »
void, there was no need for your reply or emojis but it's ok.

Hi nix85. When I typed in my reply to you, fritznien had not made his second reply
to you yet. It just so happens he seems to have been replying to you at the same time
I was replying. Instead of thanking me for taking the time to explain to you further, you
reply with a very ignorant comment. Thanks for making it clear to everyone here that you are
just a clueless ignorant asshole.

What the hell is wrong so many people these days? More assholes than you can shake a stick at.
Many people seem to have completely lost all sense of manners and respect, etc. 
I guess we have to blame their parents for not teaching their kids properly.
This does not bode well at all for the future of this world.
 :o


Offline nix85

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Re: Grounding question
« Reply #16 on: September 02, 2020, 04:22:17 PM »
Hi nix85. When I typed in my reply to you, fritznien had not made his second reply
to you yet. It just so happens he seems to have been replying to you at the same time
I was replying. Instead of thanking me for taking the time to explain to you further, you
reply with a very ignorant comment. Thanks for making it clear to everyone here that you are
just a clueless ignorant asshole.

What the hell is wrong so many people these days? More assholes than you can shake a stick at.
Many people seem to have completely lost all sense of manners and respect, etc. 
I guess we have to blame their parents for not teaching their kids properly.
This does not bode well at all for the future of this world.
 :o

calm your tits and look in the mirror. look at sarcastic ending of your first post and stupid emojis you use... your comment was posted after his, all i said is that it was not needed, especially the sarcasm.

i'm igorant? maybe compared to some 5D being, but to you, i am lantern of illumination, you poor ahole

Offline Void

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Re: Grounding question
« Reply #17 on: September 02, 2020, 04:24:25 PM »
call me your tits and look in the mirror. look at sarcastic ending of your first post and an stupid emojis you use...

i'm igorant? maybe compared to some 5D being, but to you, i am lantern of illumination, you poor ahole
you call me ignora

I rest my case.

Offline nix85

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Re: Grounding question
« Reply #18 on: September 02, 2020, 04:29:37 PM »
I rest my case.

eng is not my first lang, you moron, i can misspell a phrase and correct it a second later all the while laughing how pathetic you are.

i rest my case.

Offline nix85

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Re: Grounding question
« Reply #19 on: September 03, 2020, 05:50:54 PM »
let's review this once more. so to this..

Quote
void, there was no need for your reply or emojis but it's ok.

mr nice manners replies with

Quote
Instead of thanking me for taking the time to explain to you further, you
reply with a very ignorant comment. Thanks for making it clear to everyone here that you are just a clueless ignorant asshole.

wow, so kind and sweet

Quote
What the hell is wrong so many people these days? More assholes than you can shake a stick at.

all those nasty assholes that do not show gratitude for his great contributions

then he goes on a rant about parents..

Quote
Many people seem to have completely lost all sense of manners and respect, etc. 
I guess we have to blame their parents for not teaching their kids properly.
This does not bode well at all for the future of this world.
 :o

thankfully, his parents taught him "nice" manners

Offline v8karlo

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  • Posts: 408
Re: Grounding question
« Reply #20 on: September 03, 2020, 06:12:31 PM »
i been watching rimstar's video on grounding/earthing

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zLW_7TPf310

as you know, ground wire is there so in case insulation on phase/live gets damaged and it touches the casing, electricity doesn't flow through you to the ground by through the ground wire which is connected to the neutral in the breaker panel.

what i don't understand, why not connect the neutral to the casing directly and lose the 3rd terminal.

what would be the difference. casing would still be at 0V and in case phase touches the casing current will flow to the neutral and not through you.

can anyone answer this


Your casings and other stuff can produce lots of noise and phase shifted signals.


If you use neutral for grounding you introduce all that garbage back to network,
and soon your network will not have clean sine wave but garbage.


How many casings are just in one city?


The reason to use ground is to try to keep clean network,
and remove garbage signals to the ground.




Offline nix85

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Re: Grounding question
« Reply #21 on: September 03, 2020, 06:45:21 PM »

Your casings and other stuff can produce lots of noise and phase shifted signals.


If you use neutral for grounding you introduce all that garbage back to network,
and soon your network will not have clean sine wave but garbage.


How many casings are just in one city?


The reason to use ground is to try to keep clean network,
and remove garbage signals to the ground.

good point, all that stray capacitance

Offline v8karlo

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Re: Grounding question
« Reply #22 on: September 03, 2020, 06:50:14 PM »
Yes, and with stray capacitance emerge reactive power as well.
Network will become source of noise and sensitive electronics on user end will be fried very quickly,
while power companies will be having headiche.

Offline nix85

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Re: Grounding question
« Reply #23 on: September 03, 2020, 06:53:21 PM »
ofc, like you said, phase shifting voltage and current

Offline nix85

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Re: Grounding question
« Reply #24 on: April 27, 2021, 08:04:39 PM »

Your casings and other stuff can produce lots of noise and phase shifted signals.


If you use neutral for grounding you introduce all that garbage back to network,
and soon your network will not have clean sine wave but garbage.


How many casings are just in one city?


The reason to use ground is to try to keep clean network,
and remove garbage signals to the ground.


i been thinking about this again, this argument makes sense at first but
in most usual case where ground is connected to neutral
in the box, what is the difference, metal casings and other stuff
is still connected to the main circuit, no big difference if it's connected
right at the plug or few meters away in the box and still

"casings and other stuff can produce lots of noise and phase shifted signals"


Offline nix85

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Re: Grounding question
« Reply #25 on: April 27, 2021, 08:21:27 PM »
i still dont see a single valid reason for existence of the 3rd hole

Floor

  • Guest
Re: Grounding question
« Reply #26 on: April 27, 2021, 08:56:44 PM »
the third prong ....

In a home wiring system, if a hot wire contacts the outer body
of an appliance, it is a dead short to the breaker.  The appliance
body cannot conduct a large current if it is wired to the third prong.

An undesired current available through the appliance body becomes a source
of current through any person's body that completes an electrical circuit from that
appliance body to a grounding point.
... ... ... ... ... ...
The actual earth grounding rod at the electric service points, are / is for lightning
strikes.

In RF ranges and earth grounding there are other things to consider.

Offline nix85

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Re: Grounding question
« Reply #27 on: April 27, 2021, 09:04:18 PM »
let's first dispell the "hot wire" nonsense
there is no such thing as "hot wire", or "phase and neutral"
voltage is same on both terminals with only difference being that
"neutral" is USUALLY (not always) earthed.

MCBs are used for overcurrent protection
RCDs for earth leakage human protection

i know earthing is used mostly for lightning and static build up drain

again, what is the difference if casing of an appliance is connected
to neutral in the appliance or 2 meters away in the breaker panel


Floor

  • Guest
Re: Grounding question
« Reply #28 on: April 28, 2021, 01:54:35 AM »
"again, what is the difference if casing of an appliance is connected
to neutral in the appliance or 2 meters away in the breaker panel"

In short (pun intended) the third wire is for redundancy.

Current flows between a hot wire and a common wire only after an appliance is used
on that pair (hot and common). 

Current never flows between a hot and a ground unless something is wrong.
The ground wire is for safety only, never to be used as common, always out of the
circuit unless something is wrong. It is to provides a dead short to the breaker.
Breakers help prevent fires.

Current never flows between a ground wire and a common wire unless something is wrong.
They are supposed to have the same resistance and voltage potential.

Common and ground have parallel paths to the common terminal.

The common is connected to earth ground at the main breaker box.
Down the line, it does not have the same potential to earth ground as does a hot wire.

The ground wire is connected to earth ground at the main breaker box.
Down the line, it does not have the same potential to earth ground as does a hot wire.

Common wire or ground wire,  it  will always dead short a hot wire,  because it leads to the center
tap of the line transformer. But also they short a hot wire because they are earth grounded.

Common is supposed to connect to a hot wire only with current that has passed through
the electrical resistance of an appliance.  That connection is to both the transformer and to
earth ground.

When an appliance draws a large current, it is because the appliance has a low
electrical resistance. 

In respect to an earth ground (buried plumbing),  an appliance that draws a large current
( low resistance) may still have a considerable voltage potential to that earth ground even
after the load.

If a path is provided, voltage and current will divide between an earth ground
and the common wire (according to the resistance differences).

If the common wire is connected to the body of an appliance and a person's body connects the appliance to an earth ground, that person becomes part of that divided circuit. 

If an appliance is one that draws a lot of power (low resistance), the voltage and current to
earth ground which is still available after the appliance load can be substantial.

If the common wire becomes disconnected from its terminal at the breaker box,
It has become disconnected from both the transformer center tap and the earth ground.

The appliance body is now completely live in respect to an earth ground, (after the
appliance load).

This is of course less live, than if the hot side of the load were directly connected to the
appliance body (before the appliance load).

Both the common and the ground wire are neutral to earth ground (ideally).

The "common" wire is hot in common, to either side of the transformer.
The "common" wire is neutral to the ground wire and to an earth ground.

The hot wires are hot to both, the earth ground and to the common (transformer).

Again the third wire is for redundancy.
    also
Common and ground wires share the same terminal at the mains breaker box.

In general, in a sub panel connection, there is no local connection present between common
and ground wires. 
                           
The common bar is not connected to the box / body.

A separate ground bar is connected to the sub panel box / body.

The common and ground wires are connected to the same bar only at the mains box.

There are exceptions to this generalization.
 

« Last Edit: April 28, 2021, 05:48:52 AM by Floor »

Offline fritznien

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Re: Grounding question
« Reply #29 on: April 28, 2021, 08:13:47 AM »
let's first dispell the "hot wire" nonsense
there is no such thing as "hot wire", or "phase and neutral"
voltage is same on both terminals with only difference being that
"neutral" is USUALLY (not always) earthed.

MCBs are used for overcurrent protection
RCDs for earth leakage human protection

i know earthing is used mostly for lightning and static build up drain

again, what is the difference if casing of an appliance is connected
to neutral in the appliance or 2 meters away in the breaker panel
we have been thru this,any fault in the neutral will let the case rise to full voltage and ZAP!what are you trying to do here?you want to cheap out on the cord use non conductive cases.no the ground in a house wiring is not remotely able to handle lightning but it will keep metal safe to touch if there is a fault. telephone equipment has very stringent grounding systems but compared to a toaster the equipmentin a phone system is very delicate.