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2020 builders survivor board => General Builders discussion => Topic started by: ramset on July 28, 2020, 03:50:52 PM

Title: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: ramset on July 28, 2020, 03:50:52 PM
An apparent anomaly which was supported and mentored by Patrick Kelly, will be discussed here [and elsewhere] in the coming weeks.

Did send a note to Stefan to discuss this topic moving forward.
see also memorial page here  https://overunity.com/18545/in-memoriam-patrick-kelly/msg548523/#new (https://overunity.com/18545/in-memoriam-patrick-kelly/msg548523/#new)



respectfully  Chet K


 
Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: NRamaswami on July 29, 2020, 09:29:56 AM
I am very grateful for the opportunity to write about the devices Patrick Kelly was personally interested in..

These are the

Hubbard device

Figuera device

Multiple wave oscillator

All are discussed..I have experimented with all.

I have dismantled the Hubbard device and Figuera device and I have a multiple wave oscillator as described in chapter on health intact..the adjustable spark plugs have to be
built.

We are under a lockdown where we are all asked to work from home. I need some time to rebuild the modules for Figuera device and Hubbard device. The modules are basically induction coils.

I will complete each module, state construction details and photos and videos for each one and finally the interconnections

As the entire world is under some type of lockdown I believe that this will also enable every one interested to be able to replicate and test and see if what I state is correct information or not.

90-95% of this effort was funded by me but when due to poor health and financial condition I gave up Patrick and two other friends insisted that I continue. When I recovered I offered to return it but Patrick Kelly and the other two friends refused to accept repayment.

I handled large but low cost and simple to build electromagnets that oscillated at 50 Hz. These are quite dangerous in the sense that we don't realise that they can affect our physiological systems adversely. If you elect to build and test it you would be doing so on your own volition. If you build and test please stand away at least 8-10 feet away from the field. It causes physical inability.

I will be posting from next week. My apologies for the delay.

Regards

Ramaswami Natarajan
 
Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: Jeg on July 29, 2020, 12:19:03 PM

 These are quite dangerous in the sense that we don't realise that they can affect our physiological systems adversely.

Ramaswami Natarajan

Hi Sir
Thanks a lot for your intentions to share your experience on electromagnets. You have already our full attention after your yesterday's statement about the multifilar primaries and thicker secondaries. It is something new to me as i was born with the notion that primary and secondary have to have the same weight. Looking forward for your tests and experimental devices.

Best Regards
Jeg
Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: NRamaswami on July 29, 2020, 05:10:34 PM
I apologise.

I have no theoretical knowledge. I have not followed any rules for I didn't know them. You just put some body to experiment ask him to observe and learn and improve that's what I did.

I just experimented, failed, observed and improved.. Patrick guided.. because of this there's no notes. No need to worry about anything for I had nothing to worry as I am neither a scientist nor an Engineer nor employed. I am a simple Lawyer trying to experiment and observe. In

No simulation for I didn't know nor do I know as of I now how to do simulation. All observations are based on experimental results.

You will need to experiment and ascertain if what I say is correct. I have stopped doing anything form a few years now due to poor health and finances and had to focus on my health and practice of Law. If you ask any theoretical questions I will not know anything.

This was a tremendous advantage to attempt to learn what works, how and why as I understand them and not based on any books.

I can share the following experiment done many years ago

I shared it with Ramset

Target Greater than 1 COP

Please buy a thick plastic tube 18 inches long 4 inches diameter

Wind 4 sq mm insulated copper wire CCW

You may get about 87 to 89 turns per layer

Wind 12 layers

This is the secondary

Wind a 4 filar coil of 4 sq mm wire on the secondary. Each coil should be 90 to 100 metres long in primary

Put iron rods and hammer them into the plastic tube

If you create an electromagnet for 50 Hz 220 volt input you will draw 15 amps.in primary

The load will be approximately 3000 watts in output but you can load up to 17 incandescent bulbs of 200 watts each. You will probably get 300 volts and 10 amps in secondary

91% efficiency. No theoretical problem here..

How would you increase the efficiency? Test and observe and then let me know. No magnetic amplifier..

Please try to actually build and experiment..This will take your time.

Let me know how you would increase the efficiency. Us ut possible to increase it to greater than 100% efficiency? How?

Simple device..

But I will come back only after Saturday..

Regards

Ramaswami Natarajan







Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: ramset on July 29, 2020, 05:36:27 PM
Ramaswami
yes you "just" sent this to me and I am glad you posted here...

thank you
Chet K
Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: Jeg on July 29, 2020, 07:43:58 PM

Let me know how you would increase the efficiency. Is it possible to increase it to greater than 100% efficiency? How?


..."It is a fact that Patrick taught me Electromagnetism not as you study it in college but in a practical step by step construction of electromagnets. Very baby steps but then I started winding coils by hand and learnt it.

Please focus on the Figuera device shape.

All primaries are to be wound with multifilar coils. All from top to bottom. Please use North South orientation. North pole of one primary to face the south pole of next primary. Use multifilar coils for primary and thick secondary coil to get high voltage. Output would be higher than input when the voltage in the secondary exceeds 2 times the input voltage. Possibly earlier. Secondary should be thicker than primary.

You will have higher number of turns in the primary due to use of multifilar coils. As inductive impedance increases the current drawn would decrease as you add more multifilar primaries. In the secondary as voltage increases current will also increase.

Please stay at least six to eight feet away from the electromagnets. Otherwise they affect our health.

Can it be made to run on its own. Possible but I have not tried it.

All primaries should be wound in the same direction and in the same way"

Much appriciated
Jeg
Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 31, 2020, 01:48:54 AM
@Jeg


The problems with our modern educational system are that we teach specifics
Instead of actual knowledge.
This occurred over the last two decades through abuse of our accreditation system.
To cater to companies specific job types.
Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: Jeg on July 31, 2020, 09:48:47 AM
@Jeg


The problems with our modern educational system are that we teach specifics
Instead of actual knowledge.
This occurred over the last two decades through abuse of our accreditation system.
To cater to companies specific job types.

This is so true! Year after year i discover something that it is just never been told or written in books except in patents that are here and there! But as general awareness increases, i believe that it is a matter of time until we all have a selfrunner on our desks. Hopefully! :)

By the way. I already built a coil to test. Eight layers of 0,75mm total inductance of 1mH 2,5Ω as a primary. 4mm secondary having a total 2,3mH of inductance. I still haven't reach the double voltage at the output but next days i will add more cable at the secondary side until to double the input voltage.

Best Regards
Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: NRamaswami on July 31, 2020, 12:40:51 PM
Sir

I used 4 sq mm insulated wire that is rated to be able to carry 24 amps for transmission purposes.

My memory is that if a wire rated at 24 amps in coils it should not be used for more than 12 amps.

The wire that you indicate as being used is probably rated at 6 or 7 amps fir transmission purposes and is a high resistance wire. This is normally used for house Electrical purposes if I remember correctly.

Higher the diameter of the wire greater is the ability to carry current and lower the resistance.

Small wires I remember will not work. If I remember correctly Hubbard used very thick double insulated wires.

Unfortunately when I checked my old mails and notes I find that Patrick has instructed me to forget experiments that gave anomalous results and to destroy my notes. This I have done. The Engineer who worked with me in 2013 passed away in that year itself.

I am afraid that I may not be of much use.

I don't think  that what's written about Hubbard and Figuera on the net in any place to be true. I have tried them but found that the writing is against principles.

Fir example

A conductor subjected to a time varying magnetic field gets induced electricity

The induced secondary opposes the inducing primary.

If the primary goes from top to bottom secondary will come bottom to top

If primary goes CCW
secondary will come CW

If primary goes inner to outer
Secondary will come outer to inner

This is how secondary opposes primary

This is a basic principle

In the coil I described you can wind the secondary as indicated and primary and you will find that you can increase efficiency by continuing to wind secondary above the primary. I have measured up to 114 percent efficiency but dismissed it as measurements error or instruments error.

Unless you try to use thick coils and large electromagnets I don't know how you would get results.

Unfortunately I have gone through many health problems in the last seven years. Heart problem, mild stroke, TB, Asthma and wheezing, severely weakened legs and feet and hip and I don't want to do these experiments.

I have also wound a very large electromagnet using 1100 metres of 4 sq mm wireas a 100 metre long 11 filar coil. Between each layer I put  thick plastic sheets and iron rods. We ended up with a very heavy electromagnet 18 inch long and approximately 24 inches in diameter.

The inductive impedance was so high yhat the coil draw only 110 watts but the core was saturated. If we use more wires then it's possible to bring down the input to just about 10 watts. Still we will have a very large and powerful electromagnet.

I believe that it may be possible to get higher output than the input if we place a secondary in between the north pole and south pole of such large electromagnets.

This very honestly I could not test. I could not afford it.

Unfortunately there's a lot of opposition to this kind of experiments from my family as all of us think that my health problems are some how associated with these large and powerful Electromagnetic fields. 

I therefore withdraw and please accept my sincere Apologies.

Regards

Ramaswami Natarajan


If

Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: Jeg on July 31, 2020, 01:12:41 PM
Sir

I used 4 sq mm insulated wire that is rated to be able to carry 24 amps for transmission purposes.

My memory is that if a wire rated at 24 amps in coils it should not be used for more than 12 amps.

The wire that you indicate as being used is probably rated at 6 or 7 amps fir transmission purposes and is a high resistance wire. This is normally used for house Electrical purposes if I remember correctly.

Higher the diameter of the wire greater is the ability to carry current and lower the resistance.

Small wires I remember will not work. If I remember correctly Hubbard used very thick double insulated wires.

Unfortunately when I checked my old mails and notes I find that Patrick has instructed me to forget experiments that gave anomalous results and to destroy my notes. This I have done. The Engineer who worked with me in 2013 passed away in that year itself.

I am afraid that I may not be of much use.

I don't think  that what's written about Hubbard and Figuera on the net in any place to be true. I have tried them but found that the writing is against principles.

Fir example

A conductor subjected to a time varying magnetic field gets induced electricity

The induced secondary opposes the inducing primary.

If the primary goes from top to bottom secondary will come bottom to top

If primary goes CCW
secondary will come CW

If primary goes inner to outer
Secondary will come outer to inner

This is how secondary opposes primary

This is a basic principle

In the coil I described you can wind the secondary as indicated and primary and you will find that you can increase efficiency by continuing to wind secondary above the primary. I have measured up to 114 percent efficiency but dismissed it as measurements error or instruments error.

Unless you try to use thick coils and large electromagnets I don't know how you would get results.

Unfortunately I have gone through many health problems in the last seven years. Heart problem, mild stroke, TB, Asthma and wheezing, severely weakened legs and feet and hip and I don't want to do these experiments.

I have also wound a very large electromagnet using 1100 metres of 4 sq mm wireas a 100 metre long 11 filar coil. Between each layer I put  thick plastic sheets and iron rods. We ended up with a very heavy electromagnet 18 inch long and approximately 24 inches in diameter.

The inductive impedance was so high yhat the coil draw only 110 watts but the core was saturated. If we use more wires then it's possible to bring down the input to just about 10 watts. Still we will have a very large and powerful electromagnet.

I believe that it may be possible to get higher output than the input if we place a secondary in between the north pole and south pole of such large electromagnets.

This very honestly I could not test. I could not afford it.

Unfortunately there's a lot of opposition to this kind of experiments from my family as all of us think that my health problems are some how associated with these large and powerful Electromagnetic fields. 

I therefore withdraw and please accept my sincere Apologies.

Regards

Ramaswami Natarajan


If

Sir Natarajan
You have already contributed the best. I think that you should listen to your people and stay away from these unhealthy magnetic fields. I wish you a quick recovery of your health and if you have time we'll be here to listen more of your experience.

ps. You know, what you have described is also what Daniel McFarland Cook was doing back then. I had built once a coil in these huge specifications but never thought to plug it in mains 220V. So i missed the effect.   
Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 31, 2020, 10:50:07 PM
If anyone has access to the full Clemente patents i would lobe to see them.


I have made a full analysis of the 1902 device commented on by Nikola Tesla.
While presented as 3 parts, the device itself is only one part.
The second part being a variable resistor
And the 3rd, and a timing circuit.
In our modern times these components can be replaced as followed:


Part 2: can be replaced by a series of 10-100 Ohm potientiometers
Part 3: can be replaced by an integrated circuit timer. (at the IC operating cost)
Please note: the “automotive-style rotary distributor” used in the original device
                   included some quantity of current draw from the battery to rotate.


I have included some crude sketches to display (what i believe is) the most efficient method.
This is to share the second coil of the first stack with the first coil of the next consecutive stack.
As shown in the 2nd drawing.
Pick-up coils (P) are connected in series, each Induction Coil has its own lead from the timer.


The 3rd image includes a timing table, the (Inc) value will be tuned for performance.
These numerical values are often measured in milliseconds on the IC
My math is decimals of whole seconds so do not forget to move the decimal.


I have included a theoretical assessment of voltage and current values of the “ideal case”
and timing increment maximums for both 50 and 60 Hz cycles.


Before you begin, I recommend creating shielding walls of multi-layered inductive sheet metal
Such as the casing metal from decommissioned microwave ovens.


While there does not appear to be an inherent danger, there are possible high-frequency emissions at certain timing configurations, resultant from signal reflection and colliding peaks.
I would expect at these nodes, to find a decrease in output performance, therefore a final version
should (theoretically) have minimal high frequency emission.


The physical configuration of my drawing is in a straight line, however circular configuration would be further beneficial.





Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 31, 2020, 10:56:19 PM
About wire guages (before anyone asks...)


The “ideal case”: the pick up wire is 2x the diameter of the induction coil wire.
Without dealing with too much technical discussion, there are 2 inductors, therefore:
General rule of thumb
Double the thickness of the pick-up
OR
double its length


(I/V)



Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 31, 2020, 11:25:44 PM
About the variable resistance of each step in the induction circuit::
The first coil has the highest resistance, and therefore the lowest current
resistance is decreased (by ~10 Ohms in the original device) for each consecutive coil.
Therefore: a separate trim pot should be used for each induction coil.
and each tuned appropriately such that maximum output on the pick-up coils is achieved at each series junction.
Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: sm0ky2 on July 31, 2020, 11:28:22 PM
I recommend beginning your research with a 12v source
And work your way up from there if you feel it necessary.



Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: Magluvin on August 01, 2020, 01:44:45 AM
Sir Natarajan
You have already contributed the best. I think that you should listen to your people and stay away from these unhealthy magnetic fields. I wish you a quick recovery of your health and if you have time we'll be here to listen more of your experience.

ps. You know, what you have described is also what Daniel McFarland Cook was doing back then. I had built once a coil in these huge specifications but never thought to plug it in mains 220V. So i missed the effect.
As for health issues with these devices, perhaps it is freq related such as Tesla talked about.  Good eff can be had below 20khz. Higher than say 50k, then you just built a radio station and are in close proximity. I like to stay low freq.  So maybe there could be changes to make it lower freq?
There are power supplies that can run near 150khz.  not sure its necessary, other than the need for a super stable output for sensitive equipment.

Mags
Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: Magluvin on August 01, 2020, 01:56:11 AM
As for health issues with these devices, perhaps it is freq related such as Tesla talked about.  Good eff can be had below 20khz. Higher than say 50k, then you just built a radio station and are in close proximity. I like to stay low freq.  So maybe there could be changes to make it lower freq?
There are power supplies that can run near 150khz.  not sure its necessary, other than the need for a super stable output for sensitive equipment.

Mags
I have some theories on the car Tesla had in 1938.  The electric motor was 3ft wide and 2 ft long. Good torque and an AC motor.  I would think that since it is an AC motor, if you wound it bifi so the stators and or rotor were able to resonate at the same freq, maybe all you would have to do is apply pulses to the motor windings and the motor runs on its own ac currents by way of the oscillations of the excited bifi coils.  Something that large, I imagine anyway, would most likely be below 20khz. In the various versions of the story, if it were below 15khz, there may have been mention of that sound when it was running. My ebike, I can hear the 15khz when it is full throttle.
I have steered away from the NMR as some in the past claimed headaches and such.

Mags
Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: sm0ky2 on August 01, 2020, 02:23:45 AM
Thanks Mags


The frequencies of concern in this device are as follows:
(as it pertains to mutations of the original 1902 technology)


The higher harmonics of the 200Hz frequency.
This is due to the switching frequency, being a multiple of 50
Which happens to ring in right at the 800 Hz node. (16 coil distributor)
So the most intense radiation will emanate from higher harmonics of 800Hz


The danger to us is in the ultrasonic range and above
Which will be captured 100% by microwave oven shielding.


Different variations of coils and switching mechanisms will produce harmonics of other frequencies.


Our Swami may know of a book in his country that speaks of the frequencies and their effects on the human body, as was known to them thousands of years ago.




But.....   back to the technology:::




Once you understand what it is we are doing, you can arrange the coils on a Toroid as in the image below:


The pick-up coil can be wound Bi-Filar, as recommended by our Swami and confirmed by historical research.
The second image shows the bi-filar arrangement such that the magnetic field of the first coil opposes that of the second.
A center tap can be placed at the junction for test purposes.


Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: Jeg on August 01, 2020, 10:24:55 AM
Thanks for sharing guys!
I wonder. Is a Faraday cage adequate for suppressing those fields?
Personally i feel the more head pain when i fire with very thin pulses my ferrite cores. On the other hand when i am doing that i don't usually let my contraptions operating for more than 1 minute. It is enough for me to capture the waveform and analyze it. ::)




Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: sm0ky2 on August 01, 2020, 04:17:45 PM
Thanks for sharing guys!
I wonder. Is a Faraday cage adequate for suppressing those fields?
Personally i feel the more head pain when i fire with very thin pulses my ferrite cores. On the other hand when i am doing that i don't usually let my contraptions operating for more than 1 minute. It is enough for me to capture the waveform and analyze it. ::)


Yes but only in an advanced technical form.
I’ll try to explain:


The “faraday cage”, in and of itself, is only capable of blocking / diverting a specific frequency or range of frequencies, depending upon the material and physical construct.
What would be required here would be several layers of cages of varying allowance bands.
To cover broad spectrum emissions.


Plate metal shielding provides greater coverage with less physical complications.
We dont need a lead wall, (x-ray machine), because:
 we arent hitting quite that high of frequencies or energy levels.


Microwave shielding may be the cheapest and easiest form of protection.
Or other similar multi-layer shielding made of a ferrous material.


Non-ferrous materials will block em of high frequency and energy,
However, such materials will NOT block lower frequency, low energy magnetic fields.
Nor can they block extremely high frequency, high energy magnetic fields - which is why it is used in the microwave oven.
Microwaves are different, in that they carry a heavy portion of the magnetic field with the em.


Faraday cages are designed more for things like radio waves, electronic communications emissions, etc. that carry most of their energy in the electric - rather than the magnetic domain.


Circuits like this require magnetic, rather than electric shielding.


I hope that makes sense


The casing from a desktop computer would provide more than adequate protection, at a much greater cost.

Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: sm0ky2 on August 01, 2020, 04:24:52 PM
Most of this is described in the current F.C.C. Mandates
But from the perspective of guidelines to follow, with no differentiation between safety regulations and law’s intended to prevent interference.


But if those rules are followed, both situations are (mostly) covered,
to within a specified distance from whatever device you construct.


There are electronics engineering books that talk about how to implement shielding without major electrical cost or interference with internal circuit operations.
If your shielding causes a “drain” or other negative effects, this knowledge can be useful.
Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: Jeg on August 01, 2020, 04:26:49 PM

The casing from a desktop computer would provide more than adequate protection, at a much greater cost.
Thanks for the info smoky!
Does the case need grounding of some short?
Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: sm0ky2 on August 01, 2020, 04:28:32 PM
Thanks for the info smoky!
Does the case need grounding of some short?


If you did it would only be to the common of the battery circuit.
So long as you arent powering it from the utility mains,
there should be no need for a true ‘earth ground’
Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: Jeg on August 01, 2020, 04:32:05 PM
Cool! I think i'll modify my bench for safer experiments. Thanks a lot! ;)
Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: sm0ky2 on August 01, 2020, 04:32:07 PM

If you did it would only be to the common of the battery circuit.
So long as you arent powering it from the utility mains,
there should be no need for a true ‘earth ground’


If you look at how the electronics ate grounded when there is a power supply or voltage converter or sorts, the case is only grounded to the converted source, not the ground plug of the 3-prong


The POWER supply, however, is grounded on the back end, which is why if you have something like a 120 to 12v converter you may see 3 in the wall and only a + and - on the 12v side.
The 12v circuit (if grounded) is then grounded to the (-) of the 12v.
Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: sm0ky2 on August 01, 2020, 04:34:22 PM
Also:
If you earth ground a battery circuit anywhere close to civilization,
You are introducing a potential voltage.
Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: NRamaswami on August 02, 2020, 07:14:58 AM
I think I have to clarify this

I have tried to experiment with saturated cores..how long they will take to heat up etc..

I think it is this that has created the problem

We can easily avoid it by a shielding or just by standing away at a distance

Magnetic fields very quickly dissipate with increasing distance

I also had prior health problems that got aggravated..other healthy staff who are younger and who worked with me are not affected..

So it's not very scary..most researchers are not young...so if you are quite young and healthy and fit just standing away at a distance with a grounded metal plate should block these fields..

Frequency is only 50 Hz but it's the intensity of the magnetic fields that are worrying

The pick up coil..if it means secondary coil then your understanding is not correct about multifilar coils

A multifilar coil actually increases the inductive impedance in AC. It requires alot of voltage for the same current to flow through it and prevents or reduces the flow of current at lower voltage.. This inductive impedance is not present if we used pulsed DC..when we put a diode bridge  to AC the output from that is pulsed DC.. this is my understanding and probably my terminology is wrong..I apologise for any mistakes.. secondary or output coil if made bifilar or multifilar shows lot of voltage but once we give any load shows zero voltage..no use..

No..very low voltage experiments don't produce any results..I started with 12 and then went to 40 and then moved to 220..I didn't dare to go beyond that..In Tesla coil we have gone to 7500 volts AC but it's so fully shielded and 100 milliamps small transformer and the resulting radio frequency Tesla coil we limited to 120000 volts.. radio frequency and so not much to worry..we were able to draw sparks upto 4 inches but as it's radio frequency and testing is fir seconds only nothing to worry. These were done with Electrical Engineer trained in high voltage..

Hendershot was reported to have used 1600 volts and Hubbard 11500 volts but this kind of information very quickly disappeared..

McFarland Cook patent is believed to be incomplete..he talks about giving an initial input and then says the electrimagnets remain self oscillating.. this is possible only if very large and very high voltage and very high capacity capacitor bank is used. There were at least four sets of coils and the presence of capacitor bank is required to create an illusion of motor generator kind of thing..the system would be oscillated only so long as the capacitor bank is not discharged. My impression was that at that time saturating the core would have been a technical problem to be solved and saturation of core was required to make a powerful permanent magnet..

This type of large and very high capacity capacitor technology is reported to be lost..it would have been taken out of literature..
There's no instance of Cook device being used anywhere..

I have not trusted anything written anywhere by anyone but experimented and verified..most of the time I and Patrick found only misinformation being presented as the correct information..

No one would give away technology and most of the time it is delay,divert, deviate, disrupt and make it obsolete to be used in technology..

The only free energy device is the Tesla's Radiant Energy Device patent application.

Even here Patrick was very insistent that the top plate is a capacitor bank of high capacity to which spark from a Tesla coil was employed.. Patrick was insistent that Don Smith demonstrated that using this method anywhere from 100-1000 amps would flow from the capacitor to the ground.. Tesla coil needs high voltage and not current..but there's no indication about the capacitor plate at the top in Tesla's Patent application. There's obviously no information available about the capacitor.

Therefore please don't believe anything that you read.. experimental results triumph every thing written..

Patent or non Patent disinformation is common..

Patrick believed one description of a device to be very genuine coming from a very honest person..

When I built the device each step of the way we had to send him photos for him to verify that the turns are wound properly and the number of turns matched the description..

When we built and tested it it didn't work..in fact electromagnets in half the place failed to magnetize while the rest were magnetized. Information provided to him was not accurate. I have spent a lot of money and time on this and Patrick was disappointed to say the least. Offered to reimburse me which I declined.

This is for very trustworthy information given in confidence. You can very well imagine what is the credibility of info written in other places..

Experiment verify and then only you can trust it.

A self runner would need high voltage,high voltage capacitors, bleeding resistors for safety, spark plug to drain excess current if any, a tertiary that cannot be seen by Primary..these are minimum requirements..

I am told that I am not entitled to do research at high voltage..I was told to limit myself to 12 volt DC or 40 volt AC. This is what Patrick also stipulated..As there was nothing to learn I went upto 220 volts.

Therefore no self runner.

A tabletop self runner means that the builder is an expert.. Tariel kapanadze and our good friend Nelson Rocha are the only people who demonstrated it many years ago..lots of testing and competence required for this..I tried to use low voltage very large and very low current saturated magnets but it didn't work..

Any every time we measured more output than input by the combination of secondary and tertiary coil Patrick would say no notes disassemble and forget..so no memory with me either..but it's possible to build more output in combination than input devices.. even at lower voltage levels..

Anyway only thing that I do today is why did I do all these crazy things.. lots of knowledge but no use..any experimenter must realise that this is a money draining learning curve and avoid it unless they can write it off.
Not all experiments are successful. Unless you have financial support don't do this

A free energy device is the simple solar panels based device available commercially. No risk of high voltage or large Electromagnetic fields. However unpalatable this is the reality. I could have easily purchased a 10-12 kilowatts solar panels based device for this expenses but knowledge would not be available. But at least your family would not find fault with you for the expenses incurred. So you have to take all these in to account before you invest your energy time and money.

Regards

Ramaswami Natarajan


Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: Jeg on August 02, 2020, 01:40:35 PM
Any every time we measured more output than input by the combination of secondary and tertiary coil

Mr Ramaswami
May i ask what do you mean by "tertiary coil" that is not being seeing by the primary? Is that some kind of a choke or transformer in series with the secondary? Did you use it as a mean to extract the reactive power?

Thanks in advance
Jeg
Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: NRamaswami on August 02, 2020, 05:38:15 PM
Sir

I apologise..I might have forgotten about these things..long time ago I was studying these things..

Please try to find out if I have misled you by winding the simple induction coil where the secondary is wound on both sides of the multifilar primary

Please ascertain if the secondary merges..

Please see if my memory is correct that it may be possible to exceed the input if we reach the twice the voltage of input at the output..

These are things that I tested many years back..due to poor health I have not been active in this field..

My experience was that we need to jump in to the water even to attempt to learn to swim..

Please find out for yourself if I am speaking truthfully or misleading you..

To attempt to answer your question Thane Heins  transformer stated in the book of Patrick comes to mind.. please check it. Not everything may be true and you will have to find out yourself.. many typos and my apologies

I am very grateful for your trust but I am not sure of my own memory..so much of time has passed..

Regards

Ramaswami Natarajan
Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: Jeg on August 02, 2020, 05:59:20 PM
Sir NR
I really don't want to bother you more on this as you already have enough concerns in your own personal life. I already understood the basic points of your experiments and it would be really amazing if something innovative will occur out of this approach. Yes, the only way out is personal involvement and testing. I wish you the best and take care! :)

Jeg

Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: sm0ky2 on August 02, 2020, 10:16:09 PM
As far as i can tell, the Clemente devices were all pulsed DC from a 12v battery
or equivalent voltaic stack


the distributor-style contact points were abrupt and caused a great deal of friction and sparks
these devices are not dissimilar to the device that eventually made its way into the automotive industry. The 16-stage distributor from a diesel truck would be a very close replacement to the original “part 3”, timing would be adjusted by a resistor to the small motor one would use to replace the rotary action caused by the engines crankshaft, or by using a magnetic potential between the needle and positions around the switch, as one done in the late 19th century.


Digital conversion will result in slightly different waveforms, but im fairly certain the effect we are experimenting with is not inherently frequency dependent, as Tesla pointed out with 60Hz application, but rather a function of induction, capacitance, and reluctance.


it is correct to say that the inductee’ (pick-up coil, secondary, output whatever you call it) determines the timing.
The time it takes to saturate the secondary coil is the amount of time the first primary is electrified.
The time it takes to desaturate the secondary coil is the amount of time the second primary is electrified in opposite polarity.
[please note here that the clemente drawings, as well as my own show both primary coils as separate, however they can be a reversed multifilar coil in the same manner as i show for the secondary]
Mathematically, maxwell predicts a time between saturation and desaturation, where the current changes direction, but its value is so minute as to not be of our concern in the circuit timing of our devices.


The situation this device creates could be called an “assisted desaturation” of the secondary coil.
This increases the output current in the same step we are increasing the voltage by adding the secondary in series.
A meter at the ‘center tap’ of each secondary should show not only a voltage increase, but an increase in power, at each junction.





Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: sm0ky2 on August 02, 2020, 10:18:59 PM
Also, the output of the Clemente Figuera device was just under 400v from all known accurate accounts
Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: Jeg on August 03, 2020, 09:10:03 AM
Hi Smoky
May i ask why is so important to saturate the iron core? What saturation offers? I have seen it a lot in similar OU devices. I remember a guy from here stating that as we go to the saturation point inductances go less and less and so the opposition between prims and secs consequently is also decreasing. But this by itself doesn't look as a reason for extra energy. Is it the heat that triggers any kind of atomic or other reactions?

Thanks is advance
Jeg 
Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: NRamaswami on August 03, 2020, 06:31:29 PM
Regarding Figuera device the input was interrupted DC from a battery bank about 100 volts and 1amp dc input.. through a resistance coil circuit the voltage was increased..high voltage magnetic fields were used in permanent magnet cores..

My observation was that iron becomes a permanent magnet when subjected to DC and dies not appear to lose magnetism in interuppted DC in high current low voltage experiments..

In pulsed DC and AC it is an electromagnet that loses magnetism or retained very small magnetic field when we stop current.

I was unable to do Figuera device for I didn't feel it prudent to experiment with high voltage magnetic fields. The space available was limited.

Otherwise the patent application is accurate for application by interuppted DC..Car components should work fine but we could not find the carbon brushes that will withstand the sparks.. possibly low voltage DC would reduce the sparks.. This is something that someone can try.

We can get output voltage as desired which is limited only by our funding constraints. 

If we use AC the circuit will be slightly different but the principles are same.
Again one of space and funding constraints. This is something that is possible to do.
Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: sm0ky2 on August 04, 2020, 12:13:00 AM
Hi Smoky
May i ask why is so important to saturate the iron core? What saturation offers? I have seen it a lot in similar OU devices. I remember a guy from here stating that as we go to the saturation point inductances go less and less and so the opposition between prims and secs consequently is also decreasing. But this by itself doesn't look as a reason for extra energy. Is it the heat that triggers any kind of atomic or other reactions?

Thanks is advance
Jeg


Doesnt have to be iron, you can use air core


you could probably experiment with the effect without ever reaching full saturation
though one would question why



Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: sm0ky2 on August 04, 2020, 12:20:04 AM
Ceramic ferrite cores can switch faster than the low frequency used here
A hard iron, and even some soft iron may hold residual magnetism or not switch before the next pulse


Such is trivial, as a residual field will decrease inductance in one polarity and increase it in the other
Making it essentially balance out because our coil is 1/2 reversed.


For maximum efficiency, i think you would want a core that can keep up with the frequency of the device, but that’s my engineering mind talking, when it comes to FE, the logical is not always the right answer.


Theres still a lot of chaos in my city, but as things calm down i will gather a few basic components for a demo test device, that should shed more light on this issue.
What i am aiming for is the simplest form to demonstrate the effect
Then we can build it larger to achieve the results we desire
Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: sm0ky2 on August 10, 2020, 09:49:13 PM
..high voltage magnetic fields were used in permanent magnet cores..



As we know from electronic acoustic engineering,
this will place a physical force on the coil opposing the magnet.


If you managed to hold the coil stationary, the same amount of energy
would still be lost applying force to an immovable object.

Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: NRamaswami on August 11, 2020, 09:53:27 AM
Sir

Very respectfully I have no theoretical knowledge. I don't even understand what you have written.

My knowledge is limited to conducting some experiments as desired by Patrick. All he suggested were failures. The only device Multiple Wave Oscillator was successful when built as indicated.

In view of the inaccurate information received by him and believed to be true by him, Patrick asked me to play around and try to learn the following.

Building an Electromagnet
Building a permanent magnet
Building a powerful Electromagnet
Building a Powerful Electromagnet using the minimum amount of wattage.
Attempting to build a COP>1 device

I was left to my own imaginations to do these things and no instructions were given.

I have done all these things within four months starting from the scratch in 2013.

Experimental validation and experimental results were deemed to be the truth and I ignored what is stated in the books for I did not understand much of it or most of it.

I have read Mr. Forest saying that induced EMF comes only from the strength of the magnetic field and this is correct.

I apologize that I'm not able to understand or answer what you have written. No longer interested in this subject as this only drains my energy and money.

Regards,

Ramaswami


 
 

Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: NRamaswami on August 11, 2020, 10:26:43 AM
Sir

Are you saying some thing about a single system..

What is single system

One transformer

containing one primary and one secondary where the coils of wire are of equal weight regardless of the gauge or number of turns.

In this kind of devices output cannot exceed input.

Output in this type of cases will always be less than input

It is simple. Straightforward.

This is the kind of things discussed in books.

I ignored the books and played around by experimenting with different types of windings devices shapes et al.

Nothing spectacular about that. If you give a toy to a kid and tell him to play with it,  the child is very joyful and plays around with it.. If you tell him that he can make and brake and create a lot of shapes the creativity of the kid makes it do a lot of things. This is what I did. Subject is very addictive but very expensive to experiment and very time consuming.

Unfortunately I did not study Maths and so do not understand calculations. Many times I thought the results received by putting in values to online calculators were wrong but I could not understand these things. very sorry about that.

My understanding is that what I write you may not understand and what you write I do not understand..

Regards,

Ramaswami Natarajan
Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: onepower on August 11, 2020, 06:46:50 PM
NRamaswami
Quote
Building an Electromagnet
Building a permanent magnet
Building a powerful Electromagnet
Building a Powerful Electromagnet using the minimum amount of wattage.
Attempting to build a COP>1 device

Magnets are peculiar things. It takes energy to produce a permanent magnet and yet many say it has no energy within it. This would seem to violate the conservation of energy because as they also say, energy cannot be created nor destroyed only transformed. So if we produced a permanent magnet by adding energy the energy must remain with the magnet and it's field which also implies the energy can be removed because energy is conserved. A magnetic energy storage device if you will.

Strange isn't it?, that some would claim to believe energy is always conserved in every form then in the next breath imply it wasn't in a permanent magnet. So, which is it?... is energy conserved or is it not?.

Regards

Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: NRamaswami on August 11, 2020, 08:59:05 PM
Sir

I don't understand your point really.

My observation is that a substantial force is available in the permanent magnet. It appears to have a life of its own if I may say so.

A permanent magnet is able to recognise the presence of an electomagnet even when it's five to six feet away from an electromagnet and starts vibrating.

Opposite poles jump towards each other even when they are kept 9 to 10 inches with great force and the magnet is damaged.

Identical poles repel eachnother turn so the opposite poles can look at each other and then jump towards each other so they can form a large permanent magnet.

I tend to believe that some kind of energy is present in nature. When a permanent magnet is made the magnet starts acting like a focusing lens kind of device. The energy appears to move in one direction from one pole to another.

When opposite poles are shown the magnet jumps to form a bigger magnet so the energy can easily flow. Identical poles try to prevent the flow abd so they repel each other turnaround and then merge to form a larger magnet.

Therefore I believe that a significant silent energy flow from the energy of nature is present in the permanent magnet.

Patrick Kelly would repeatedly point out that only one second DC current is needed to make a permanent magnet. After that unless heated it will always remain a permanent magnet.

This is why I think that there's a concentrated energy flow within the permanent magnet.

Please note that this is my belief. I have no proof.

Regards

Ramaswami Natarajan

Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: onepower on August 11, 2020, 10:21:53 PM
NRamaswami
Quote
I don't understand your point really.
My observation is that a substantial force is available in the permanent magnet. It appears to have a life of its own if I may say so.

My point was that if we put energy into something that energy cannot simply disappear otherwise the Conservation Of Energy would be violated. So when people say the magnet stuck on your fridge has no energy they are obviously mistaken and don't understand the COE.

As well, concerning the force from a permanent magnet. A force is not energy unless said force has caused something to move through a distance which is work and this work occurs over a period of time. In a permanent magnet the input energy causes the electron orbits to align and form domains which are held in place. The electron orbit constitutes an electron current moving in a circle just like one turn of a coil in an electromagnet, both produce a magnetic field. This is how the COE applies to the formation of a permanent magnet and the input energy didn't produce the electrons motion it only aligned the circular paths of electrons already present.

Quote
Patrick Kelly would repeatedly point out that only one second DC current is needed to make a permanent magnet. After that unless heated it will always remain a permanent magnet.

I would agree we only need to add energy once to create a permanent magnet. However there are many ways to remove the magnetism and recover the energy we put in beyond something as primitive as heating it up. Many inventors in the past have done it and called it a permanent electromagnet, lol. Can you imagine that, a permanent electromagnet following the same natural principals as the fixed electron orbits in a permanent magnet.

You see knowledge and understanding is the key which opens the door to Free Energy not beliefs. As Victor Schauberger said... Comprehend and copy nature, do the opposite of what man does. Learn how to produce a magnet then learn how to reduce it like nature does. Understand that the Conservation Of Energy demands there can be no more or less energy in the universe than was already present. All which happens around us, all the work which has ever been done has not diminished the amount of energy present... only transformed it.

Regards



Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: NRamaswami on August 12, 2020, 05:07:36 AM
Sir

I agree with you. However I can only observe what happens when I do this or that. Only that I can accept. Heating a magnet removes magnetism works regardless of whether it's primitive or sophisticated. I look at what works within my budget.

A free energy device appears to be a device that would continuously output energy without input. A one-time input to create a permanent magnet is fine.

This can be done is my belief not direct experience if we can use high voltage and saturated magnetic fields. I have no expertise nor safety equipment nor funds nor have we I trained manpower. I am also not comfortable with working in saturated magnetic fields.

Actually on July 3, 2020 I apologized to Patrick that I have no funds and can't do anything to reassemble the induction coils and try to replicate whatever we did many years ago. Then when I received some funds I agreed to redo the experiment and emailed him twice. No response. Another friend of Patrick complained to me that he is not responding unlike his normal habit of answering emails. I came here to pm a friend of Patrick here and it's how I got to know he passed away. We have honoured him by redoing one experiment. It worked as expected.

With great respect whatever is in the books is disabling information. You appear to know something when you say permanent electromagnet.

I can do it. But it requires high voltage magnetic fields that may have to be saturated and it's very dangerous and we will need to hire high voltage engineers. Must have access to a lot of space.

I agree that this will not be required if we use high frequency fields and ferrite cores.

Again there are no funds.

I have no intention to take funds as loans and do these experiments. There is no guarantee of results and it does not currently appear that I can repay loans if taken. Never ever will take donations. That's a sure way of spoiling good name.

So yes high voltage high frequency device can work. I don't know how to calculate or do these things in a precise and safe way.

Not even sure if high voltage magnetic fields are safe at high frequency. I have seen pictures of Don Smith with air cores. Probably the ferrite cores are removed there.

I had a suspicion that a part of devices alone were shown by Don Smith and not the whole.

It's not very difficult to make permanent electromagnet. It is because of the Inherent and unknown risk I have never done anything for many years.

Also I don't know if what I assume is correct. Many times assumptions were proven to be wrong.

So experimental validation is required to make permanent electromagnet but it's risky. I don't have that kind of knowledge nor money nor desire.

Regards

Ramaswami Natarajan

Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: NRamaswami on August 12, 2020, 10:49:21 AM
Actually I'm really surprised..

It is not necessary to build a COP>1 device to build a permanent electromagnet.

This is how I got in to this mess..

I knew nothing about anything related to Electricity.

In 2013, I and mother had to sleep in the bed room in my office as my relatives had come to stay with us due to inadequate space at home. My office is in my first apartment bought by me and my wife.  My mother was sleeping on the cot and I was sleeping on a mattress on the floor.

When I woke up I saw a very little very small very old black man of about 9 inches to 1 feet in size sitting at about six feet high in the air from my foot with his back to me and trying to eat some nuts like things..I got frightened and started screaming that he is eating he is eating..My mother woke up and was rattled by my screams.

Why are you shouting she asked

He is eating he is eating was my reply in panic

The old man was visible to me but my mother saw none

There's no one here was what she said..

Then I showed my finger at the old man he is here he is here

It is only then the old man realised that I have seen him..my finger pointing at him has made him realise that.

He turned his head looking at me and was surprised that I have seen him and very slowly moved towards the west and disintegrated into air.. I could see him slowly disintegrating and disappearing..my mother could not. He did not attack or threaten or say anything..just ate some and disappeared..

I am very charitable person and I contribute every week something to feed the poor. Not less than $100-120 per month. I was ashamed that I screamed like that but didn't know why. I was scared any way.

I couldn't sleep after that and I tried to study something online and found free energy website of Patrick and kept studying..I was astonished by the contents and contacted Patrick.

Patrick wanted me to learn Electrical science and build Figuera and Hubbard devices and spent a lot of time teaching and guiding me..I started spending money to build these devices and acquired a lot of knowledge. I am not a wealthy man and this kind of experiments and expenses were considered to be an insane activity of a person hit by some spirit by my family and therefore there's no support from them.

I myself don't know what compelled me to spend like this and I am equally puzzled that Patrick spent his time like this with me. Probably 700 emails in three to four months from starting..Probably some scientist who passed away wanted this and we did this.. there's no justification for the efforts and the expenses incurred by me. I even borrowed and spent.

I have been reasonably successful in trying to obtain results We have done by July end 2013 itself. Within four months of starting from scratch without any bookish knowledge and Patrick himself only initiated me..He had great faith in Cater Hubbard device and it was a dud. He also did not know much. I some how step by step did whatever is needed to learn and understand to achieve the desired objective.

They Electrical Engineer who worked with me at that time passed away and he was the person with me when we both measured anomalous results twice. My health was falling and then I stopped the experiment. Electrical Engineer Narayanan himself went through three gastric bypass surgeries, elected not to marry because of anticipated short life span but this was shocking to me. To honour Patrick we did a reverification experiment last Saturday here. Yes it was successful and our understanding was perfect and the results are as expected. 

I'm aware that COP>1 device can be easily built and we have built it and experimented it on load and dismissed it as measurement or instrument error. No one is doing it..It is simple induction coil with a multifilar primary and secondary is wound on both sides of the primary.
You are not going to agree that it can be COP>1 The excess energy is present and it appears to come from the environment. But it is my belief. Nothing more. Even excess energy will be deemed to be impossible.   

Most of the scientists here seem to be retired scientists who are very passionate about this field..But they appear to be old and not having any funds and not capable of doing any thing..Alternatively they know what has to be done but because of the contractual obligations just keep quiet. Some here appear to have a background in Armed Forces and are probably retired.

But I'm not comforted here. Many seem to know a lof then they write. So let me move away from here.. Some scieinist fellow who passed away and who wanted to transfer the knowledge has dumped it on me. Not a good feeling.

I have written all that is required for you all except one thing. This I have calculated to be correct. No notes no simulation but mere mental calculation is sufficient for me. It is bound to work. It has already worked for others. I myself have not done this for fear that this can lead to fire or excessive voltage and excessive magnetic field. We neither have space nor expertise to take this risk..

So when some one actually builds and tests something you please let me know. There is no use of talking. Test the induction coil I indicated. That will do.

Regards,

Ramaswami

Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: ramset on August 12, 2020, 03:43:10 PM
Ramaswami
Thank you for sharing the experience which brought you to this study ..we are all of different life experience here..

 But of one mind when it comes to the goal.[forum mission statement above..
most certainly some experiments will follow..I recently had some wire arrive
thank you

Chet K

 
Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: onepower on August 13, 2020, 03:12:54 AM
Ramaswami
Quote
Most of the scientists here seem to be retired scientists who are very passionate about this field..But they appear to be old and not having any funds and not capable of doing any thing..Alternatively they know what has to be done but because of the contractual obligations just keep quiet. Some here appear to have a background in Armed Forces and are probably retired.

Many FE inventors in the past had little more than wood, cotton wrapped wire, wax insulation and mechanical interrupters and managed to prove the technology. Many worked all day and had to do there experiments at night by candle light for decades. In fact the average dump has more materials than most FE inventors of the past could possibly have dreamed of. We have global communications and more information at our fingertips than anyone in the past could even imagine and yet ... here we are.

Obviously money isn't the problem, in fact it never was because money cannot buy true knowledge and understanding.

Regards
Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: sm0ky2 on August 13, 2020, 05:12:38 AM
NRamaswami
Magnets are peculiar things. It takes energy to produce a permanent magnet and yet many say it has no energy within it. This would seem to violate the conservation of energy because as they also say, energy cannot be created nor destroyed only transformed. So if we produced a permanent magnet by adding energy the energy must remain with the magnet and it's field which also implies the energy can be removed because energy is conserved. A magnetic energy storage device if you will.

Strange isn't it?, that some would claim to believe energy is always conserved in every form then in the next breath imply it wasn't in a permanent magnet. So, which is it?... is energy conserved or is it not?.

Regards


The british royal society determined long ago that energy is stored in the permanent magnet.
When magnetic tension is released, a portion of the original flux is released as electrical energy. And
This was mysticised by Ed Leedskalnin in his “perpetual motion holder”.


Mostly a waste, besides the inadvertent losses, you destroy a perfectly good magnet.

Title: Re: Place holder for Patrick Kelly Tribute / open source experiment
Post by: onepower on August 13, 2020, 07:31:17 AM
smoky2
Quote
The british royal society determined long ago that energy is stored in the permanent magnet.
When magnetic tension is released, a portion of the original flux is released as electrical energy. And
This was mysticised by Ed Leedskalnin in his “perpetual motion holder”.

The great thing about the Conservation Of Energy is it answers many questions. I don't need anyone to tell me whether the input energy is stored in the permanent magnet or not, I know it is due to the COE. Likewise any time the field is diminished the stored energy must be released as a magnetic field change due to the COE. Nothing can be created or destroyed only transformed and all that is present remains present in some form.

I built and tested Ed Leedskalnin's perpetual motion holder and it's not like a permanent magnet. Once the coil is energized the cross piece will be held in place indefinitely. Then once the cross piece is removed the stored magnetic energy is released as a field change and produces a current in the coil. The input versus output energy is very similar thus the process is efficient. However it is not like a permanent magnet because once the magnetic field bond is broken there is basically no residual magnetism remaining in the apparatus.

Think about that, the input energy can be stored indefinitely in the PMH then nearly all of it released with basically no residual magnetism remaining. A battery cannot do that, a capacitor cannot nor an inductor and no other storage technologies come to mind. You see the Conservation Of Energy works both ways, we cannot gain anything but we cannot lose anything either.

Sure Ed Leedskalnin was a quack, almost every great inventor is however that doesn't mean he was wrong.

Regards