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Author Topic: Minimal Lenz Generator V2  (Read 9240 times)

Offline norman6538

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Re: Minimal Lenz Generator V2
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2020, 03:29:37 AM »
Considering Boris's MLG drawing 1. as a magnet and coil approach the near edge of a coil one current polarity make a sine wave up or down. Then at dead center that sine wave goes to 0. 2. as they leave dead center the current polarity is reversed as it leaves the other edge of the coil. The Lenz counter to motion force pushes against the approaching coil/magnet as they approach and that same counter to motion force wants to keep the coil and magnet together thus holding back on the coil and magnet leaving dead center. So lets say we have rigged the setup so the coil is open on approach and makes no current so the core and magnet are attracted to each other freely and then stuck at dead center. But at that point we close the coil so induction occurs and current flows and holds the coil and magnet back preventing it from leaving - Lenz counter to motion force. But we counter that with a magnet to attract the cored coil so that the Lenz counter to motion force is counter balanced

So what have we done? 1. we reduce the output by 50% with no current on approach but gained a little from the attraction. 2. We have reduced the Lenz counter to motion force with some counter balancing attraction.

Then what - then comes the measurement of this idea to see if  it has merit.
 I leave that to others to show their measurements.
There is more to this because by introducing the magnet we now have a "sticky spot" that has to be overcome, subtracted, and compensated for.

Potential idea Boris but the "Devil is in the measurements".
I have used a pendulum with a one way switch to measure things like this on a small scale. ie. open the coil and count the swings and close the coil and count the swings - very clear and easy to measure this way.

Norman
« Last Edit: July 08, 2020, 12:05:10 PM by norman6538 »

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Re: Minimal Lenz Generator V2
« Reply #15 on: July 08, 2020, 03:29:37 AM »

Offline BorisKrabow

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Re: Minimal Lenz Generator V2
« Reply #16 on: July 08, 2020, 04:39:52 AM »
Hi ! Parts area may vary.The gaps between the parts may also vary  (Watch the picture at the beginning of the topic carefully).
     By increasing the percentage of free energy, the power decreases or the weight of the generator increases.  But we are not building a plane, but a power station without coal .
      Iron is cheap and there are a lot of it in the world     ;D 
                             

                                                                            I propose to call this piece of metal Compensator .


Regards,
 Boris   
« Last Edit: July 08, 2020, 07:04:43 AM by BorisKrabow »

Offline citfta

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Re: Minimal Lenz Generator V2
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2020, 10:04:55 PM »
I had some spare time today so I did a quick and crude test of Boris' idea.  I have included some pictures of my testing to help you understand what I have done.  The first picture is of the rotor I used for a baseline test.  I originally had 8 magnets on that rotor.  But with 8 magnets there was no gap in the signal from one magnet to the next so I could not determine when the magnet was approaching or leaving the coil.  Also you will note that for this idea to work all magnets must face the same way so that a rectifier could be used to only conduct current when the magnet was leaving the coil.  With hall effect or some other type of timing then of course the magnets could be mounted with alternating poles like a normal generator.


With the rotor without any washers I got the following results after allowing the test to run for a while to get everything warmed up and stabilized.  The rotor speed was 1560 according to my laser tach.  The output volts were 5.74 volts DC across a 393 ohm load rectifying only the part of the cycle with the magnet leaving the coil.  The input voltage to the scooter motor was 13.77 volts.  I realize this is not a very good test bed for this test but I just used what I had handy by modifying my test setup.


The second picture shows the rotor with some 1/4 inch washers installed next to the magnets.  There are 3 of them in each position stacked on top of one another in the holes I added to the rotor.


After allowing the test setup to run again for a while to let everything stabilize I got the following results.  The rpm according to the tach was now slightly higher at 1563 rpm.  The surprise was that the voltage had gone up by more than .2 of a volt from 5.74 to 5.98 across the same 393 ohm load.  My input voltage to the scooter motor was slightly lower at 13.75 volts.


The last picture is of the test setup running.  When the picture was taken things had not yet stabilized so the voltage readings on the meter does not agree with what I have posted.  You can see from the scope shot in the background that I was rectifying the last half of the cycle.  The input voltage and rpm changes are not really large enough to pay much attention to in my opinion.  But what is interesting to me is why did the output voltage go up so much?  I am puzzled by that.


Perhaps someone with more time and better building skills than mine would like to pursue this further because I am convinced adding the washers to the rotor DID cause the output voltage to go up.


Carroll

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Re: Minimal Lenz Generator V2
« Reply #17 on: July 08, 2020, 10:04:55 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: Minimal Lenz Generator V2
« Reply #18 on: July 08, 2020, 11:20:55 PM »

....
But what is interesting to me is why did the output voltage go up so much?  I am puzzled by that. 


Perhaps someone with more time and better building skills than mine would like to pursue this further because I am convinced adding the  washers to the rotor DID cause the output voltage to go up. 

....
 

Hi Carroll,

Yes, adding the washers is the most likely explanation for the output voltage increase. This is because I think the washers increase the gen coil inductance a little whenever they pass in front of the coil.   If you happen to have an L meter, I think it would show an increase when you position a washer to face the coil.

Thanks for doing this test and sharing your result! 

Gyula

Offline norman6538

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Re: Minimal Lenz Generator V2
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2020, 12:45:52 AM »
Good work Carroll. But what we really need is watts in and watts out.
I'm like you. I think it can be tweaked into something important.

Norman

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Re: Minimal Lenz Generator V2
« Reply #19 on: July 09, 2020, 12:45:52 AM »
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Offline bistander

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Re: Minimal Lenz Generator V2
« Reply #20 on: July 09, 2020, 01:21:14 AM »
Nice test citfta. About higher generated voltage with washers, did you check to see that the air gap distance was the same as baseline? A slight difference could cause it.
Regards,
bi

Offline BorisKrabow

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Re: Minimal Lenz Generator V2
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2020, 03:46:38 PM »
Good work Carroll !   You can do a simple test. Measure the motor current with an ammeter and at the same time switch the diodes of different half-cycles . Lenz  -  NoLenz . Maybe we will see the difference . But for this it is necessary to connect a large load to the coil  .
                                      In the picture, an option for tests .


 Regards,
 Boris

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Re: Minimal Lenz Generator V2
« Reply #21 on: July 09, 2020, 03:46:38 PM »
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Offline citfta

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Re: Minimal Lenz Generator V2
« Reply #22 on: July 09, 2020, 04:54:03 PM »
Thanks Boris,


I may not have time to do that today but I will make that test.  That should prove more informative than the way I tested it.  Trying to catch up on yard work today before more rain comes in.


Carroll

Offline Cadman

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Re: Minimal Lenz Generator V2
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2020, 04:59:16 PM »
citfta,

Placing steel close to your disk magnet makes the magnetic field loop around through the washers. Sort of a distorted pole shoe.

It would concentrate the field through the rotor, probably accounting for the voltage difference.

Regards

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Re: Minimal Lenz Generator V2
« Reply #23 on: July 09, 2020, 04:59:16 PM »
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Offline BorisKrabow

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Re: Minimal Lenz Generator V2
« Reply #24 on: July 10, 2020, 01:49:15 PM »
Hi ! Asynchronous motor rotor can be an effective Lenz compensator  !   :) 

Offline citfta

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Re: Minimal Lenz Generator V2
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2020, 03:20:26 PM »
I got some time this morning to runs some more tests.  I think my scooter motor driving my test set is too large to notice any significant change in current with a changing load.  The current stayed very close to 750 milliamps for the entire test time.


What I did see that was interesting was the difference in voltage between rectifying the first half of the sine wave as the magnet approached the coil and the increase in voltage when rectifying the last half of the sine wave as the magnet was leaving the coil and the washers were approaching the coil.


Here are the results:  First test using 393 ohm resistance.
Approaching coil: 4.36 volts
Leaving coil:  5.86 volts


Second test using 10 ohm resistance,
Approaching coil:  .26 volts
Leaving coil:  .61 volts


So it appears that adding some washers or other ferrous material so that it approaches the coil as the magnet is leaving the coil does have a pretty significant effect.  I have a lot going on right now but someone with better building skills should pursue this to see what configurations could be used to improve and test this effect.


Thanks Boris for an interesting idea.


Carroll

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Re: Minimal Lenz Generator V2
« Reply #25 on: July 10, 2020, 03:20:26 PM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: Minimal Lenz Generator V2
« Reply #26 on: July 11, 2020, 12:20:54 AM »
citfta,

Placing steel close to your disk magnet makes the magnetic field loop around through the washers. Sort of a distorted pole shoe.

It would concentrate the field through the rotor, probably accounting for the voltage difference.

Regards
I agree.  If the washer is on the departing side of the magnet, the approaching side of the magnet has less flux because the washer is pulling it to the departing side of the magnet.
To test that, remove the washer and measure the in and out voltages and then add the washer and see if the approach voltage is lower and the departing voltage is higher than without the washer.
Mags

Offline citfta

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Re: Minimal Lenz Generator V2
« Reply #27 on: July 11, 2020, 12:56:13 AM »
Hi Mags,


If you go back to the previous page where I posted my first tests, I did test without any washers.  And you are correct that after I added the washers the approaching voltage dropped and the leaving voltage increased.  So is this something we can use to our advantage?  We are getting a higher voltage across the same load on the leaving side by adding washers to that side.


As I said earlier my motor is too large to determine if the added washers are reducing or delaying the Lenz effect.  A new test set up either with bigger or more coils or a much smaller motor needs to be done to determine the effect the washers are having on the Lenz effect.


Carroll

Offline Magluvin

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Re: Minimal Lenz Generator V2
« Reply #28 on: July 11, 2020, 02:16:33 AM »
Hi Mags,


If you go back to the previous page where I posted my first tests, I did test without any washers.  And you are correct that after I added the washers the approaching voltage dropped and the leaving voltage increased.  So is this something we can use to our advantage?  We are getting a higher voltage across the same load on the leaving side by adding washers to that side.


As I said earlier my motor is too large to determine if the added washers are reducing or delaying the Lenz effect.  A new test set up either with bigger or more coils or a much smaller motor needs to be done to determine the effect the washers are having on the Lenz effect.


Carroll
Hey Carrol
Sorry I missed that.  As they always say, just because there is more voltage, doesnt mean there is ou.  By using a diode to skip the approach induction and then letting the departure induction happen, cant say that there is anything more than a reshaping of the field using the washer as a core structure to do so and it directs more flux to the coil.  So this is the test that needs to be done....

Use the diode to block all approach induction, washer and no washer. Load up the coil and see if the wheel has less lor more drag either way.  Your probably doing that already. Sorry if I hadnt seen that.  If the rotor is bogged down with the washer more than without, Id say its typical.  But if the load gets more energy and less bogg, then it is worth looking into more.
Nice work ;D
Mags 

Offline Jeg

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Re: Minimal Lenz Generator V2
« Reply #29 on: July 11, 2020, 10:29:09 AM »
Hi guys, thanks for sharing your experiments.
As a side note, in metal detection area it is well known that if we approach a variable magnetic field to a piece of iron, iron will develop a secondary magnetic field of the same direction with the inducer (in phase). Copper does just the opposite.It will develop an opposite secondary magnetic field (180 deg out of phase). So perhaps by combining the two metal's opposite behaviour you can enhance the effect.

Best regards
Jeg

 

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