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Solid States Devices => solid state devices => Topic started by: nix85 on May 04, 2020, 03:02:03 AM

Title: Russian voltage multiplicator stacking
Post by: nix85 on May 04, 2020, 03:02:03 AM
I been watching EEV's video on Cockcroft Voltage Multiplier again.

It's a great vid and among other things he makes clear upper side is pulsating voltage and bottom side is steady dc. He explains why in the beginning of the vid.
 
https://youtu.be/ep3D_LC2UzU?t=723

And then i stumbled on this russian craziness.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ibJYu5fvHkk

So they used this 3 stage multipliers from old TVs. You can see in the diagram is missing first top capacitor, but i guess that's a mistake.

What i find strange is how they connected them.

To stack them they drilled a hole marked A in diagram, which is presumably the top part of the last stage, and they connected it to "ground" of the next multiplier.

They also connected bottom side of the last stage marked + to top side of next multiplier.

I made a diagram to compare normal 4 stages to how they connected them. I used 2 and 2 instead of 3 and 3 but same thing.

I find it strange and it sure does not look like the same circuit like normal 4 stages.

But it obviously works, so they obviously know what they're doing.

If someone has experience with these multipliers i would appreciate if they explain this.

Opinions are welcome.
Title: Re: Russian voltage multiplicator stacking
Post by: citfta on May 04, 2020, 03:05:16 PM
 ???
Title: Re: Russian voltage multiplicator stacking
Post by: nix85 on May 04, 2020, 03:40:34 PM
Hi Nix,

The guy in the video is not exactly right about the signals.  There are pulsing DC signals on both the top and bottom of the circuit.  The output is also pulsing DC.

To start with irony relative to your concluding comment about online education, you are WRONG. Bottom side provides constant dc, not pulsed dc, when input goes negative, capacitor in parallel provides +2v until the next positive halfcycle.

Quote
Here is a short explanation of how the circuit works.  I have modified your drawing with some numbers for the caps and the diodes.  The signal coming into the circuit is AC.  During one half of the cycle C1 gets charged when the side next to D1 gets a positive pulse from D1 while the AC side of the cap gets a negative pulse.  On the next half cycle C1 will discharge into C2 through D2 when the AC side goes positive and the other side of the AC signal goes negative.  Since C1 was already charged up to the supply voltage and since it is series with the supply then C2 will get charged to the voltage of the supply as well as C1.

During the next half cycle C1 will again get charged to the supply voltage and at the same time C2 will discharge into C3 with the same voltage as the supply.  Now both C1 and C3 are both charged to the supply voltage and since they are in series we now have a voltage on C2 in reference to the supply that is twice the voltage of the supply.  And with each half cycle the next caps in the series get charged up until you get all of them charged.  But the output is still a series of pulses if you apply a load on the output.

And who asked you to preach the basics of the basics that are already explained in the video i linked. Here is a video for you to better understand what really happens.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IqzA3-bgIIE

Quote
Now the Russian diagram is a little confusing but if you take the second half of you bottom drawing and flip it over while leaving the connecting wires the same you will see that all you really have is the same circuit except the last diode of the first section is now in parallel with the first diode of the second section.  So in effect you have just lost one-half cycle of charging for the caps which just reduces the output voltage by the same as the supply voltage.

Last diode of the first multiplier and the first diode of the second multiplier are switched on in parallel and work as one diode.

It's the bottom caps that provide the output voltage and since there are still 6 caps on the bottom so there is no loss.

Quote
If you have a way to tap into the different caps you can actually take the output from the positive side of any one of the caps.  The voltage will just be different depending on how many caps are between your output and the supply.

Also said in the video i linked and duuh. Also 1+1 is 2, imagine.

Quote
I hope this has helped some.

Nope, you just repeated what is already said, and did it wrongly.

Quote
As a side note a good online class in electronics is a much better way to learn electronics than Youtube videos.  A lot of videos on Youtube are put out by people that don't really know what they are talking about.

Good luck,
Carroll

Ironically it turns out you don't really know what you're talking about.

Good luck
Title: Re: Russian voltage multiplicator stacking
Post by: citfta on May 04, 2020, 06:43:10 PM
 :)
Title: Re: Russian voltage multiplicator stacking
Post by: nix85 on May 04, 2020, 06:59:11 PM
You don't know what you are talking about. I drew the diagram correctly. I only did not include the capacitor because russian diagram does not include it but that is most likely their mistake.

Secondly, it's not me saying output is dc, it's David from EEVblog and he explains why. Like i said, when input goes negative, there is +2V on the second cap to provide constant dc. There sure will be bit of ripple, but basically dc.

And no, i don't know it all nor i claimed to.
Title: Re: Russian voltage multiplicator stacking
Post by: kolbacict on May 05, 2020, 12:34:04 PM
I didn’t make such a design myself, but on "flyback.org"
they said it works. :)
Title: Re: Russian voltage multiplicator stacking
Post by: nix85 on May 05, 2020, 03:43:53 PM
...
Title: Re: Russian voltage multiplicator stacking
Post by: nix85 on May 05, 2020, 07:26:33 PM
Found the schematic (altho modified) of the multiplier they used and yes, there is no first cap.

This must be the reason they flipped the connections, otherwise it makes no sense, one just needs to continue the cascade as shown below, two 3 stage multiplier next to each other.
Title: Re: Russian voltage multiplicator stacking
Post by: nix85 on May 07, 2020, 12:22:48 AM
For those interested in more about this thread.

https://forum.allaboutcircuits.com/threads/russian-voltage-multiplier-stacking.169391/
Title: Re: Russian voltage multiplicator stacking
Post by: nix85 on May 09, 2020, 02:32:15 AM
Best video i seen on voltage multiplier. Too bad this forum doesn't embed vids but ok.

So in short what happens is simple altho it may seem complicated at first.

Starting with negative halfcycle, C1 charges to 12V through D1. Important notice, C1 is now charged in way that opposes the original voltage. In case you wonder why doesn't current go through D3 or D5 current simply goes through path of least resistance.

So now we got C1 charged and voltage source changes direction. Now voltage source and C1 are in same direction and through D2 they together charge C2 to 24V. Important notice, C1 does not discharge, it remains at 12V.

Then source changes direction again, now we have 12V from the source in same direction with 24V on C2 so 36V althogether will charge C3 through D3. but there is already 12V on C1 in opposite direction, so 36-12 means C3 also charges to 24V.... and so on in same manner.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=litsAzP4oqw
Title: Re: Russian voltage multiplicator stacking
Post by: lancaIV on May 09, 2020, 09:12:56 AM
Peswiki,Directory :Paul l. Thermodynamics

Norman F.Ramsey Physics review 103,20 1.July 1956
as sources about circuits their energy conversion
Title: Re: Russian voltage multiplicator stacking
Post by: nix85 on May 28, 2020, 11:12:21 PM
I wish someone here explained how does the russian multiplier above triple the voltage without first cap.

Also, why is ground terminal disconnected from V terminal and what is the use of V terminal if nothing is connected to it?

And what is the use of F terminal? We tap the potential difference between ground and last cap. Why this F.
Title: Re: Russian voltage multiplicator stacking
Post by: nix85 on May 28, 2020, 11:24:15 PM
:)

:D
Title: Re: Russian voltage multiplicator stacking
Post by: citfta on May 29, 2020, 12:17:57 AM
You have already told me I don't know what I am talking about even though I told you had worked on TVs for many years and have over 50 years experience working in electronics.  But I am going to answer only one of your many questions.  You'll have to study enough to realize you don't know as much as you think you do.


The terminal marked F+ was a lower voltage level from the tripler that went to the focus grid of the CRT.  Hence it is marked F+.  It was probably not used in the Russian device.


Title: Re: Russian voltage multiplicator stacking
Post by: nix85 on May 30, 2020, 07:51:07 PM
You have already told me I don't know what I am talking about even though I told you had worked on TVs for many years and have over 50 years experience working in electronics.  But I am going to answer only one of your many questions.  You'll have to study enough to realize you don't know as much as you think you do.


The terminal marked F+ was a lower voltage level from the tripler that went to the focus grid of the CRT.  Hence it is marked F+.  It was probably not used in the Russian device.


I said that because you said that for Dave from video i linked and ironically, you are the one who got it wrong cause output of the multiplier is indeed DC, not pulsed DC (except for bit of a ripple).

I met quite a few of such "big experience" guys at EEVblog, Allaboutcircuits and other forums, you people often don't have even the basic understanding of some key details about basic electronic components and their operation, let alone the deeper questions.

You answered the question i already assumed the answer to, i asked to make sure. Obviously, tapping at any point along the bottom of the stack will provide varying voltages, just like multitap transformer.

You did not answer why are "V" terminal and ground disconnected, why is "V" terminal not connected to anything, you also did not realize that question of how does it "triple" the voltage, that is x5 the voltage according to Russians (7kV into 35) is simply matter of looking at 7kV input as 14kV peak to peak. There is no mystery, they got 1 cap less and it multiplies x5 instead of x6, which according to Russian forum varies from x3 to x5 depending on if input is pulsed DC or AC etc.

You'll have to study a lot more to realize you know less than you think you do. Not to mention other things like lenz cancelation or whatever. But we are all ignorant in front of infinity, yet also relatively wise. Let's stay humble.
Title: Re: Russian voltage multiplicator stacking
Post by: nix85 on May 31, 2020, 12:16:26 AM
...
Title: Re: Russian voltage multiplicator stacking
Post by: Turbo on May 31, 2020, 03:57:19 PM
I see that i'm not the only one who thinks that you are such an asshole.
Title: Re: Russian voltage multiplicator stacking
Post by: nix85 on May 31, 2020, 05:51:55 PM
Just like you claimed "All i seen is words. Words are not free energy and neither is buoyancy." in my "simple and powerful principle" thread...

https://overunity.com/18434/simple-and-powerful-principle/

..and then turned out admitting you were wrong and coming up with ideas based on the principle, so has this bright cookie accused Dave from the video i linked for saying multiplier output is DC, not pulsed DC, and ended up deleting his comments. Funny isn't it, you asshole.
Title: Re: Russian voltage multiplicator stacking
Post by: ramset on May 31, 2020, 09:30:37 PM
Hmmm
Actually ...Turbo and Carroll have contributed tonnes here ,True Turbo was one of the founders of Overunity research forum ...and felt some topics were a little risky to experiment with here///  "effects" which could cause harm ?? [
I had asked him recently [begged a bit] to kick other things around since he is such an asset here [IMO]
as your exchange with  Carroll...?  I think you need a bit more "calmness" and perhaps more perspective to the schematic you point to [what is the claim ?]

// Nix..I have appreciated many of your posts "outside of the box...personally ...I think we need more of that...
but not so much the conflict..
Just one mans opinion

Chet K   PS,  I was going to see if Cadman or member Evolvingape  had some input on the bouyancy topic...they built and studied much there....no stone left unturned...
Title: Re: Russian voltage multiplicator stacking
Post by: nix85 on May 31, 2020, 09:51:00 PM
Hmmm
Actually ...Turbo and Carroll have contributed tonnes here ,True Turbo was one of the founders of Overunity research forum ...and felt some topics were a little risky to experiment with here///  "effects" which could cause harm ?? [
I had asked him recently [begged a bit] to kick other things around since he is such an asset here [IMO]
as your exchange with  Carroll...?  I think you need a bit more "calmness" and perhaps more perspective to the schematic you point to [what is the claim ?]

// Nix..I have appreciated many of your posts "outside of the box...personally ...I think we need more of that...
but not so much the conflict..
Just one mans opinion

Chet K   PS,  I was going to see if Cadman or member Evolvingape  had some input on the bouyancy topic...they built and studied much there....no stone left unturned...

I don't doubt what you say, that they are old members and have contributed a lot. And i fully agree we don't need conflict here, there is too much of it already over the years (as i have read a lot).

I might overreacted a bit when Carrol called out Dave that he "doesn't know what he's talking about" altho he was actually the one who was wrong, but i could have addressed that in bit smoother way.

As for Turbo, he also has a bit of an attitude and when he replies to my thread calling it false or whatever while also being wrong (like buoyancy thing), i also have a bit of short fuse.

But again, we all need to be calmer and think twice before reacting, not just me, all of us.
Title: Re: Russian voltage multiplicator stacking
Post by: nix85 on May 31, 2020, 09:57:57 PM
...
Title: Re: Russian voltage multiplicator stacking
Post by: nix85 on June 02, 2020, 01:47:42 AM
At another forum they think V terminal might be for some negative bias and that it would be tapped between V and ground with a cap inbetween not to short the input on negative halfcycle. No one knows for sure and i guess it doesn't really matter.

Another question emerged from this, when i asked them isn't that cap between V and ground shorting the input on negative halfcycle this guy answered that cap once charged no longer conducts. I said, yea, but that is clearly not correct, all these caps charge up and stay charged and yet they do conduct. To this they have remained silent.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=litsAzP4oqw
Title: Re: Russian voltage multiplicator stacking
Post by: Thaelin on June 02, 2020, 08:12:50 AM
Standard rule there: a capacitor will block DC and pass AC.
Title: Re: Russian voltage multiplicator stacking
Post by: nix85 on June 02, 2020, 07:07:26 PM
Standard rule there: a capacitor will block DC and pass AC.

Yes, that is a general rule, but obviously it's not that simple.

We all know cap is like open circuit for DC and low frequencies according to XC= -1/2πfC, higher the frequency lesser the reactance just like the opposite is true for an inductor XL= 2πfL.

If we feed it AC of higher frequency it is like closed circuit, no mystery here, it charges and discharges on each halfcycle, displacement current passing through it all the time.

Another case is when it's used to filter out the bias in class a and b amps. So we feed it pulsed DC and yet only the AC component passes through. Interesting effect if you look into it, how does it "know" where to place the 0, input voltage can vary at various levels, for example from 1 to 3V or from 3 to 5V, yet the cap "knows" and places zero at +1.5V or 4V automatically.

And finally, the example of voltage multiplier. Let's see exactly what happens, when C1 charges to 12V, now source changes direction, if there was no other cap, C1 would now discharge and charge to 12V in other direction. All sweet and clear.

But since C2 is there, 12V from the source + 12V on the cap (now in same direction) charge C2 to 24V, and yet this does not discharge the C1 and charge it in other direction. I find this very strange.

EDIT: C1 DOES discharge when charging C2 to 24V. I was misinformed by youtube guy The Organic Chemistry Tutor. I knew how basic doubler works but i took his word for granted.

What happens is simple with this correction. When C1 and source charge C2 to 24V C1 is now discharged but on next (negative) halfcycle C1 is charged to 12V again. AT THE SAME TIME (in parallel) 12V from source + 24V on C2 charge C3 to 24V (36V - 12V on C1). This discharges C2 but on next (positive) halfcycle it gets charged to 24V again and at the same time 12V from source + 12V on C1 + 24V on C3 charge C4 also to 24V (48V-24V). And so on in same manner.