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Author Topic: Partnered Output Coils - Builders Group - Moderated!  (Read 17394 times)

Offline EMJunkie

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Builders Group - Moderated!
« Reply #45 on: May 25, 2020, 01:32:49 AM »



Hi Chet,

The Light / Globe transforms Energy, Watt Seconds, Joules, into Heat.

The Machine may run Cold, Coils, getting colder.

Depending on how the test is conducted, then the DUT and Load will semi balance out, Hot + Cold = Ambient. Image below gives some idea of what I am trying to explain.

Measuring machines is an artform, one in which some Metrologist's have zero experience and therefore no real path forward. We must be careful, threads here, on this forum, and on other forums, have been presented very badly and totally incorrect! Wrong methods have been given, for example using RMS is NOT the right method to use as has been indicated by many so called professionals here in the past!

RMS will always give you a positive Number, indicating ALL energy is used! This is not true! A Non-Linear Load, on the Input Side of your DUT, will send power back to the Source, RMS Measurements accounts for this as Used Energy and Not Returned Energy! An incorrect Measurement!

E.G: Bucket One is Half Full with Water. Bucket Two is Empty. You pick up Bucket One, tip it into Bucket Two and put it back Down again. Bucket Two, as soon as you put it down, tips its contents, now Full of Water, back into Bucket One. You only used Half a Bucket, this is used Energy Analogy, Bucket Two Returned a Full Bucket, this Energy is NOT used, RMS counts all Energy as Used. This is Wrong! Used Energy is -0.5, you gained half a Bucket of Water! If the Value is +0.5, you did not Use this Value! This is why RMS can not be used. The Negatives are Important! Can not be ignored!

So, many here have been given Wrong Information! Steering People wrong, many times, when the truth is, they may have had Above Unity Results!

It is time to Educate! This is stuff all researchers should know!

Of course, A Non-Linear Load, on the Input Side of your DUT, is the goal, and the average Metrologist would never know this! The Metrologist, steering others wrong either intentionally or non-intentionally depending on their backgrounds. Those that use RMS and advise the use of RMS are wrong! When you see RMS Meters on the Input, or Scope set to RMS on the Input, you must assume Incorrect Measurement! This is the wrong method!

Best wishes, stay safe and well,
   Chris Sykes



I was expecting quite some rebuttals from my last post, I hope others see the truth of it all and see that some here, have miss-guided others, possibly un-intentionally, or perhaps intentionally. I do not know for sure!

If you disagree with my post, then please explain why! Good healthy debate is always encouraged!

Best wishes, stay safe and well,
   Chris Sykes

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline Thaelin

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Builders Group - Moderated!
« Reply #46 on: May 25, 2020, 04:55:26 AM »
  That piece of the statement made gives the essence of what a good board should be. If you disagree, that is fine. State why and show evidence as to why you see it that way. Attacks solve nothing. Character assassinations will never solve anything. I have seen all too much of it.
  I see so much promise here. Stephan has taken a great step in the right directions.

Offline ramset

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Builders Group - Moderated!
« Reply #47 on: May 25, 2020, 12:18:07 PM »
Chris I suppose I am honestly confused ,and not looking to debate ,just looking for simple methods to show advancements for persons who have no Oscilloscope or exotic equipment
and still want to try and experiment here .When you had written earlier that persons could run things in their homes [and were ?]
I felt a golden opportunity to measure output over input [work done] and give builders a much needed tool for measuring advancements on a budget.

honestly I am at a loss for words ,since I don't understand how a person cannot run a Load in a box [resistor ] with your Device [even feeding some of the power back into the resistor
provided it is all from the same source .

having a benchmark or control to compare to is an amazing resource for making  advancements and my sharing it was not meant to be nefarious or deceptive ..its effective ?

another person asked me how this "fixed loss to ambient " test protocol works
hopefully a video will be posted somewhere for clarity.
I always looked at it like a competition [for myself] being able to beat the worlds best heater ...100% efficient ...the common resistor [when making heat]
I have never seen it done ...

I am not understanding why this can't work for your device [since it runs things in the house already [will it run a heater or resistor ?
with gratitude
Chet // as a PS to Thaelin... yes a wonderful opportunity to grow the community! and giving a test method for the average builder to show advancements in real time was the spirit of my sharing.

 




Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Partnered Output Coils - Builders Group - Moderated!
« Reply #47 on: May 25, 2020, 12:18:07 PM »
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Offline bistander

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Builders Group - Moderated!
« Reply #48 on: May 25, 2020, 03:47:24 PM »
Quote
RMS Power is a nonsensical number.

That is the last sentence in this article.
https://meettechniek.info/measurement/theory-definitions.html

The second to last sentence.

Quote
The active power is always the average power.

And RMS Energy doesn't make since. But RMS measurements are appropriate for other variables when used properly.

Source and load also need to be properly defined.

Regards,
bi

Offline partzman

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Builders Group - Moderated!
« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2020, 06:16:38 PM »
Chris,

There needs to be clarification to the readers regarding the use of "average" measurements on the input of any device.  The misuse of average input measurements can lead to erroneous OU conclusions.

For example. I've attached a simulation which demonstrates my point.  Here we have an inductor charging a capacitor with a ramped voltage for input drive.  Two methods of taking average measurements are used.  The first is use of integrating or summing all the instantaneous products of input voltage and current with many samples over time and then averaging those samples.  In this case, V3 is simply a lossless current probe so I(V3) represents the input current and V(Vin) represents the input voltage.  The waveform math represented by red plot trace of V(Vin)*I(V3) = 167.79mJ is the average input of the instantaneous voltage and current products.

The second is by taking the product of the average measurements over time of voltage and current with a meter scope, etc.  Here we see again with the plot math windows that the average voltage of Vin = 84.983v and the average current of I(V3) = 343.96ma for an average input power Pin = Vin * I(V3) = 29.23 watts.  This represents an input energy Uin = 29.23 * 4.1e-3 = 119.84mJ.  This is considerably different than our first example.

Now lets look at the output energy produced in our circuit.  We see from the data windows in the schematic area that cursor #1 is indicating a peak voltage V(C1) of 172.77v across C1 and cursor #2 shows a peak current I(V3) of 672.4ma in L1 at the end of the 4.1ms time period.  The energy stored in C1 = (172.77^2)*8.15e-6/2 = 121.64mJ and the energy stored in L1 = (.6724^2)*.2/2 = 45.21mJ for a total stored output energy of 121.64mJ + 45.21mJ = 166.85mJ.

Comparing this output to the first method of average input power measurement yields a COP = 166.85/167.79 = .9943 .  Using the second method of average input power measurement yields a COP = 166.85/119.84 = 1.392 .  I fear this second method is what many OU researchers use when they determine their devices to be OU hence the reason for this lengthy discussion.

Regards,
Pm

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Partnered Output Coils - Builders Group - Moderated!
« Reply #49 on: May 25, 2020, 06:16:38 PM »
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Offline EMJunkie

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Builders Group - Moderated!
« Reply #50 on: May 25, 2020, 10:03:55 PM »
  That piece of the statement made gives the essence of what a good board should be. If you disagree, that is fine. State why and show evidence as to why you see it that way. Attacks solve nothing. Character assassinations will never solve anything. I have seen all too much of it.
  I see so much promise here. Stephan has taken a great step in the right directions.


Hi Thay, I agree, you are wise my friend!

Best wishes, stay safe and well,
   Chris Sykes

Offline EMJunkie

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Builders Group - Moderated!
« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2020, 10:16:51 PM »
Chris I suppose I am honestly confused ,and not looking to debate ,just looking for simple methods to show advancements for persons who have no Oscilloscope or exotic equipment
and still want to try and experiment here .When you had written earlier that persons could run things in their homes [and were ?]
I felt a golden opportunity to measure output over input [work done] and give builders a much needed tool for measuring advancements on a budget.

honestly I am at a loss for words ,since I don't understand how a person cannot run a Load in a box [resistor ] with your Device [even feeding some of the power back into the resistor
provided it is all from the same source .

having a benchmark or control to compare to is an amazing resource for making  advancements and my sharing it was not meant to be nefarious or deceptive ..its effective ?

another person asked me how this "fixed loss to ambient " test protocol works
hopefully a video will be posted somewhere for clarity.
I always looked at it like a competition [for myself] being able to beat the worlds best heater ...100% efficient ...the common resistor [when making heat]
I have never seen it done ...

I am not understanding why this can't work for your device [since it runs things in the house already [will it run a heater or resistor ?
with gratitude
Chet // as a PS to Thaelin... yes a wonderful opportunity to grow the community! and giving a test method for the average builder to show advancements in real time was the spirit of my sharing.


Chet, its Ok, I see you have changed, we used to cross paths and not be able to have adult debate about things. The world has changed, I think for the better, we still have a long way to go!

Patience My Friend!

My First machine was 1.0001 Measured, a number that is truly insignificant to many. But taking into account the Machine Losses, we still have at least %10 Gain. I shared this with Wistiti many years back, at the time his comments were less that impressed. The point, we must all start at the beginning! Start this race on the Start Line, don't aim for the finish line!

These times, we have to force changes, we are responsible for making this world BETTER, its not going to do it itself!

I will help others the best I can, but that's all my Plan allows me to do.

Be patient, you will see amazing results if others get in and help themselves.

Best wishes, stay safe and well,
   Chris Sykes

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Partnered Output Coils - Builders Group - Moderated!
« Reply #51 on: May 25, 2020, 10:16:51 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline EMJunkie

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Builders Group - Moderated!
« Reply #52 on: May 25, 2020, 10:22:37 PM »
That is the last sentence in this article.
https://meettechniek.info/measurement/theory-definitions.html

The second to last sentence.

And RMS Energy doesn't make since. But RMS measurements are appropriate for other variables when used properly.

Source and load also need to be properly defined.

Regards,
bi


Hi Bistander,

Very interesting and yes I agree. RMS is only good in purely AC or Sinusoidal Source Supply when there is no Non-Linear Load attached. Other than that, it is not right to use RMS!

Thanks for sharing!

Best wishes, stay safe and well,
   Chris Sykes

Offline EMJunkie

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Builders Group - Moderated!
« Reply #53 on: May 25, 2020, 10:56:12 PM »
Chris,

There needs to be clarification to the readers regarding the use of "average" measurements on the input of any device.  The misuse of average input measurements can lead to erroneous OU conclusions.

For example. I've attached a simulation which demonstrates my point.  Here we have an inductor charging a capacitor with a ramped voltage for input drive.  Two methods of taking average measurements are used.  The first is use of integrating or summing all the instantaneous products of input voltage and current with many samples over time and then averaging those samples.  In this case, V3 is simply a lossless current probe so I(V3) represents the input current and V(Vin) represents the input voltage.  The waveform math represented by red plot trace of V(Vin)*I(V3) = 167.79mJ is the average input of the instantaneous voltage and current products.

The second is by taking the product of the average measurements over time of voltage and current with a meter scope, etc.  Here we see again with the plot math windows that the average voltage of Vin = 84.983v and the average current of I(V3) = 343.96ma for an average input power Pin = Vin * I(V3) = 29.23 watts.  This represents an input energy Uin = 29.23 * 4.1e-3 = 119.84mJ.  This is considerably different than our first example.

Now lets look at the output energy produced in our circuit.  We see from the data windows in the schematic area that cursor #1 is indicating a peak voltage V(C1) of 172.77v across C1 and cursor #2 shows a peak current I(V3) of 672.4ma in L1 at the end of the 4.1ms time period.  The energy stored in C1 = (172.77^2)*8.15e-6/2 = 121.64mJ and the energy stored in L1 = (.6724^2)*.2/2 = 45.21mJ for a total stored output energy of 121.64mJ + 45.21mJ = 166.85mJ.

Comparing this output to the first method of average input power measurement yields a COP = 166.85/167.79 = .9943 .  Using the second method of average input power measurement yields a COP = 166.85/119.84 = 1.392 .  I fear this second method is what many OU researchers use when they determine their devices to be OU hence the reason for this lengthy discussion.

Regards,
Pm



Hey Partzman, welcome back!

You are wise! Thank You for sharing this information! I agree, we do need clarification and also there are catches, thus using the term: "Art Form". I am still studding your example, I will continue anyway;

Please forgive me Partzman, you have not defined the two methods of Averaging, or Mean, you used. Would you mind clearing up the difference and meaning of the different Averages? Also, your load, is it in any way Non-Linear?

In school we all learned the basic averaging like so: 9, 7, 5, 3, 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 1 = 9 + 7 + 5 + 3 + 1 + 2 + 4 + 6 + 8 + 1 = 46 / 10 = 4.6‬ ( Note the extra 1 )

Another very straight forward example: 5, 5, 5, 5, 5 = 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 = 25 / 5 = 5 the Average or Mean is equivalent to 5.

As you point out, an Integration is done ( Addition ) then a Division of the number of Instantaneous Samples over Time for the Sum.

Of course, each Instantaneous Potential Value Recorded in the Scope Buffer, the Samples per Second Recorded over Time, is a crucial to these Mean or Average numbers on the scope. I would be very pleased for your insight as to what methods the Scope uses to modify this buffer to get different results.

It is great to see, your indirect confirmation of RMS being an incorrect method of Measurement of Machines that have the slightest portion of Non-Linearity.

As Smudge said, Synchronicity:

Quote


   double Uf = 7.0;
   double F = Math.Pow(10, -6) * Uf;
   double Q = F * 550;
   double W = 0.5 * F * Math.Pow(550, 2);

   Q = 0.00385
   W = 1.05875
 

   A quick method:

‭       0.095 x 2.5 = 0.2375‬ Watts over 2.5 seconds or 0.2375 Joules Total Input.
‭       1.05875 Joules = 2.5 seconds, to get 550V in a 7Uf Cap = 1.05875 Joules Output.
 

   COP = 1.05875 / ‭0.2375‬ = ‭4.4579. If someone wants to correct me, please, I would be grateful to point out any mistake.




We are extremely careful in what we do, there are many checks and many catches in our work, I can assure you! Many of my Members having very advanced EE Skills as you do.

People are tired of being lied to, people want the truth, and to become an evolved species! We can not do that if we have so called experts holding us back all the time.

It is great to see your Post Partzman, I hope our exchanges can continue, to help show others where the wrong path lays!

Best wishes, stay safe and well,
   Chris Sykes

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Partnered Output Coils - Builders Group - Moderated!
« Reply #53 on: May 25, 2020, 10:56:12 PM »
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Offline bistander

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Builders Group - Moderated!
« Reply #54 on: May 26, 2020, 12:18:52 AM »
Quote
Hi Bistander,

Very interesting and yes I agree. RMS is only good in purely AC or Sinusoidal Source Supply when there is no Non-Linear Load attached. Other than that, it is not right to use RMS!

Thanks for sharing!

Best wishes, stay safe and well,
   Chris Sykes

Hi Chris,

Can you please point to where I or the article indicates RMS is only good for purely AC or Sinusoidal Source Supply?

Regards,
bi

Offline EMJunkie

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Builders Group - Moderated!
« Reply #55 on: May 26, 2020, 12:20:52 AM »
Hi Chris,

Can you please point to where I or the article indicates RMS is only good for purely AC or Sinusoidal Source Supply?

Regards,
bi


Hi Bistander,

That is a statement made by myself, in context with the topic. I did not imply that you had made the statement, or the article. Don't forget, the Non-Linear Load is very important in this topic and is key to this topic as I have indicated.

EDIT: Is your Source Supply is putting Out a Sinusoidal Waveform and the Load is Linear, then RMS is fine to use, the reason is, all Instantaneous Potential Value above the Zero Graticule Line and Below the Zero Graticule line are Calculated like so: RMS = √(P12 + P22 + Pn2 / n)

For your reference: https://www.electronics-tutorials.ws/accircuits/rms-voltage.html

The RMS Always gives a Positive Number, Incorrect measurement if Potential P is being sent back to the Source, RMS counting this as Used Potential when it is not!

Best wishes, stay safe and well,
   Chris Sykes

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Partnered Output Coils - Builders Group - Moderated!
« Reply #55 on: May 26, 2020, 12:20:52 AM »
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Offline bistander

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Builders Group - Moderated!
« Reply #56 on: May 26, 2020, 12:56:29 AM »
Quote
Hi Bistander,

That is a statement made by myself, in context with the topic. I did not imply that you had made the statement, or the article. Don't forget, the Non-Linear Load is very important in this topic and is key to this topic as I have indicated.

Best wishes, stay safe and well,
   Chris Sykes

Hi Chris,

My understanding is that non-linear loads require instruments which are capable of 'True RMS' measurements.

Regards,
bi

Offline EMJunkie

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Builders Group - Moderated!
« Reply #57 on: May 26, 2020, 01:03:38 AM »


Hi Bistander,

No, see the edit to my above post, going through the Math, this will show you that RMS does not ever account for Power coming back to the Source, negative Power. Use the Bucket of Water scenario, and yes
the + and the - signs are very important and should not be neglected!

Resonant Power Systems need extra explaining here, as RMS can include previously calculated Phase difference, calculated before the RMS Calculation is done, so please do not take this post out of context.

Remember, every single Potential Value Recorded in the Scope Buffer has the very same + and - value attached to it.

Watch this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S51Jv8imskk


A perfect Sine Wave, the Mean value is Zero, this is important to note! Again, this shows why RMS still has an importance for Sinusoidal Waveform's that have a Linear Load.

Best wishes, stay safe and well,
   Chris Sykes

Offline EMJunkie

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Builders Group - Moderated!
« Reply #58 on: May 26, 2020, 01:45:06 AM »


Lets propose a single example, very simple.

   1: We have a Battery, Voltage is 3 Volts and its a 2Ah.
   2: We have a Measurement Block, and we can very clearly see the Waveform's.
   3: Our Load is Non-Linear, this is the Input to the DUT, not the Load on the DUT, different things!


We turn the Machine on. The Battery is only capable of delivering DC, Uni-Directional Voltage Potential and Uni-Directional Current - This fact must be realised, its important!

During operation, we see our Waveform's are not straight DC, not Uni-Directional, 0.5% of the Area of the Waveform is below the Zero Graticule Line. This indicates Negative Potentials being Recorded in the Scope Buffer. As we have learned, all Negative Numbers are turned into Positive Value at the end of the RMS Equation!

We must look at the Facts:

   1: Our Battery, the Source Supply, is not capable of delivering Bi-Directional Potentials, its DC!
   2: All Negative, Secondary Values, can not be coming from the Battery!
   3: These Potential Values being Recorded must be coming from the Load placed on the Battery!


So, the Load is Non-Linear, the Load is delivering Power back to the Source, back to Our Battery! Our Battery is being Charged for Part of the Cycle! This means we can not use RMS!

Again, RMS does not account for this Negative Power, telling you, this Negative Power was used Power, when it wasn't!

Best wishes, stay safe and well,
   Chris Sykes

Offline partzman

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Re: Partnered Output Coils - Builders Group - Moderated!
« Reply #59 on: May 26, 2020, 02:22:32 AM »


Hey Partzman, welcome back!

You are wise! Thank You for sharing this information! I agree, we do need clarification and also there are catches, thus using the term: "Art Form". I am still studding your example, I will continue anyway;

Please forgive me Partzman, you have not defined the two methods of Averaging, or Mean, you used. Would you mind clearing up the difference and meaning of the different Averages?

We are solving for input power over a given time period in the example I gave, so we are at some point going to multiply voltage times current.  We will then convert the power to energy but let's just focus on the input power.  In my first example, the voltage and current is sampled at some frequency much higher than the waveforms of interest and each pair of these samples is multiplied together with the product is stored in a table.  At the end of the measurement period, these samples are added together and the total sum is divided by the number of samples to arrive at a true average of the input power.

In the second example, the same sampling method is used but only on one waveform so there is no product involved.  IOW, the current or voltage is sampled again at a frequency much higher than the frequency of interest and the magnitude of each sample is stored in a table.  The samples are then summed at the end of the measurement period and divided by the number of samples to arrive at the true average of that waveform.  However, if we now take the product of the individually averaged voltage and current, we will arrive at a different result as seen in the example.  The only time we can multiple the individual averages together and arrive at an accurate result is if the waveforms are linear.  For example, DC or ramped voltages and currents.  Any aberration in the waveform will cause errors to creep in.

These examples may at first seem the same but the difference is that the first takes the product of each current/voltage sample and then averages, while the second takes the average of the independent  current/voltage samples and then takes the product.

Scopes, simulators, and certain instruments like smart power analyzers, etc, use this sampling method as given in the first example.  Analog and most digital DMMs use various methods to achieve the second method of averaging the whole waveform.

Quote
Also, your load, is it in any way Non-Linear?

No.  All the components used are linear.

Quote

In school we all learned the basic averaging like so: 9, 7, 5, 3, 1, 2, 4, 6, 8, 1 = 9 + 7 + 5 + 3 + 1 + 2 + 4 + 6 + 8 + 1 = 46 / 10 = 4.6‬ ( Note the extra 1 )

Another very straight forward example: 5, 5, 5, 5, 5 = 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 + 5 = 25 / 5 = 5 the Average or Mean is equivalent to 5.

As you point out, an Integration is done ( Addition ) then a Division of the number of Instantaneous Samples over Time for the Sum.

Of course, each Instantaneous Potential Value Recorded in the Scope Buffer, the Samples per Second Recorded over Time, is a crucial to these Mean or Average numbers on the scope. I would be very pleased for your insight as to what methods the Scope uses to modify this buffer to get different results.

It is great to see, your indirect confirmation of RMS being an incorrect method of Measurement of Machines that have the slightest portion of Non-Linearity.

As Smudge said, Synchronicity:

We are extremely careful in what we do, there are many checks and many catches in our work, I can assure you! Many of my Members having very advanced EE Skills as you do.

People are tired of being lied to, people want the truth, and to become an evolved species! We can not do that if we have so called experts holding us back all the time.

It is great to see your Post Partzman, I hope our exchanges can continue, to help show others where the wrong path lays!

Best wishes, stay safe and well,
   Chris Sykes

Thanks Chris.

Regards,
Pm

 

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