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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: magnetman12003 on March 28, 2020, 08:43:49 PM

Title: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on March 28, 2020, 08:43:49 PM
Hi All,
For many years I have had the idea that an ALL permanent magnet motor could be constructed”” EASILY””.
I am very close to realizing that idea.  I am putting the finishing touches on this simple to construct motor.
My question is just who might make me an offer to buy it outright before I go through the lengthy route of patenting it?
I plan to show it on this website after covering important parts.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on March 29, 2020, 06:23:42 PM

Hi All,
For many years I have had the idea that an ALL permanent magnet motor could be constructed”” EASILY””.
I am very close to realizing that idea.  I am putting the finishing touches on this simple to construct motor.
My question is just who might make me an offer to buy it outright before I go through the lengthy route of patenting it?  This is real as I already had it running. It’s basketball sized and the speed can easily be changed from stop to extremely fast. TREMENDOUS torque. GRAVITY POWERS IT!!!
I plan to show it on this website after covering important parts.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: conradelektro on March 29, 2020, 08:56:55 PM
From your wording I gather that your all permanent magnet motor is not finished and has never ran.

Once it is finished, the only thing I want to know is how long it runs without an external power source. No plans, no fotos, no details of any kind, just how long it runs on permanent magnets alone.

Just be honest and tell how long it runs.

If it ever runs longer than a day (from the permanent magnets alone), one can talk about money. Your post is way too premature. To talk about money at this stage is ridiculous. Patents can be filed for non working motors because patent offices do not check the validity of claims, one just has to pay the fees. But it is very hard to get money for a non working motor.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on March 29, 2020, 11:41:36 PM
From your wording I gather that your all permanent magnet motor is not finished and has never ran.

Once it is finished, the only thing I want to know is how long it runs without an external power source. No plans, no fotos, no details of any kind, just how long it runs on permanent magnets alone.

Just be honest and tell how long it runs.

If it ever runs longer than a day (from the permanent magnets alone), one can talk about money. Your post is way too premature. To talk about money at this stage is ridiculous. Patents can be filed for non working motors because patent offices do not check the validity of claims, one just has to pay the fees. But it is very hard to get money for a non working motor.

Greetings, Conrad
Your correct in asking how long it runs.  From what I am seeing now it should run as long as a neo
Rod magnet has power opposing another neo magnet.  I have to cover exposed parts presently and
within a week I will post the motor working on this forum after I have it running for a recorded lenght
of time. This motor is entirely different then any motor out there by far.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: skywatcher on March 31, 2020, 08:32:53 PM
My question is just who might make me an offer to buy it outright before I go through the lengthy route of patenting it?
Same story every year...   ::)
https://overunity.com/18114/whats-a-magnet-gravity-motor-worth-to-you-new-way-of-thought/
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on March 31, 2020, 10:05:26 PM
Here is a video of the motor turning folks.
Shown a little out of focus to hide important parts.
More to come later on  in focus.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: norman6538 on April 01, 2020, 06:29:12 PM
Without more information the most hopeful thing to me is Floor's TD (twist drive) found at TD replication and magnets and measurements. I have made 12 of these in different ways and they all measure overunity in the range of 300% up. His concept is - as two magnets at 90 degrees approach each other easily without any resistance they want to twist and by limiting their movement you can harvest that twist and compare it with the push together and pull apart (there is a little attraction when they twist) work.

Norman
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: ayeaye on April 01, 2020, 06:55:36 PM
His concept is - as two magnets at 90 degrees approach each other easily without any resistance they want to twist and by limiting their movement you can harvest that twist and compare it with the push together and pull apart (there is a little attraction when they twist) work

As i said, for overunity there have to be two paths with different energy, to the state of minimal energy potential, from outside of the fields. That is, we can like enter by the path with more energy, and leave by the path with less energy.

That magnets twist when approaching, by itself means no overunity. No matter how they approach. This is not different than moving two attracting magnets close to each other. Because this is in essence the same, the magnets twist because their poles attract. We sure get energy, but there is no continuous overunity. Doing such experiments is doing things with magnets, but it proves absolutely nothing. Unless one can show in a similar setup that the energy in different paths is different, but this somewhat differs, it is not the design of that experiment.

But this is not about the topic. Well, in a way it is. Cannot people here write their name in the title, so that all know that it is about their work, like their permanent magnet motor, and not any other, and not about how to make a permanent magnet motor in general, or such. Like "[magnetman12003] All permanent magnet motor". Because "All permanent magnet motor" is very general. Yes Magnetman12003 created the thread, but this doesn't make it clear that the thread is about his design.

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: norman6538 on April 01, 2020, 11:55:17 PM
The previous poster has not made nor tested the idea in the Floor machine. I made 12 machines and they all have overunity. If a small force can release a larger force then overunity exists because work in is less than work out.

Its so easy to work the keyboard but not so the hacksaw, drill, plane, vise, hot glue gun after you get it into your head to make and test the Floor twist concept. Usually when I get and idea into my head it takes a day to 2 to make and test it.

 Its all about the correct embodiment and measurements.  I expect to have a capable self runner soon by manually moving the two weights lifted to
1. closing the magnets making the twist and lifting 2 weights and
2. opening the magnets to repeat step 1 above.

No it will not be a rotating motor.

That will demonstrate the concept but will not include the precision switching clockwork which will take months. I prefer to use marbles that just keep lifting and rolling because they are so undeniably  visible.

There is great hope for green permanent magnet power. Get testing and see for yourself.

Norman
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Airstriker on April 02, 2020, 01:06:52 AM
Here is a video of the motor turning folks.
Shown a little out of focus to hide important parts.
More to come later on  in focus.


Big ring magnet at the bottom. 4 flat magnets placed in opposition at 45 degrees to the big ring magnet. Those 4 magnets placed on a ring plate, which is mounted freely on a rod, serving just as a guideline. The plate can move freely up and down. The gravity doing the rest.
Close?
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: ayeaye on April 02, 2020, 02:36:34 AM
If a small force can release a larger force then overunity exists because work in is less than work out.

I don't want to talk about it in this thread, but you did.

False, this is not enough for overunity. If you release an iron object near a magnet, then also work out is more than work in, but this is not a continuous overunity, and this is not the overunity we need or can even call overunity.

What do you call the overunity there? Can you state that exactly? Energy that you get from twisting is your output, this i think is certain.

What is your input? Only the work necessary to approach the twisting magnet, or the work necessary to approach the twisting magnet plus the work necessary to move away from the twisted magnet to the outside of the field?

I can also do experiments, but you did experiments, and i want to know your results.

Ok, i work more with the keyboard, though i have done experiments too with success, but i can ask questions, and i can think theoretically.

And, i cannot just test everything that is proposed. To test, the reason has to be said why that design supposed to have overunity. No reason has been said. The only reason said has been that the forces of the magnets balance each other, this is not a reason for overunity.

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: conradelektro on April 02, 2020, 07:29:51 PM
Here is a video of the motor turning folks.
Shown a little out of focus to hide important parts.
More to come later on  in focus.

I offer you a 100 Million Euros for that motor. Your video convinced me. Do not call or bring the motor, we will contact you.

Do not take out loans or spend more money than you can afford before you get the money from me. What ever you do you do at your own risk. I am not responsible for your actions.

Money promised is not money received. Like a magnet motor promised is no magnet motor delivered.

Greetrings, Conrad

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 02, 2020, 07:41:18 PM
I offer you a 100 Million Euros for that motor. Your video convinced me. Do not call or bring the motor, we will contact you.

Do not take out loans or spend more money than you can afford before you get the money from me. What ever you do you do at your own risk. I am not responsible for your actions.

Money promised is not money received. Like a magnet motor promised is no magnet motor delivered.

Greetrings, Conrad


magnetman12003,


I can pay you more then that!
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: conradelektro on April 02, 2020, 07:44:29 PM
I made 12 machines and they all have overunity.
Norman

I also offer you 10 Million Euros for each of the 12 over unity machines. Your words convinced me.

Again, do not call or bring the machines, we will contact you. Again, do not act foolishly before you get the money. Your acts are your risk.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: conradelektro on April 02, 2020, 07:47:54 PM
magnetman12003,

I can pay you more then that!

Magnetman12003 be careful! "More" can be "less", better take the 100 Million.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 02, 2020, 08:20:25 PM

Big ring magnet at the bottom. 4 flat magnets placed in opposition at 45 degrees to the big ring magnet. Those 4 magnets placed on a ring plate, which is mounted freely on a rod, serving just as a guideline. The plate can move freely up and down. The gravity doing the rest.
Close?


Your idea is very close to what I have shown.  Missing only one small part hidden in the blurred image.
Make this part and it works.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: norman6538 on April 02, 2020, 10:20:20 PM
This is getting ridiculous. As I said  before keyboarding is so easy but not working with your hands. Most kids today could not even cut a straight cut with a hacksaw.

Norman
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 02, 2020, 11:13:23 PM
The piston is a diametric tube from a synchronous washtub motor: Watch the Kick!
It's easier for the piston to travel down for the 1/2 rotation; The kick would be enough to raise the piston if it could ratchet back without the 1/2 upward turn, but the new pressure would have to come from increased weight and I don't know where it would come from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6DzQOn4RTc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6DzQOn4RTc)
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Airstriker on April 02, 2020, 11:35:52 PM
The piston is a diametric tube from a synchronous washtub motor: Watch the Kick!
It's easier for the piston to travel down for the 1/2 rotation; The kick would be enough to raise the piston if it could ratchet back without the 1/2 upward turn, but the new pressure would have to come from increased weight and I don't know where it would come from.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6DzQOn4RTc (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6DzQOn4RTc)


This is cool but wtf does it have to do with this thread???!!!
Guys stop hijacking somebody's threads! This forum already looks like piece of shit because of that.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 02, 2020, 11:49:19 PM

This is cool but wtf does it have to do with this thread???!!!
Guys stop hijacking somebody's threads! This forum already looks like piece of shit because of that.


@Airstriker,


Show us something you built that works, or shut yourself.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: pulp on April 03, 2020, 10:01:00 PM
Missing only one small part hidden in the blurred image.
Make this part and it works

This part is a small motor and a battery below the base ring magnet and it will work for sure.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: ayeaye on April 04, 2020, 11:10:15 AM
This part is a small motor and a battery below the base ring magnet and it will work for sure.

Please you stop here laughing at these people. Why do you assume that they are dishonest people, without knowing that? There are many dishonest people, but one should know how to find out. As much as i know Magnetman, he really honestly tries to research overunity. He may misunderstand something and may make wrong conclusions, but this is not helpful to improve it.

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 04, 2020, 01:30:00 PM
@Airstriker,


Surly you can see the similarity of my pressure to rotary motion and the working principle Magnetman is using.


Placing downward pressure on the 4 block magnets at 45 degrees is supposed to make the ring magnet spin when in opposition polarity? This effect was mentioned by you above; Can you upload a video of this effect?


This alone would amount to perpetual motion if it worked.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Airstriker on April 07, 2020, 01:31:13 AM

Your idea is very close to what I have shown.  Missing only one small part hidden in the blurred image.
Make this part and it works.
Is this part stationary or dynamic? Is it one element or a set of elements? Thanks for sharing by the way.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Airstriker on April 07, 2020, 01:28:24 PM

Your idea is very close to what I have shown.  Missing only one small part hidden in the blurred image.
Make this part and it works.


Ha! I knew I have already seen it before! You're Tom! Tom that has inspired me since 2011 :) I know what your missing part is! :)
Glad to see you back with the updated design! But please tell me, because last time we spoke you said that what made it working was the needed instability (imperfection in the setup) and when you fixed it (used fine materials) it went to equilibrium very quickly. It seems not to be the case with this design (the basic principle still remains here). Also gravity seems not to be needed any more, right?
Also what always wondered me - is it self regulating in terms of speed, or constantly accelerating?


BTW Why not finally open source it completely? There are many ways to do it right if you want your share (which is fully understood). I also think it might be problematic in terms of patenting bacause you have already published publically too many clues. The attorney for sure would tell you more here.


Again, nice to see you back!
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 07, 2020, 10:15:24 PM
Here is the open source description of the motor.
First you must buy a couple of 190 mm ceramic ring magnets, make a round wood centerpiece for both of them and put a 12 inch  8 mm non magnetic rod through the center of each wood piece.
The bottom magnet should not be able to move.  The top magnet must easily spin with its “”SAME””
Polarity facing the bottom magnet.


Now you must buy or fashion 45 degree wood or aluminum blocks and bond them onto the top large ceramic magnet.  In a circular form.   Up to now you will be able to spin the motor easily with your fingers.
Now for the interesting part. Powerful neo block magnets must be bonded onto the top side of each 45 degree angle.
By extending the “””LENGHT “”” of the 45 degree angles considerably we now will be able to get
The setup to rotate.  How to do this is by bonding 6 inch polycarbonate tubes to the underside or topside of
Each of the four 45 degree angles.  Inside the tubes are placed neo rod magnets that oppose the polarity of the block magnets.   Now the GRAVITY weight of these extensions will cause the setup to rotate hands free.
I hope all this information is useful in your individual builds.
ALL ABOVE INFORMATION IS OPEN SOURCE.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on April 07, 2020, 11:52:05 PM
Hi Tom,
Thanks for the description, it sounds interesting.  Perhaps a short video with good camera focusing
on the setup when you let the rotor start rotating from a stand still would be also helpful. 
I know your previous video was deliberately out of focus.
Gyula
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 07, 2020, 11:52:56 PM
Here is a photo of what it looks like without the polycarbonate and rod magnet extensions on the underside of the top 45 degree angles.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 08, 2020, 01:38:11 PM
magentman12003,


Will downward pressure from the 4 - 45 degree- block magnets impart spin motion in the opposed polarity magnet ring below?
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Airstriker on April 08, 2020, 04:47:14 PM
Here is a photo of what it looks like without the polycarbonate and rod magnet extensions on the underside of the top 45 degree angles.


Actually the missing part in the picture would be the most interesting one to see ;) What is that grey disc underneath the top plate? Did the initial video contain the rods? Also you're saying about two ring magnets (190mm) but both in the video and in the picture the second one is missing.
Thanks by the way for sharing all this! And as far as I can see it's a different design than I thought it is.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 08, 2020, 08:06:03 PM
magentman12003,


Will downward pressure from the 4 - 45 degree- block magnets impart spin motion in the opposed polarity magnet ring below?


By extending the topside of the 45 degree blocks with a long rod magnet we have a split downward force as well as a vectored downward force that will spin the motor setup. The vectored force does that.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 08, 2020, 08:24:50 PM
The grey thing under the top plate is the huge rotating ceramic magnet. It’s not marked red or blue.This is a old one I used. Can’t find them anymore but the 190 mm ceramic magnets are available.  On top of this ceramic magnet in the photo is a Thin wood disk and a record disk I have cemented the 45 degree angles onto.  You don’t have to do all that however as the block magnets will attract to the large ceramic magnet by themself.  I just constructed the setup so I could easily remove the block magnets and the 45 degree aluminum supports.


Tom
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Airstriker on April 08, 2020, 08:45:56 PM
The grey thing under the top plate is the huge rotating ceramic magnet. It’s not marked red or blue.This is a old one I used. Can’t find them anymore but the 190 mm ceramic magnets are available.  On top of this ceramic magnet in the photo is a Thin wood disk and a record disk I have cemented the 45 degree angles onto.  You don’t have to do all that however as the block magnets will attract to the large ceramic magnet by themself.  I just constructed the setup so I could easily remove the block magnets and the 45 degree aluminum supports.


Tom
Still a photo or drawing of the setup with the rods containing neo magnets would be really helpfull.
Is the setup constantly accelerating or is the angular speed stable?
Is the top magnet (with the wooden disc) fixed to the central shaft? Or can it move freely up and down?
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 08, 2020, 11:14:54 PM
Still a photo or drawing of the setup with the rods containing neo magnets would be really helpfull.
Is the setup constantly accelerating or is the angular speed stable?
Is the top magnet (with the wooden disc) fixed to the central shaft? Or can it move freely up and down?
It can move up and down freely using a 8 mm brass bearing in the center wood piece.
The speed is determined by how powerful the rod magnets are and how close they can come in repel to the block magnets.
Rod magnets FREE FLOAT inside the polycarbonate tubes at a 45 degree angle upwards.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 09, 2020, 01:19:21 AM
Here is the open source description of the motor.
First you must buy a couple of 190 mm ceramic ring magnets, make a round wood centerpiece for both of them and put a 12 inch  8 mm non magnetic rod through the center of each wood piece.
The bottom magnet should not be able to move.  The top magnet must easily spin with its “”SAME””
Polarity facing the bottom magnet.


Now you must buy or fashion 45 degree wood or aluminum blocks and bond them onto the top large ceramic magnet.  In a circular form.   Up to now you will be able to spin the motor easily with your fingers.
Now for the interesting part. Powerful neo block magnets must be bonded onto the top side of each 45 degree angle.
By extending the “””LENGHT “”” of the 45 degree angles considerably we now will be able to get
The setup to rotate.  How to do this is by bonding 6 inch polycarbonate tubes to the underside or topside of
Each of the four 45 degree angles.  Inside the tubes are placed neo rod magnets that oppose the polarity of the block magnets.   Now the GRAVITY downwards pull plus the repel magnetic forces of these extensions will cause the setup to rotate hands free.
I hope all this information is useful in your individual builds.
ALL ABOVE INFORMATION IS OPEN SOURCE.


The reason I am posting all information OPEN SOURCE is because I am in the age bracket that corona virus
Would probably kill me once I caught it. So I am passing all details to whoever decides to build  the motor.
Patenting would be of no use that way. 

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Airstriker on April 09, 2020, 01:27:04 AM
I cannot figure out how to place the ploycarbonate rods. How do you place them so that the big upper ring magnet allows for that. Do they go on the outer/inner rim of the big ring magnet? Or are they fully placed above the upper ring, just like the blok magnets? Also are the polycarbonate rods set at the same angle like the block magnets? Or are the rods perpendicular to the block magnets?
In the picture below - 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 ? Or differently? Also the question, if the magnets' polarisation is right in the picture you say is correct. Red is the block magnet, green is the polycarbonate rod and blue is the rod magnet. Black is the angle support.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Airstriker on April 09, 2020, 01:34:59 AM

The reason I am posting all information OPEN SOURCE is because I am in the age bracket that corona virus
Would probably kill me once I caught it. So I am passing all details to whoever decides to build  the motor.
Patenting would be of no use that way.

I totally understand your point and really appreciate your work and openness! Hard times we live in...
Now let's try to document the design fully with some nice pictures (will do it in 3d but still need more info - check the post above), videos and replications.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 09, 2020, 01:38:38 AM
I would guess it's like this; this attraction would definitely have a vector.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 09, 2020, 02:08:56 AM
I cannot figure out how to place the ploycarbonate rods. How do you place them so that the big upper ring magnet allows for that. Do they go on the outer/inner rim of the big ring magnet? Or are they fully placed above the upper ring, just like the blok magnets? Also are the polycarbonate rods set at the same angle like the block magnets? Or are the rods perpendicular to the block magnets?
In the picture below - 1, 2, 3, 4, or 5 ? Or differently? Also the question, if the magnets' polarisation is right in the picture you say is correct. Red is the block magnet, green is the polycarbonate rod and blue is the rod magnet. Black is the angle support.
They are placed on top of the upper ring magnets aluminum 45 degree angle.

Your diagram #3 with the rod magnet South Pole facing the block magnet shows this. The rod magnet inside the tube should slip just a little UNDER the 45 degree support and the setup as show will move counterclockwise in this case.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Airstriker on April 09, 2020, 02:37:52 AM

They are placed on top of the upper ring magnets aluminum 45 degree angle.
Your diagram #3 with the rod magnet South Pole facing the block magnet shows this.


Ok, now let's concentrate on the magnets' polarities.
1,2,3, or 4 in the picture below?
Also from the practical point of view - how do you mount the rods so that they are really fixed?
What are the sizes of the block and rod magnets?


Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 09, 2020, 12:21:48 PM

                                                         (Perpetual Frictionless bearing Homopolar "V" Gate Spinner)

Correct position: Guess number 3. The magnetic pole on the rod end should be in attraction to the opposition poles of the ring magnets. Tom mentioned that it was the "Downward pressure" that caused the spin. 4 "V" gates. No "Lenz" effect and no domain shift in the neutral zone necessary. I am optimistic about Tom's credibility.


Perpetual "V" gate attraction may herald a new era of fossil free prosperity; Or, dramatic social political and economic repercussions could domino a "Black Friday" shock wave across the Planet. That probably helps explain why Tom chooses to hide out.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Airstriker on April 09, 2020, 05:26:38 PM
                                                         (Perpetual Frictionless bearing Homopolar "V" Gate Spinner)

Correct position: Guess number 3. The magnetic pole on the rod end should be in attraction to the opposition poles of the ring magnets. Tom mentioned that it was the "Downward pressure" that caused the spin. 4 "V" gates. No "Lenz" effect and no domain shift in the neutral zone necessary. I am optimistic about Tom's credibility.


Perpetual "V" gate attraction would herald a new era of fossil free prosperity! Dramatic social political and economic repercussions could domino a "Black Friday" shock wave across the Planet. That's why Tom hides out.


Let's stick to what Tom says and not guess stuff, please. I also don't remember him giving this motor a name yet, so please leave it to the inventor. Other stuff is not needed here. Stick to the subject.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 09, 2020, 05:28:42 PM

The ring magnet rotor would accelerate to light speed in a vacuum with a totally frictionless bearing. Radial "Halbach" arrays could press the magnet rings from the sides.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 09, 2020, 07:14:50 PM

Ok, now let's concentrate on the magnets' polarities.
1,2,3, or 4 in the picture below?
Also from the practical point of view - how do you mount the rods so that they are really fixed?
What are the sizes of the block and rod magnets?
Number 3 with the plastic tubes extending about 1/2 of the way under the top section of the
45 degree angle.  Yes this sounds funny but it works out without the magnets jumping out of the tubes
South Pole of the rod magnet is drawn downward by the Larger North Pole Force of the ceramic magnet.
Gorrila Epoxy holds all ln place.  Rod magnets are 3/8 inch in diameter and  2 3/4 long each.  Need 2 for one 45 degree angle.
Block magnets are 3/8 thick, 1 3/4 long and 3/4 widh.
Name the motor. “”ROTOR FLOATER””  because not only the large top ceramic magnet floats but so do the rod magnets inside the plastic tubes. The ends of the tube are epoxy sealed just to make sure they don’t come out while the motor is spinning.






Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 09, 2020, 07:19:20 PM
Number 3 with the plastic tubes extending about 1/4 of the way under the top section of the
45 degree angle.  Yes this sounds funny but it works out without the magnets jumping out of the tubes
South Pole of the rod magnet is drawn downward by the Larger North Pole Force of the ceramic magnet.
Gorrila Epoxy holds all ln place.  Rod magnets are 3/8 inch in diameter and  2 3/4 long each.  Need 2 for one 45 degree angle.
Block magnets are 3/8 thick, 1 3/4 long and 3/4 wide


@magnetman120003,


Thank you. You are more ingenious then I gave you credit for. You are a giant in history comparable to Count Alessandro Volta!
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 09, 2020, 09:47:40 PM
The EM drive accelerates like a dog chasing it's own tail defying every known law of Physics, leveraging forces inside it's own physical space:
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: ramset on April 09, 2020, 10:15:10 PM
Tom
Thankyou for attempting to share “your”
Work
Not sure what all these other ....? contributions ?
Are about.


Trying to pay attention!
Gratitude also to member Airstriker  for “trying” to help!


Respectfully
Chet
EDIT
Ps ,I see comment..ssss below
Hopefully member synchro will allow Toms topic  to
Proceed ?
When he’s done interrupting ??


Could take a few months?
Sometimes years ?
Edit again
Tom ....sometimes it takes an intervention ????sorry for interruption
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 09, 2020, 10:29:36 PM
Tom
Thankyou for attempting to share “your”
Work
Not sure what all these other ....? contributions ?
Are about.


Trying to pay attention!
Gratitude also to member Airstriker  for “trying” to help!


Respectfully
Chet
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 09, 2020, 10:45:24 PM
We can't downplay the significance of this achievement. A historic milestone has been laid. All future history will pivot on this advance; If it's really solidly legitimate?

These magnet rings would be capable of self accelerating faster then fission reactors can spin their turbine blades!
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 09, 2020, 11:08:46 PM
like this; these bearings would permit horizontal back to back spinners to be possible.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 09, 2020, 11:48:10 PM
Longest spinning: The flywheel inertia would store like a battery and grow very powerful over time; A group could be tapped sequentially to supply kilowatts!

This kind of overhead magnet bearing would allow Tom's spinner to travel a thousand times faster; Perhaps guided by a sewing needle and garnet bearing.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Airstriker on April 10, 2020, 12:21:05 AM
Number 3 with the plastic tubes extending about 1/2 of the way under the top section of the
45 degree angle.  Yes this sounds funny but it works out without the magnets jumping out of the tubes
South Pole of the rod magnet is drawn downward by the Larger North Pole Force of the ceramic magnet.
Gorrila Epoxy holds all ln place.  Rod magnets are 3/8 inch in diameter and  2 3/4 long each.  Need 2 for one 45 degree angle.
Block magnets are 3/8 thick, 1 3/4 long and 3/4 widh.
Name the motor. “”ROTOR FLOATER””  because not only the large top ceramic magnet floats but so do the rod magnets inside the plastic tubes. The ends of the tube are epoxy sealed just to make sure they don’t come out while the motor is spinning.


Ok so something like in the picture below?
Just wondering... Is the upper ring magnet really needed? Have you tried it without it?

BTW, we actually still haven't seen the motor operational ;) Will you make some video?


And somebody please stop the troll synchro1 ;/ No moderators here?
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 10, 2020, 12:28:27 AM

@Airstriker,

"And somebody please stop the troll synchro1 ;/ No moderators here?"


Are you suggesting that I'm somehow unfit to participate in this thread discussion? On what grounds? My innovations already improved the motor a thousand times.

I am offended by your bossy, overbearing attitude with Tom, ordering him to produce videos on demand. I find it objectionable. You should act more politely with him. Try the please word for a change.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Airstriker on April 10, 2020, 01:12:22 AM
@Airstriker,

"And somebody please stop the troll synchro1 ;/ No moderators here?"


Are you suggesting that I'm somehow unfit to participate in this thread discussion? On what grounds? My innovations already improved the motor a thousand times.

I am offended by your bossy, overbearing attitude with Tom, ordering him to produce videos on demand. I find it objectionable. You should act more politely with him. Try the please word for a change.


Dude who cares about your improvements when we don't know the basic design yet! Thanks to people like you the threads here have like 200 pages and there is maybe like 10 on the subject on them. What's the point synchro1? And you just made me write one of such posts! ;/
Let's find out the basics first, know that it's running, replicate, and then do all your crazy improvements. Be my guest. And if I ever offended here anobody that would be only you mate. Just please don't answer this message - I go to ignore mode with you. Sorry. And yes, I have seen your "Tut Tut pirate" message before you have deleted it. Seriously dude?!
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 10, 2020, 01:42:54 AM

Dude who cares about your improvements when we don't know the basic design yet! Thanks to people like you the threads here have like 200 pages and there is maybe like 10 on the subject on them. What's the point synchro1? And you just made me write one of such posts! ;/
Let's find out the basics first, know that it's running, replicate, and then do all your crazy improvements. Be my guest. And if I ever offended here anobody that would be only you mate. Just please don't answer this message - I go to ignore mode with you. Sorry. And yes, I have seen your "Tut Tut pirate" message before you have deleted it. Seriously dude?!


@Airstriker,


You took a cheap shot then threatened to call the cops; Then you scored a pile on from the "Marshall"! You're just another Jackel debunker in sheep's clothing. You're out to replicate a failure in the end with the Holmes.


You are among the last people I would select to deliver a working replication. Once the principle is understood, anything will work. Your over labored attention to irrelevant detail is a dead end.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 10, 2020, 01:49:50 AM

Ok so something like in the picture below?
Just wondering... Is the upper ring magnet really needed? Have you tried it without it?

BTW, we actually still haven't seen the motor operational ;) Will you make some video?


And somebody please stop the troll synchro1 ;/ No moderators here?
The two rod magnet grouping inside the polycarbonate tube is way to long. Should be 1/2 the size shown
Also flip the entire photo to show a mirror image of it. Now that will travel clockwise instead of counterclockwise as shown. 
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 10, 2020, 01:56:14 AM




@Airstriker,


The block magnet is 1 3/4" and the two tubes 2 3/4 for a total of 5 1/4. Now 2 block magnet lengths is nearly 4 inches. Your schematic is distorted by twice the dimension. What have you been smoking?
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Airstriker on April 10, 2020, 02:21:14 AM

The two rod magnet grouping inside the polycarbonate tube is way to long. Should be 1/2 the size shown
Also flip the entire photo to show a mirror image of it. Now that will travel clockwise instead of counterclockwise as shown.


Sure will do in a sec but you have written:
"Rod magnets are 3/8 inch in diameter and  2 3/4 long each.  Need 2 for one 45 degree angle.
Block magnets are 3/8 thick, 1 3/4 long and 3/4 widh."
So I would say the proportions actually do match in the picture. So which size is wrong? Rod magnet = 2 3/4, or block magnet = 1 3/4 ? Or did you mean 2 x 3/4 for the rod magnets? Sorry if I get something wrong but I'm not used to operating on inches ;)
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 10, 2020, 02:30:48 AM



The polycarbonate tubes are 6 inches in length.  Two rod magnets (2 3/4 inches) long fit inside each with some extra space On each end.  Don’t worry about the size of the block magnets I described  it’s the polarity that’s of interest
In this case. As long as the rod magnets SOUTH Pole faces downward ( in my case) and looks at the NORTH Pole of the large ceramic ring magnet all is good. 
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 10, 2020, 10:25:50 AM
Just to help clarify what Tom's referring to:
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 10, 2020, 10:34:41 AM
Theory of propulsion: (Vector Reflection) Positioning a magnet sideways between the tube magnet stack and the ferrite ring would draw the ring to it like a "V" gate would attract movement. The "V" gate produces a "Panthom V" gate reflected in the opposite pole field of the top ring and the lower stationary ring acts as a parallel magnet and draws the top ring around.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: skywatcher on April 10, 2020, 02:10:41 PM
Theory of propulsion: (Vector Reflection) Positioning a magnet sideways between the tube magnet stack and the ferrite ring would draw the ring to it like a "V" gate would attract movement. The "V" gate produces a "Panthom V" gate reflected in the opposite pole field of the top ring and the lower stationary ring acts as a parallel magnet and draws the top ring around.
Why should anything move here ?  Everything tries to move from higher to lower energy potential, but there is no such potential gradient in this setup, so nothing will move at all. It doesn't matter which angular position the rotor has in respect to the stator, because the stator (ring magnet) is perfectly symmetrical so why should anything rotate ?
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 10, 2020, 03:44:01 PM
Why should anything move here ?  Everything tries to move from higher to lower energy potential, but there is no such potential gradient in this setup, so nothing will move at all. It doesn't matter which angular position the rotor has in respect to the stator, because the stator (ring magnet) is perfectly symmetrical so why should anything rotate ?


It's either spinning on its own or not. If so we need to supply a reason. A shot in the dark.


Any additional theories about the propulsion welcomed.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 10, 2020, 07:25:07 PM
Let's say we attach 4 neo cube magnets to the top ring in attraction. Would the distance between a ring in opposition increase? We are adding power to the repulsion field so the rings should separate more.


This brings us to the question of a tapering distance! I wonder if magnetman12003 has any ideas on how it works?
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 10, 2020, 09:17:41 PM
This is a illustration of my setup with the 6 inch plastic tube correctly positioned.  The neo rod magnets are Shown in place. Clockwise rotation indicated by pointing the aluminum frame work in that direction.  A very powerful attraction downward force is delivered by the ceramic ring magnet below it. If that’s not enough the repelling of the block magnet also pushes the rod magnet downwards.  South underside of block magnet -South rod magnet end - North is the ceramic magnets topside
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 11, 2020, 02:10:58 AM
This is the motors basic design. Shown is only one 45 degree angle for clarity.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2020, 12:01:12 PM
I precieve a tilting tendency. One thing's for sure: Conradelectro can be counted on to supply a special set of failed approaches. He will have help.


It may work upside-down. Suspending the ring only from a ball magnet bearing would help build speed.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on April 11, 2020, 01:10:49 PM
Hi Tom,

I am trying to understand what causes the rotation for the top ring magnet versus the fixed bottom ring magnet.

I understand the repel force between the block magnet and the rod magnet and also the strong attract force between
the top ring magnet and the rod magnet.  But all these magnets are placed onto the common platform which is supposed
to rotate together with the top ring magnet, right? 
 I know the rod magnets can freely move up or down in the plastic tube. BUT I am puzzled by what makes them
move upwards? so that gravity should place them downwards again.  What I am missing? 
Thanks for sharing this interesting setup.

Gyula
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 11, 2020, 06:42:47 PM
Hi Tom,

I am trying to understand what causes the rotation for the top ring magnet versus the fixed bottom ring magnet.

I understand the repel force between the block magnet and the rod magnet and also the strong attract force between
the top ring magnet and the rod magnet.  But all these magnets are placed onto the common platform which is supposed
to rotate together with the top ring magnet, right? 
 I know the rod magnets can freely move up or down in the plastic tube. BUT I am puzzled by what makes them
move upwards? so that gravity should place them downwards again.  What I am missing? 
Thanks for sharing this interesting setup.

Gyula
The bottom large ceramic magnet could be a lazy Susan platform. As long as it rotates.
All it does is support the free large top ceramic rotating magnet above it.
You should build this and see what I am encountering. I am surprised the rod magnets don’t shoot out of the tubes ends.
It seems the rod magnet South Pole end ( in my case) is pinched between the South Pole backside of the block magnet and the powerful North Pole downward force of the large ceramic magnet under it??
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2020, 07:11:55 PM
@magnetman12003.

That's got me in a tizzy to read that! Centripetal force. Do both rings spin simultaneously? And :

Suppose we turn it upside down and try and spin the unencumbered ring? Would that work?
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on April 11, 2020, 07:20:31 PM
Hi Tom,
I understood the bottom ring magnet magnetically supports the top ring magnet (makes it levitate). 

Regarding the rod magnets, why would they shoot out of the tube ends?  How that 'shooting out' force is created? 

To create such force, an assymetry should be introduced in the fields whenever the bottom end of any rod magnet 
is just covering say a quarter of a full rotational cycle (quarter because there are 4 tubes). 

Normally there is kinda flat (homogeneous) repel field between the two ring magnets (South versus South in your drawing) 
like in a normal magnetic levitation setup and this field should be distorted periodically by something to have a changing 
and thus interacting field which results in a rotational force.

This is what is not clear where this force may come from.

Thanks 
Gyula

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 11, 2020, 08:08:41 PM
I positioned two ceramic block magnets at 45 degree angles on a 2 inch microwave ceramic ring and got spin motion on it when I compressed it against a twin ring magnet in opposition. The ring with the magnets choose to "slip to one side" at some point of pressure.

There appeared to be a concrete flywheel around Tom's top ring. Was it Floor who first disclosed this effect?
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on April 11, 2020, 11:47:52 PM
...
It seems the rod magnet South Pole end ( in my case) is pinched between the South Pole backside of the block magnet
and the powerful North Pole downward force of the large ceramic magnet under it??


Hi Tom,You may have added the above sentence a few minutes later than I read the rest before it, I noticed it only now. 
No problem of course and I understand what you say but again my problem is that these fields are static and act within
the same platform above the top ring magnet (if I correctly understand your setup).

On the static fields I mean the attract and repel forces you describe , they result in positioning the rod magnets at a certain
hight above the top plate i.e. above the top ring magnet, inside the plastic tubes and the main question is what makes the
rod magnets vary their distance from the platform ?
  Unfortunately, I do not have such ring magnets at hand, and buying them is a bit difficult in such coronavirus times,
I have to wait. This is mainly why I am trying to understand the setup in the meantime, why it rotates.

Please do not catch the virus.  8)

Gyula
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 12, 2020, 01:52:45 AM
I am 79 years old and catching  the virus would probably kill me.  So far since this started I decided to part with all info about it should I pass away suddenly.  I open sourced the info. There is a lot of questions I can’t answer yet.  Still trying to improve it.  I now think after using only one rod magnet per Each 45 Degree aluminum frame that’s powerful enough.   I show 2 rod magnets inside the plastic tubes but I am afraid to try that as the motor might blow apart with centrifugal forces acting on it.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on April 12, 2020, 12:58:22 PM
Hi Tom,

would like to ask: did you always mean the 'shoot out' of the rod magnets would happen due to the
centrifugal forces manifesting over a certain rotor RPM? 

Or earlier you meant the 'shoot out' happens due to the pinched S pole of the rod magnet between the
S pole of the block magnet and the N pole of the top ring magnet? 
Or maybe both: this latter and the high RPM case?

It is okay if you cannot answer all the questions. It would be good if you could test this: 

Stop the rotor from its rotation by hand and notice the height position of the rod magnets in the tubes.
When the rotor is stationary I think the rod magnets are also at a rest position, very likely are levitating, right? 
This levitation would come from the resulting force the attract and repel forces establish as a result. 
At least, this is how I think, I may be wrong.

It also would be a good piece of info how the rod magnets behave i.e. whether they change their height 
with respect to the top platform as you slowly start rotating the rotor by your hand from a standstill position 
and cover a full rotational circle, all this by your hand. 

I believe if you safely close the top openings of the plastic tubes by a cap, then the centrifugal forces could not cause
the rod magnets fly out, should the rotor RPM go unusually high when using two rod magnets in a tube. 
And you could use two pieces of wood sticks in your hands to be able to brake the rotor by them,
thus reducing RPM even to a standstill. 

Thanks for doing this test if you agree.

Gyula
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Magwood on April 12, 2020, 03:26:35 PM
Hi guys, I have been following this topic online for years, facinating stuff. This looks promising magnetman, well done. I'd love to have time to play around more with this one day. Will get some things together. I have a small workshop and cnc router so will make some parts. I was wondering if the rods could be rotating? Picture two donuts squashed under weight as they are stacked together. The gravity is constantly pushing the flux lines up rolling into the centre of the donuts. Toroidal flux lines. So the rod is like a surfer on an endless wave. Rolling over the flux line surface endlessly trying to fall into the centre and the 45 degree causes sideways drag? I don't know, just thinking out loud. Maybe it has something to do with Poloidal–toroidal decomposition?
https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Poloidal%E2%80%93toroidal_decomposition
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 12, 2020, 05:31:12 PM
@Tom,

Your description of the motor's power is really mind blowing! You realize that you are unleashing a Tsunami high on the Richter scale with your disclosure? A pivotal event in history.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 14, 2020, 12:05:10 AM
The single rod magnet inside the plastic tube is very powerful when directed downwards into the 45 degree frame work.  I am going to try another idea I had to make the setup speed less.
Instead of using a single rod magnet. I am going to use a string of  9 mm “””MAGNETIC “”” hematite beads instead. They fit inside the tubes.
I can place them into the tubes one by one until desirable motor speed is desired.
Need to purchase them now.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Magwood on April 14, 2020, 11:58:05 AM
Can I ask where you buy your supplies? I'm buying some 100mm ring magnets to start with.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 14, 2020, 06:40:11 PM
I buy a lot of my items from EBay. Stay away from China sellers now as you might have to wait a long time for a shipment to a arrive. Then you have to ask yourself is the shipment coated with the virus?
Look for the 45 degree aluminum angles on EBay.  Same for the 190 mm ring magnet and rod magnets
You can buy the Gorilla epoxy cheaper than buying it locally.  McMaster Carr has the polycarbonate tubes.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 14, 2020, 06:40:22 PM

@Tom,

Your schematic is fine, but you uploaded a masked video. Can you supply us with an undoctored version of it working?
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 14, 2020, 07:34:42 PM
I plan within two weeks to show that video probably on the U Tube
On a table with transparent top or cement floor so no one can say there is something under it causing it to spin. And a side cover to show there is no compressed air stream blowing it around.
Also I plan to slow the speed down so one can see a definite rotation without the blurred image.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: skywatcher on April 14, 2020, 08:45:02 PM
I am trying to understand what causes the rotation for the top ring magnet versus the fixed bottom ring magnet.

I understand the repel force between the block magnet and the rod magnet and also the strong attract force between
the top ring magnet and the rod magnet.  But all these magnets are placed onto the common platform which is supposed
to rotate together with the top ring magnet, right? 

You are right. The rod magnet is pulled downwards, and will remain there. I also can see no reason why it should move after reaching its end position, and much less i can see any reason why the whole rotor should rotate. There will be no movement at all. It's the same wrong reasoning as one year ago in the setup with the bar magnets inside the rotating drum. This time it's even more obvious that it can not work.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: onepower on April 14, 2020, 09:30:37 PM
skywatcher
Quote
You are right. The rod magnet is pulled downwards, and will remain there. I also can see no reason why it should move after reaching its end position, and much less i can see any reason why the whole rotor should rotate. There will be no movement at all. It's the same wrong reasoning as one year ago in the setup with the bar magnets inside the rotating drum. This time it's even more obvious that it can not work.

Early on I worked with magnetic systems such as the Wesley Gary device which was a good setup to get started on in my opinion. Over the years, as I progressed with my research I started seeing weird stuff going on and the reason why was seldom apparent. The problem is many times we see what we want to see versus what is present and occurring right in front of us.

For example we have a couple large but weak magnets which were all familiar with. Then under certain circumstances they start acting differently in certain setups and geometries for reasons we cannot understand. The problem here is that the magnet is polarized as a magnet but it can also be a conductor. Thus induced eddy currents from external fields can produce secondary magnetic fields within the magnet having almost any field orientation. It could oppose, it could assist or it could turn and break out entering other nearby magnetic materials. I have also measured field changes much faster than expected inducing currents as Wesley Gary claimed.

You see it can be something as simple as this yet if were not looking at it objectively with an open mind for what it is we could miss it. Is it a magnet or is it a conductor?... it can be both. This is also the most probable reason the inventors say only certain magnets having specific properties and geometries will work. The name Hans Coler also comes to mind where he physically wrapped his magnets with copper wire. Understand, these inventors did not generalize, they were very specific and meticulous in there work... details matter.

Regards
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: skywatcher on April 14, 2020, 09:40:43 PM
skywatcher
Early on I worked with magnetic systems such as the Wesley Gary device which was a good setup to get started on in my opinion. Over the years, as I progressed with my research I started seeing weird stuff going on and the reason why was seldom apparent. The problem is many times we see what we want to see versus what is present and occurring right in front of us.

For example we have a couple large but weak magnets which were all familiar with. Then under certain circumstances they start acting differently in certain setups and geometries for reasons we cannot understand. The problem here is that the magnet is polarized as a magnet but it can also be a conductor. Thus induced eddy currents from external fields can produce secondary magnetic fields within the magnet having almost any field orientation. It could oppose, it could assist or it could turn and break out entering other nearby magnetic materials. I have also measured field changes much faster than expected inducing currents as Wesley Gary claimed.

You see it can be something as simple as this yet if were not looking at it objectively with an open mind for what it is we could miss it. Is it a magnet or is it a conductor?... it can be both. This is also the most probable reason the inventors say only certain magnets having specific properties and geometries will work. The name Hans Coler also comes to mind where he physically wrapped his magnets with copper wire. Understand, these inventors did not generalize, they were very specific and meticulous in there work... details matter.

Regards

This might be the case in more complex (and dynamic) setups with active components. But this setup is completely passive. You are putting the magnets in place, nothing moves. Then you remove your hands from the setup, and what will happen ?  Will it start moving or rotating ?  I would say no. I can see no forces which would result in any movement whatsoever. To start any movement there should be some imbalance, and to continue the movement forever this imbalance would be required to persist forever. I don't see anything like this here.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on April 15, 2020, 12:07:21 AM
I plan within two weeks to show that video probably on the U Tube
On a table with transparent top or cement floor so no one can say there is something under it causing it to spin. And a side cover to show there is no compressed air stream blowing it around.
Also I plan to slow the speed down so one can see a definite rotation without the blurred image.


That sound good Tom,  and may I ask you to slow down the rotor by your hand in that video and then let it accelerate again to its final speed?

One more thing:  have you tried to change the 45 degree angle of the plastic tube to have a higher or lower tilting angle?  Very likely it would also influence rotor RPM.  What do you think? 

Thanks, 
Gyula
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 15, 2020, 12:15:15 AM
I get a 1/2 turn spring recoil with two 45 degree ceramics and discs; Crude quick and dirty job. This kick reminds me of the spring action in my Kundel replication. There is definitely a very strong return to position force at work on the upper ring that responds to turning it!

I am puzzled by this point in place attraction (Cog Spot) over the bottom ring?
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 15, 2020, 05:16:32 AM


That sound good Tom,  and may I ask you to slow down the rotor by your hand in that video and then let it accelerate again to its final speed?

One more thing:  have you tried to change the 45 degree angle of the plastic tube to have a higher or lower tilting angle?  Very likely it would also influence rotor RPM.  What do you think? 

Thanks, 
Gyula


I brought the rod magnet onto the top side of the 45degree neo block in repel with a lot greater response.
Now the 45 degree block and angle go counterclockwise.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Magwood on April 15, 2020, 07:17:42 AM
Thanks Magnetman,
I am going to try with 145mm as that seems to be the largest I can find on this site.
https://magnet.com.au/ferrite-ring-magnet-145mm-x-75mm-x-20mm.html

I will see if they have the other magnets I need as well, or close to.

Unless you can see any problems with changing the sizes slightly?
Do you think it needs to be aluminium, for the material used on the angles? Perhaps this is creating some sort of shield off balance and it needs to be aluminium to work?
I'm wondering if it will work with wood.  Can't wait to start diving in. I know a lot of people say this can never work but I have always believed there must be some way!
Eddy currents created from the first movement is probably what starts it, I doubt it would accelerate by itself from a stalled start but I could be wrong.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Thaelin on April 15, 2020, 06:27:01 PM
What would keep a builder from locking the top ring to an overhead gantry and allowing the lower ring to spin? This would bypass any imbalances in the setup. I have sourced a set of 5.3 inch rings and 1X2X.5  n45 neos. This is really a simple thing to knock out so decided to do it. I have 5 weeks off at the moment so why not. I will be setting the inside of whichever ring is to move with 3D printed pair that will have skate bearings in both sides. Thanks Magg for sharing as I need things to keep busy with. Love to play with magnets anyhow.


thay

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 15, 2020, 07:23:54 PM
What would keep a builder from locking the top ring to an overhead gantry and allowing the lower ring to spin? This would bypass any imbalances in the setup. I have sourced a set of 5.3 inch rings and 1X2X.5  n45 neos. This is really a simple thing to knock out so decided to do it. I have 5 weeks off at the moment so why not. I will be setting the inside of whichever ring is to move with 3D printed pair that will have skate bearings in both sides. Thanks Magg for sharing as I need things to keep busy with. Love to play with magnets anyhow.


thay


Upload some photos please.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Thaelin on April 15, 2020, 10:22:25 PM
@syncro
    That will have to hold until the mags get here. Just ordered them. I will be setting up a jig that will be able to allow me to do both. I am in the run to print up the mounting plates for the ring mags now. Going to use skate bearings on both setups so to aid in the turning on the shaft. In the end, if this goes, I will make the shaft rotate with the movable ring to be able to draw out movement. Not sure that this will have much torque tho. Will just have to wait and see.
    For what it cost to set this up, well worth the time and cash to play with. No loss on the rings as in the end I have another use for them anyhow.


thay

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 15, 2020, 10:39:42 PM
@syncro
    That will have to hold until the mags get here. Just ordered them. I will be setting up a jig that will be able to allow me to do both. I am in the run to print up the mounting plates for the ring mags now. Going to use skate bearings on both setups so to aid in the turning on the shaft. In the end, if this goes, I will make the shaft rotate with the movable ring to be able to draw out movement. Not sure that this will have much torque tho. Will just have to wait and see.
    For what it cost to set this up, well worth the time and cash to play with. No loss on the rings as in the end I have another use for them anyhow.


thay


@Thay,


One good 3rd party replication is all it will take to put this motor on prime time news!
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 16, 2020, 01:07:34 AM
This is the latest revision.
Cancel the rod magnet feeding into the center part of the 45 degree angle.
Instead place the rod magnets North Pole again the North Pole of the center block magnet.
Watch what happens. The 45 degree framework will move counterclockwise.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Airstriker on April 16, 2020, 02:08:47 AM
@syncro
    That will have to hold until the mags get here. Just ordered them. I will be setting up a jig that will be able to allow me to do both. I am in the run to print up the mounting plates for the ring mags now. Going to use skate bearings on both setups so to aid in the turning on the shaft. In the end, if this goes, I will make the shaft rotate with the movable ring to be able to draw out movement. Not sure that this will have much torque tho. Will just have to wait and see.
    For what it cost to set this up, well worth the time and cash to play with. No loss on the rings as in the end I have another use for them anyhow.


thay
skate bearings is no go. You have to use non-magnetic materials, like brass for example. My main problem at the moment is to find brass/plastic ball bearings - if not successfull will use the non-ball bearings - brass/plastic ones. And last problem - the shaft - it also needs to be non magnetic - probably will also use brass.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Airstriker on April 16, 2020, 02:12:06 AM
This is the latest revision.
Cancel the rod magnet feeding into the center part of the 45 degree angle.
Instead place the rod magnets North Pole again the North Pole of the center block magnet.
Watch what happens. The 45 degree framework will move counterclockwise.


If this setup also works, why not use a 3 ring magnets setup? The third one on top (with N pole pointing down) also being able to freely move up and down, just like the middle one. This way you get rid of the complicated rods setup.


And then... it would actually look like this:
http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20090152970.pdf (http://www.freepatentsonline.com/20090152970.pdf)


Check out figure 2.


@Tom Have you already checked if the second revision of your design indeed works the same/better than the first one?
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 16, 2020, 08:22:50 AM
@Airstriker,

Nice find! Here's the schematic: This must work to have merited a United States Patent! What's puzzling is; Why don't we see millions of these contraptions spinning around in display windows?  Why has it taken 11 years for anyone to see this kind of perpetual motor in action? We can call this the "Lee Fan" after the Korean inventor. I think it's fair to view magnetman12003's motor as a modified "Lee Fan".

A quote from me; comment #49: "These bearings would permit a horizontal back to back spinner to be possible".  A two sided fan compressed by two rings is best. Increasing the pressure must increase the acceleration. I designed a frictionless Halbach compression bearing for position #27 in the schematic: Lee's version is below and a ceramic at the bottom. Ceramic compression bearings are superior. It's okay to build models at home but any commercial use would owe royalties to the inventor!
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 16, 2020, 11:00:40 AM
Is magnetman12003 spinning just the CD alone, with the 45 degree magnets mounted on it, over the surface of the top ring? A "Fox Lee Fan"?
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Magwood on April 16, 2020, 11:01:48 AM
Yes I wondered the same thing when I saw that, why aren't they out there? There's probably a few variations in that design, reminds me of a similar design I saw way back in Tech school, I think I was arguing with a friend of mine saying it would never work.  If I do ever get one working I'll send him a video and apologise!  :)  I also saw one with a metal ball rolling inside a ring with tracks to keep it on course a magnet constantly making it try to roll up hill causes the ring to turn, even if the ball slides a little it still seems to work.  But yet we don't see them out there.  Perhaps as we all get closer to making our own the men in black will come and get us?  Oh well, life was getting boring, bring on the swat team!  Or perhaps they can just get me through my 5G router these days.  If you never hear from me again you will know why. We all need to keep in contact! :)
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Airstriker on April 16, 2020, 11:15:21 AM
@Airstriker,

Nice find! Here's the schematic: This must work to have merited a United States Patent! What's puzzling is; Why don't we see millions of these contraptions spinning around in display windows?  Why has it taken 11 years for anyone to see this kind of perpetual motor in action? We can call this the "Lee Fan" after the Korean inventor. I think it's fair to view magnetman12003's motor as a modified "Lee Fan".

A quote from me; comment #49: "These bearings would permit a horizontal back to back spinner to be possible".  A two sided fan compressed by two rings is best. Increasing the pressure must increase the acceleration. I designed a frictionless Halbach compression bearing for position #27 in the schematic: Lee's version is below and a ceramic at the bottom. Ceramic compression bearings are superior. It's okay to build models at home but any commercial use would owe royalties to the inventor!


Unfortunately you totally didn't get my point:
1. All I'm trying to do is understand why it works, or doesn't work. I'm not taking any credit from Tom just by showing something simillar.
2. Granted patent doesn't mean that it works. It only confirms that the design is unique to other patents and technically well described/written. You also don't patent an idea but a specific design.
3. IMHO that particular patented device doesn't work. I also think it has already been proven on that forum. And actually, if it would have worked, Tom's first video, with just the bottom ring magnet and plastic top ring having mounted the angled magnets, would have shown an already working device. As far as I understood it didn't? @Tom your clarification would be needed here.
4. The patented device is totally static in the vertical plane - there is no other movement but the rotation. The compression is statically adjusted. The fan or ring cannot move up and down. In Tom's device there is free movement in the vertical plane - the ring magnet with the angles can move up and down, and if his device really works this is where I would be searching for the reasons why it works. If that's really the case, the patented device has nothing to do with Tom's design and cannot be the subject of any claims.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 16, 2020, 12:49:17 PM
I wonder how a tilted ceramic block would act set between the rings like this;
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Airstriker on April 16, 2020, 01:42:54 PM
I wonder how a tilted ceramic block would act set between the rings like this;
Exactly. With two variants:
- vertically static upper and middle parts- like in the patent
- upper and middle part being able to move up and down freely - like in Tom's concept (in a way).
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: lota on April 16, 2020, 07:17:27 PM
Hello
 here's my setup. Where is the position of the bar magnet?
Greeting
Lota
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: lota on April 16, 2020, 07:19:44 PM
This one.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Airstriker on April 16, 2020, 11:44:45 PM
Hello
 here's my setup. Where is the position of the bar magnet?
Greeting
Lota
But the angled supports should be exactly above the the ring magnets. Your setup is completely nonsensical ;] You just made a floating table ;] Or is it still missing the ring magnets? Dunno what the black rings are.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 17, 2020, 12:28:36 AM
Maybe a 3d printer could make the magnet holders in the middle? This twin array should float and maybe spin.


Take note that the magnets are covered by the ring circumference.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 17, 2020, 02:25:18 AM
This one.
The rod magnet polarity must be the same as the center point of the block magnet mounted onto the 45 degree frame.. the rod magnet polarity must pint directly at this center.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: lota on April 17, 2020, 10:23:29 AM
Hi,
can we take it so? Magnet Diameter 156mm
lota
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 17, 2020, 12:37:32 PM
here's a side view;
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Airstriker on April 17, 2020, 03:31:37 PM
Hi,
can we take it so? Magnet Diameter 156mm
lota


I will use: 156x80x20 mm. Cannot find bigger ones locally.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: kolbacict on April 17, 2020, 06:04:02 PM
That is, in this model, magnets move in three planes. Have you noticed this?
And not like a two-dimensional classic track V-gate.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: isofield4 on April 18, 2020, 08:37:33 PM
 ---
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: ayeaye on April 19, 2020, 12:48:05 PM
Magnetman, great work. It will have immense importance if replicated. Until then i assume that you did succeed and got some results.

I remember talking with you many years ago about magnet motors, maybe what we talked then helped you to find your solution.

The rest i can say is just occam's razor, i don't exclude any unknown effects. That magnet under 45 degrees can provide overunity, yes, my experiment shows that. Either the magnetic field of the ring magnet is not even, then the overunity has the same reason as in my experiment (see the thread below this one, it's also replicated). But also, if the field is even, when the magnet is at 45 degrees, the force in one direction is greater than the force in the opposite direction, this is also measured in my experiment.

Why the rod magnets have to be in the plastic tubes, i don't know. In principle there could be overunity even with fastened rod magnets and one ring magnet. But it is difficult to have a gain of energy that can overcome friction, so everything there may depend on small things. Like these moving rod magnets go more easily over the possible "bumps" in the magnetic field. But again i don't know, i said it's just occam's razor.

But one thing is certain, doing research together helps. What one may find may help others sometimes even in unknown ways.

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: GT899 on April 19, 2020, 04:51:11 PM
First off I just want to say thank you so much to magnetman12003 for sharing this wonderful design! I thought I would have a go at this with what I already had available and so I have not used the magnet sizes that you have used.

So far I have not achieved any continuous rotation so perhaps the sizing is very important to your design but there also seems to be a sticky point to my build which possibly might mean weak or uneven magnet rings?
All pieces printed for the magnet holders were at 45 degrees.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF1ltIug60w

I have a lot of time on my hands atm so will continue to experiment with the available magnets I already have.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: lota on April 19, 2020, 08:16:50 PM
Hello
in the video the second ring magnet is not visible. The tubes with bar magnets should also have a large distance.
Magnets have arrived. 156 mm diameter knife. 3D printer is already printing.
Here's a description.
Greeting
Lota
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Airstriker on April 19, 2020, 08:57:38 PM
First off I just want to say thank you so much to magnetman12003 for sharing this wonderful design! I thought I would have a go at this with what I already had available and so I have not used the magnet sizes that you have used.

So far I have not achieved any continuous rotation so perhaps the sizing is very important to your design but there also seems to be a sticky point to my build which possibly might mean weak or uneven magnet rings?
All pieces printed for the magnet holders were at 45 degrees.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF1ltIug60w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF1ltIug60w)

I have a lot of time on my hands atm so will continue to experiment with the available magnets I already have.


Your upper ring magnet is stationary - it should not be.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 19, 2020, 09:04:42 PM
First off I just want to say thank you so much to magnetman12003 for sharing this wonderful design! I thought I would have a go at this with what I already had available and so I have not used the magnet sizes that you have used.

So far I have not achieved any continuous rotation so perhaps the sizing is very important to your design but there also seems to be a sticky point to my build which possibly might mean weak or uneven magnet rings?
All pieces printed for the magnet holders were at 45 degrees.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF1ltIug60w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF1ltIug60w)




I have a lot of time on my hands atm so will continue to experiment with the available magnets I already have.






Try placing the rod magnets inside the tubes.  The ends of the rod magnets should face the same polarity as the block magnets. To be certain the rod magnets are close to the block magnets a weight on the opposite end of the rod magnet should be added.  The rod magnets and weight themself’s should float free and not be fixed in any way to the supporting tubes!!!
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Low-Q on April 19, 2020, 11:07:25 PM
Here is a video of the motor turning folks.
Shown a little out of focus to hide important parts.
More to come later on  in focus.
In that few seconds movie, I can clearly see that the rotor is slowing down.
I can also tell you that  skewed magnets on a plate cannot direct force upon a stationary flat magnet to make rotary motion.


So my 5 cents on this one - FAKE.


Sorry.


Vidar
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: ayeaye on April 20, 2020, 07:14:13 AM
In that few seconds movie, I can clearly see that the rotor is slowing down.

Please.

Yes i see it too. I don't think it showed continuous rotation, and it could have been given initial speed. All i think it shows is what he considers that he got a gain of energy, not necessarily greater than friction. He never claimed anything more either. And i assume that's true, i know him and know that he is a honest researcher.

Who replicates, btw, this thing looks like delicate. The strength and the weight of the rod magnets, etc, may all matter in minor detail. So no wonder when you cannot replicate. This is the problem of wanting to get all that at once. Why don't you replicate my experiment, much simpler, where you did succeed for certain. But yes, it's already replicated.

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: lota on April 20, 2020, 11:38:43 AM
Hello,new setup. Not spinning. Even with two ring magnets.
lota
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Thaelin on April 20, 2020, 09:22:54 PM
  Don't kill me for this but so far I have not seen one build that is to the specs given.  Seems to be a plague here abouts. I am now building mine. But it will be to the drawing that was given with the added revs from Mags


thay

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Low-Q on April 21, 2020, 07:37:07 AM
Please.

Yes i see it too. I don't think it showed continuous rotation, and it could have been given initial speed. All i think it shows is what he considers that he got a gain of energy, not necessarily greater than friction. He never claimed anything more either. And i assume that's true, i know him and know that he is a honest researcher.

Who replicates, btw, this thing looks like delicate. The strength and the weight of the rod magnets, etc, may all matter in minor detail. So no wonder when you cannot replicate. This is the problem of wanting to get all that at once. Why don't you replicate my experiment, much simpler, where you did succeed for certain. But yes, it's already replicated.


Ok. Sorry for being so harsh.
I can tell that a setup like this does not have gain.


One simple reason for that, and that is a missing field gradient in the direction of motion. That means the rotor magnets isn't pushed or pulled neither backwards or forwards.


So the gain in this setup, even without friction, is exactly zero, and therefor I called it fake.


Vidar.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: lota on April 21, 2020, 07:39:04 AM

Hello,
well then good luck and show us the build-up.
Greeting
Lota

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: ayeaye on April 21, 2020, 07:48:32 AM
One simple reason for that, and that is a missing field gradient in the direction of motion. That means the rotor magnets isn't pushed or pulled neither backwards or forwards.

Oh yes? Then why are there different forces at the both sides then?

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: lota on April 23, 2020, 02:47:50 PM



[font=]Hello
[/color][/font][/size]
magnetman12003 (https://overunity.com/profile/magnetman12003.1355/)[/color][/font][/size]
[/u][font=&amp]
[/color][/font][/size]
, [/color][/font]
[font=]what does it look like, have you already made a video?? [/font]
[font=]Greeting[/font]
[font=]Lota[/font]
[font=]
[/font]
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Magwood on April 24, 2020, 03:55:25 AM
Thanks, what a waste of everyones time. I should have known. On a side note I'm now asked to help in designing a new vertical shaft wind generator using ferro fluid and funded by the Australian Government. What a strange coincidence! They are watching you. Testing your every online decisions using AI and you don't even know. Those who scam and mislead others in this journey will also be collected in this data. Don't underestimate how your online activity now will effect your future. Digital karma for the human concience.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: ayeaye on April 25, 2020, 09:05:35 AM
Yes what a thinking, just thinking people, also shouldn't exist.

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Magwood on April 26, 2020, 07:52:40 AM
Oh well, I have my magnets here so I will give it a try for myself and see for a bit of fun. Just have to get the time to put something together then I'll post some pics if I have any success. I don't like wasting time and money on things based on a very short video that seemed to be slowing down in rotation. But if it's Ferko? then maybe he's on to something, I've seen some of his other work over the years so he's not a newbie that's for sure. Fingers crossed. Stay safe everyone!
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: lota on April 26, 2020, 09:26:33 AM
Hello
did you get 156mm or larger?
Greeting
Lota
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Magwood on April 26, 2020, 09:43:55 AM
145mm was the largest I could get. Plus a whole lot of other block magnets and small cylinder neos.  Also a small neo sphere just to play around with.
I'm going to make a wind generator to run some tests and hook it up to my solar/inverter/batt setup for those windy days when there's not much sun. Will make a few small turbines instead of a large one that takes up too much room.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: ayeaye on April 26, 2020, 10:06:43 AM
Oh well, I have my magnets here so I will give it a try for myself and see for a bit of fun.

Maybe you would replicate my experiment as well. If you have scales and a plastic or an aluminum ruler. Much much simpler and then you at least get some results.

I talked with Magnetman a long time ago, and maybe the idea to put magnet under 45 degrees, came from me. I certainly was not the first who thought to put magnet under 45 degrees, it is not difficult to get that idea. But i explained why it works.

I have thought that it may also work with a ring magnet, i even thought about making the 45 degrees magnet to move, though not the way Magnetman did it. I don't know about having two discs, maybe there is some reason.

I would recommend to measure forces. Doing it in that way, just copy, doesn't work, reject it, is not really a reasonable approach, and not the right way to do research. I know Magnetman, he was one of these who talked about the possibilities of making a permanent magnet motor and the theory, i was one too, and i think that he found some way to increase propulsion. What exactly did we talk then, i don't exactly remember.

Whether it finally slows down or not, doesn't so much matter, may even only be a matter of better bearings. I think it is important to measure how much energy gain there is, in that and in similar setups.

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: lota on April 26, 2020, 07:41:04 PM

Hello
I have some magnets. Also ring magnets 156mm Also Neos in different sizes. I don't think you can say it's not possible. You may need 200mm magnets. I will continue to test.  Please set pictures and test. Even if it doesn't work.
Greeting
Lota
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: ayeaye on April 27, 2020, 10:18:04 AM
Why two ring magnets, i don't know, i can only guess. Depending on the material of the ring magnet, the field of the 45 degrees magnets can go through the ring magnet, to the lower ring magnet, so all is like the ring magnet were not in between. Why in that way, i don't know, maybe just so that the ring magnet with the 45 degrees magnets on it kind of floats in the air, and there is less friction. Maybe something different from that happens, again i don't know, i can only guess.

Please, the thread about my experiment is this, see that in the end  https://overunity.com/18363/getting-energy-from-asymmetry-of-the-magnetic-field-experiment/ . I would consider that experiment an elementary thing to do, when researching overunity in permanent magnets. Like ywhen ou study electricity, you do that Faraday experiment with a compass needle, kind of, not much, but very important.

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 30, 2020, 12:33:39 AM
Hi All,
This is my latest drawing incorporating major changes and much easier to build.
I have not tested it yet. It should work out as the tube with the rod magnets inside it floats freely by itself inside the 2 inch pipe section and will push the 45 degree aluminum angle counter clockwise.
You will have to observe polarity!!  North Pole is red. South Pole is blue.
You will have to make four of the 45degree angle setups and place them in a circular fashion as shown.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: ayeaye on April 30, 2020, 05:15:38 AM
Magnetman, this is pretty complicated and will likely not be replicated. Furthermore if it works, then likely only with a certain magnets, every detail in that setup matters.

Your upper ring magnet floats freely on the lower one?

If so, interesting is, if we made these ring magnets a slightly cone shape, were it then a completely friction free bearing?

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 30, 2020, 02:09:07 PM
@Magnetman,


Please upload the latest test video.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 30, 2020, 10:48:47 PM
Magnetman, this is pretty complicated and will likely not be replicated. Furthermore if it works, then likely only with a certain magnets, every detail in that setup matters.

Your upper ring magnet floats freely on the lower one?

If so, interesting is, if we made these ring magnets a slightly cone shape, were it then a completely friction free bearing?


You can use a 12 oz tall inexpensive plastic drinking glass for the 2 inch pvc pipe and cement it onto the plastic block under it.   Yes the large ring magnets repell each other and very little friction is the result in the top magnet spin on a simple bearing.  It free floats.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 30, 2020, 11:13:01 PM
Here is a video of my setup turning without the pvc pipe. I used the plastic tube with two rod
Magnets inside it. I am waiting for some tall plastic drinking glasses to put the rod magnet tubes inside.
As you can see it turns by almost touching the rod magnet tube anywhere near the block the drinking glass will be cemented to.    Polarity as shown on my diagram.      Tom
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on April 30, 2020, 11:30:11 PM
Here is a video of my setup turning without the pvc pipe. I used the plastic tube with two rod
Magnets inside it. I am waiting for some tall plastic drinking glasses to put the rod magnet tubes inside.
As you can see it turns by almost touching the rod magnet tube anywhere near the block the drinking glass will be cemented to.    Polarity as shown on my diagram.      Tom


Just sticking disc magnets to the side rim of the upper disc would generate the same repulsion!
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on April 30, 2020, 11:44:09 PM

Just sticking disc magnets to the side rim of the upper disc would generate the same repulsion!


I used two large ring magnets and a total of 8 rod magnets will be used.  What’s with the “”disc” magnets?  Show how?
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on May 01, 2020, 12:28:12 AM
Like this; I can wave a magnet stack and get propulsion with this spoke arrangement.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on May 01, 2020, 02:13:56 PM
The magnet spokes are programmed ceramics. This top ring spins frictionless with no cogging.

The poles once aligned can be powered from the under side at 45 degrees by a pulse coil.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on May 01, 2020, 02:42:50 PM
The pulse coil would need to look like this at 45 degrees; A bit awkward, but the position delivers a "Quick and Dirty" high speed frictionless bearing. All it needs is a rubber band to press the magnet spokes in place.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Magwood on May 02, 2020, 02:23:51 PM
Great work guys. I started my setup tonight and it spins very nice so far. I must admit I spent too long out in the freezing shed tonight playing with magnets. Good excuse to my cnc and disc sander circle jig.  :) If it doesn't work out I'll use parts for a wind generator.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Airstriker on May 03, 2020, 07:09:28 PM
You should use only non-magnetic materials for shaft, bearings and angles. Using ordinary ball bearings won't work - the balls will get magnetised and introduce pretty much "friction". Ferromagnetic shaft/bearings/angles It will also route the magnetic field where you don't want it to go.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Magwood on May 03, 2020, 09:13:03 PM
Thanks yes I wondered about that. I'll change it, that's the only metal, I'm using a 6mn dowel as the shaft. Will make a hardwood bearing instead and lubricate with camila oil. Or do you think brass would be ok?
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on May 03, 2020, 10:41:25 PM
Thanks yes I wondered about that. I'll change it, that's the only metal, I'm using a 6mn dowel as the shaft. Will make a hardwood bearing instead and lubricate with camila oil. Or do you think brass would be ok?


Brass is O.K. Ceramic bearings are hard to beat!
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on May 08, 2020, 09:58:33 PM
Here is my latest drawing of what I found that works.  I already experimented and it does. Making it after some nice tumblers arrive.
The steel rod with enough weight on it will push the 45 magnetic block in in my case counter clockwise.  Magnet attracts steel rod at angle. Can go clockwise also by reversing the image as shown. All this is free open source information by me.    All you need now is two huge ring magnets Or one huge ring magnet with a lazy Susan turntable under it.  As well as 4 powerful block magnets to make it   No other magnets required.
Other parts needed can be purchased through EBay or McMaster Carr. 
Tom
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Thaelin on May 09, 2020, 02:11:15 AM
Tried twice to post a couple of pics but all I get is a blank screen after it says it up loaded them. Checking from separate screen shows it did not upload or even post. Still printing the mag tubes to mount at 90 degrees. Another 7 hours for that. Think I will be short fillament so have to get that to end it.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: conradelektro on May 09, 2020, 10:57:17 AM
So far I have not achieved any continuous rotation so perhaps the sizing is very important to your design but there also seems to be a sticky point to my build which possibly might mean weak or uneven magnet rings?
All pieces printed for the magnet holders were at 45 degrees.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF1ltIug60w (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DF1ltIug60w)

Nice build!

I suspect that magnetman12003 has solved the friction problem (and the sticky point hurdle) a bit better, therefore his contraption will turn a bit longer after an initial push.

Nevertheless, an interesting idea.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on May 09, 2020, 03:39:37 PM
@magnetman12003,


Can you show us a video of your rotor hopping the sticky point?
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on May 09, 2020, 10:20:13 PM
@magnetman12003,


Can you show us a video of your rotor hopping the sticky point?


There is “”NO””sticky point in my setup. The “”free””rod and weight attached to it just keeps the 45 degree setup block magnet pushing counter clock wise.  I am waiting on 4 very nice plastic tumblers to use in making this. I will make a video of  the motor working then. The correct angle and weight of the threaded steel rod attracted to the 45 degree block magnet determines what push it has on the magnet.
Note this on the diagram I posted. All can go clockwise if the diagram is reversed.
Tom
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on May 10, 2020, 11:42:39 PM
This goes inside the tumbler by itself to make the motor spin.  What is shown is a 6 inch carriage bolt with a #16 and #4 cannonball lead sinker mounted on it. 3/8 th inch Holes drilled through sinkers so bolt can slide through.  Please note: This bolt must actually touch the 45 degree set magnet to work.  Must notch out the bottom of the tumbler to allow the contact. The tumbler provides a set angle for the bolt. Check this looking at my diagram on page 10.
The heavy weight (GRAVITY)of the bolt pushes down at a angle on the 45 degree mounted magnet.
That in turn will get the base heavy ring magnet to spin either clockwise or counter clock wise depending on how you make the setup.

Tom
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: conradelektro on May 11, 2020, 06:35:14 PM
This goes inside the tumbler by itself to make the motor spin.  What is shown is a 6 inch carriage bolt with a #16 and #4 cannonball lead sinker mounted on it. 3/8 th inch Holes drilled through sinkers so bolt can slide through.  Please note: This bolt must actually touch the 45 degree set magnet to work.  Must notch out the bottom of the tumbler to allow the contact. The tumbler provides a set angle for the bolt. Check this looking at my diagram on page 10.
The heavy weight (GRAVITY)of the bolt pushes down at a angle on the 45 degree mounted magnet.
That in turn will get the base heavy ring magnet to spin either clockwise or counter clock wise depending on how you make the setup.

Tom

Do I understand this in the right way: There will be four tumblers (each with a bolt inside) and the tumblers are fixed to the turning magnet ring? (The tumblers are fixed to the 45 degree mounted magnets?)

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on May 11, 2020, 07:17:09 PM

"Quick and Dirty" version: Egotronics says the Wobble makes it spin around? It looks like egotronics may really be onto something! Easy to see how magnetman12003's setup would generate a Wobble too. A breeze would be a help.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJq8JNOmeGY (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rJq8JNOmeGY)
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on May 11, 2020, 07:25:17 PM
Do I understand this in the right way: There will be four tumblers (each with a bolt inside) and the tumblers are fixed to the turning magnet ring? (The tumblers are fixed to the 45 degree mounted magnets?)

Greetings, Conrad
It’s going to look like this.  I have shown a real glass tumbler there for illustration purposes
This is one setup for clarity. Need 4. Notice the phenolic block riser under the tumbler that sets on it.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on May 11, 2020, 10:05:59 PM
This goes inside the tumbler by itself to make the motor spin.  What is shown is a 6 inch carriage bolt with a #16 and #4 cannonball lead sinker mounted on it. 3/8 th inch Holes drilled through sinkers so bolt can slide through.  Please note: This bolt must actually touch the 45 degree set magnet to work.  Must notch out the bottom of the tumbler to allow the contact. The tumbler provides a set angle for the bolt. Check this looking at my diagram on page 10.
The heavy weight (GRAVITY)of the bolt pushes down at a angle on the 45 degree mounted magnet.
That in turn will get the base heavy ring magnet to spin either clockwise or counter clock wise depending on how you make the setup. I just found out the heavy weight on the threaded rod should be the closest to the magnet block and the lesser weight be next further away.

Tom
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: conradelektro on May 12, 2020, 10:59:13 AM
This goes inside the tumbler by itself to make the motor spin.  What is shown is a 6 inch carriage bolt with a #16 and #4 cannonball lead sinker mounted on it. 3/8 th inch Holes drilled through sinkers so bolt can slide through.  Please note: This bolt must actually touch the 45 degree set magnet to work.  Must notch out the bottom of the tumbler to allow the contact. The tumbler provides a set angle for the bolt. Check this looking at my diagram on page 10.
The heavy weight (GRAVITY)of the bolt pushes down at a angle on the 45 degree mounted magnet.
That in turn will get the base heavy ring magnet to spin either clockwise or counter clock wise depending on how you make the setup. I just found out the heavy weight on the threaded rod should be the closest to the magnet block and the lesser weight be next further away.

Does the bolt inside the tumbler move in any way while the motor spins? The bolt will move in a circle like the whole setup (45° magnets, tumblers, phenolic blocks, heavy ring magnet), but does it move inside the tumbler in a small circle or back and forth radially?

I am thinking about the centrifugal force acting on the bolt inside the tumbler as the motor spins. A rhythmic movement of the bolts inside the tumblers while the motor is spinning would introduce some dynamics to cause the spinning.

I guess the rationale behind the tumblers is to give the rods some room for a small systematic movement while the motor is spinning?

Sorry for the cryptic sentences, but it is hard to express my thoughts about this permanent magnet motor without having all details. And I understand that magnetman12003 does not want to disclose all details. The world will grab the idea from him and many will use it to their advantage without giving him anything not even credit.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on May 12, 2020, 01:41:21 PM

Quote from egotronics:

"One simple rotation and the magnets unbalance and it starts to rotate"

Both contraptions use a very sloppy bearing for the rotor.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: seychelles on May 12, 2020, 01:53:52 PM
WE SHOULD REALLY LOOK AT THIS ONE. THE SECRET IS IN THE SPING ACTION OF THE WOOD SPINNER.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s18h5X2sDZU
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: conradelektro on May 12, 2020, 07:19:12 PM
WE SHOULD REALLY LOOK AT THIS ONE. THE SECRET IS IN THE SPING ACTION OF THE WOOD SPINNER.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s18h5X2sDZU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s18h5X2sDZU)

The video is from January 2017. Does anybody think he would not have developed this wonderful thing any further? If it really worked the inventor would be famous by now.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on May 12, 2020, 09:05:58 PM
Does the bolt inside the tumbler move in any way while the motor spins? The bolt will move in a circle like the whole setup (45° magnets, tumblers, phenolic blocks, heavy ring magnet), but does it move inside the tumbler in a small circle or back and forth radially?

I am thinking about the centrifugal force acting on the bolt inside the tumbler as the motor spins. A rhythmic movement of the bolts inside the tumblers while the motor is spinning would introduce some dynamics to cause the spinning.

I guess the rationale behind the tumblers is to give the rods some room for a small systematic movement while the motor is spinning?




Sorry for the cryptic sentences, but it is hard to express my thoughts about this permanent magnet motor without having all details. And I understand that magnetman12003 does not want to disclose all details. The world will grab the idea from him and many will use it to their advantage without giving him anything not even credit.

Greetings, Conrad
[/ll

The bolt itself is attracted to the 45 degree mounted block magnet.  The top of the tumbler is  the angle the bolt rests on.  I believe the bolt won’t move much while the motor spins.
You will need to experiment with the bolt weight and angle it contacts the 45 degree block magnet for best results.  From what I am seeing another 45 degree angle seems best.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: vince on May 13, 2020, 05:18:38 PM
Hi Magnetman,
I just completed a replication of your device that I believe covers all your specs pretty closely.
It has:


2 6" ring magnets
non magnetic stainless shaft
brass bushings
correct 45 degree angles
correct magnetic polarity as per your sketch
3/8" weight rods
aluminum weight rods guide tubes orriented at 45 degrees to magnets


My question to you is this.
Did you actually get this working or do you just assume it will work with this design?


Mine does NADA! not even a kick!


Please comment on what you believe is wrong with the replication.
PS have not tried any added weights to the rods.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on May 13, 2020, 06:38:00 PM
Hi Magnetman,
I just completed a replication of your device that I believe covers all your specs pretty closely.
It has:


2 6" ring magnets
non magnetic stainless shaft
brass bushings
correct 45 degree angles
correct magnetic polarity as per your sketch
3/8" weight rods
aluminum weight rods guide tubes orriented at 45 degrees to magnets


My question to you is this.
Did you actually get this working or do you just assume it will work with this design?


Mine does NADA! not even a kick!


Please comment on what you believe is wrong with the replication.
PS have not tried any added weights to the rods.


try directing air flow from an electric fan from where an off camera view angle would be and see if that's sufficient to create the illusion of self rotation. try and rotate it by electric fan.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: vince on May 13, 2020, 06:39:43 PM
might come to that!
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: kolbacict on May 13, 2020, 07:47:58 PM
why doesn’t it rotate What am I doing wrong?
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: conradelektro on May 13, 2020, 08:01:01 PM
I just completed a replication of your device that I believe covers all your specs pretty closely.

Please comment on what you believe is wrong with the replication.
PS have not tried any added weights to the rods.

1. Magnetma12003 wrote that the rods should touch the 45° magnets. Therefore he added the weights.
2. And there are the plastic tumblers which allow to adjust the angle of the rods. May be 45° is not the ideal angle, it could be 40° or 50°.

Of course, I do not know whether that helps or not. And my opinion about permanent magnet motors is better not said aloud in this forum. But I am interested in the ways people try to do the impossible. Impossible things are much more interesting than known things. Everybody can learn what is known, but trying the impossible needs determination beyond the usual.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on May 14, 2020, 04:03:54 PM
The absence of a soundtrack in magnetman12003's video may conceal the sound of a hairdryer running at high speed out of view.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: kolbacict on May 14, 2020, 04:41:47 PM
Quote
Impossible things are much more interesting than known things. Everybody can learn what is known, but trying the impossible needs determination beyond the usual.
the concept of this can only be obtained from our reality. In a dream, for example ...  :)
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: ayeaye on May 14, 2020, 05:31:18 PM
It is important to know what is possible and what is not. But what really requires smartness is to go beyond that.

When there is overunity and it is not greater than friction, then in that setup it is difficult to find out. Measure forces when moving, in one direction and in the other direction, see whether there is any difference. In case of perfect symmetry these forces should be exactly equal. If this difference is even great enough to be measurable.

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on May 14, 2020, 08:31:41 PM
1. Magnetma12003 wrote that the rods should touch the 45° magnets. Therefore he added the weights.
2. And there are the plastic tumblers which allow to adjust the angle of the rods. May be 45° is not the ideal angle, it could be 40° or 50°.

Of course, I do not know whether that helps or not. And my opinion about permanent magnet motors is better not said aloud in this forum. But I am interested in the ways people try to do the impossible. Impossible things are much more interesting than known things. Everybody can learn what is known, but trying the impossible needs determination beyond the usual.
Greetings, Conrad


Try this without using the plastic tumblers.  Take a 6 inch steel threaded bolt or rod and add some weight to it such as a group of steel washers that can be adjusted to go up or down the rod and fastened in place with nuts.   Then take the bottom of the bolt and it will attract to the 45 degree magnet you have previously mounted in your setup that freely turns with a touch.


Next you will find that the setup will spin if the bolt weight is enough and the angle you are holding the bolt at is enough.  It will continuously spin at this point.


Next put the bolt without finger touch  the same way inside a notched plastic tumbler with the lower part of the bolt in direct contact with the 45 degree magnet. The plastic tumbler should be fastened to a riser block to allow the above to happen. See photo page 11.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: conradelektro on May 15, 2020, 07:52:11 PM
Hi Magnetman,
I just completed a replication of your device that I believe covers all your specs pretty closely.

Mine does NADA! not even a kick!

Please comment on what you believe is wrong with the replication.

Magnetman has answered but I want to add something I observed in the last 25 years following attempted permanent magnet motors:

= The permanent magnet motor needs to be started by an external force. =

Some did the starting with an electric motor (e.g. a drill) which was connected at startup (and then disconnected). One had a loaded spring which was released with a hammer.

My guess is that magnetman12003 gives his motor an initial spin by hand (and I apologize if that is not the case).

So vince, try to spin it up a bit by hand and then observe how long it takes till your replication comes to a stop. Then change the rod configuration and angle and see if it takes longer to come to a rest after an initial spin up by hand.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on May 15, 2020, 08:23:24 PM
Magnetman has answered but I want to add something I observed in the last 25 years following attempted permanent magnet motors:

= The permanent magnet motor needs to be started by an external force. =

Some did the starting with an electric motor (e.g. a drill) which was connected at startup (and then disconnected). One had a loaded spring which was released with a hammer.

My guess is that magnetman12003 gives his motor an initial spin by hand (and I apologize if that is not the case).

So vince, try to spin it up a bit by hand and then observe how long it takes till your replication comes to a stop. Then change the rod configuration and angle and see if it takes longer to come to a rest after an initial spin up by hand.

Greetings, Conrad


My setup if done the way I have shown will spin by itself without doing anything else.
My biggest problem is how to stop the spin without the motor coming apart by centrifugal force.
Be very careful in constructing my particular setup and use a excellent bonding agent such as Krazy Glue Professional grade. It’s my believe the motor will go faster and faster but sooner or later it will fly apart.  I have not reached that point yet as I am still waiting for the tumblers.


You will be quite excited if you try  holding the threaded rods by your fingers with weights on them in direct contact with the 45 degree magnet and see that in fact it will travel around and around depending on where your weights are and the angle you are holding the rod at.
The key to my setup is that the gravity weight of the threaded bolt pushes downward on the 45 degree magnet at an angle which causes the setup to spin. The spin is not caused by Magnetic action.

Tom
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on May 15, 2020, 10:28:35 PM
Hi Magnetman,
I just completed a replication of your device that I believe covers all your specs pretty closely.
It has:


2 6" ring magnets
non magnetic stainless shaft
brass bushings
correct 45 degree angles
correct magnetic polarity as per your sketch
3/8" weight rods
aluminum weight rods guide tubes orriented at 45 degrees to magnets


My question to you is this.
Did you actually get this working or do you just assume it will work with this design?


Mine does NADA! not even a kick!


Please comment on what you believe is wrong with the replication.
PS have not tried any added weights to the rods.


You must have weights to the rods and also your base of 2 six inch ring magnets must allow the top ring magnet to spin freely with a finger touch. Are the rods touching the 45 degree magnet?  That must also be present.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: conradelektro on May 15, 2020, 10:52:32 PM

My biggest problem is how to stop the spin without the motor coming apart by centrifugal force.
Be very careful in constructing my particular setup and use a excellent bonding agent such as Krazy Glue Professional grade. It’s my believe the motor will go faster and faster but sooner or later it will fly apart.  I have not reached that point yet as I am still waiting for the tumblers.

Tom


This is how a permanent magnet motor should behave theoretically, but I have never seen one and it should not work, again in theory.


Whenever your motor is selfrunning you should show it to people who can do measurements and are experts enough (under a nondisclosure agreement). If it really works you will find an audience. A good idea would be a second or more motors to be sure that you can replicate it yourself. All permanent magnet motors have broken down during demonstrations leaving all questions open, and one wonders why there was never a spare one.


I do not attempt a replication because there are too many varibles concerning the magnets and the setup in general.


Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on May 16, 2020, 12:18:32 AM

This is how a permanent magnet motor should behave theoretically, but I have never seen one and it should not work, again in theory.


Whenever your motor is selfrunning you should show it to people who can do measurements and are experts enough (under a nondisclosure agreement). If it really works you will find an audience. A good idea would be a second or more motors to be sure that you can replicate it yourself. All permanent magnet motors have broken down during demonstrations leaving all questions open, and one wonders why there was never a spare one.


I do not attempt a replication because there are too many varibles concerning the magnets and the setup in general.


Greetings, Conrad
The only part of my setup that works with magnet help is the floating action of the top large ceramic ring suspended by the lower large magnetic ring.  Also and very important is the weighted threaded steel rod must touch ( Atracted to) the 45 degree mounted magnet directly at a angle.


All the rest is done by gravity pulling down the steel rod weight and angle it’s positioned at so it bears downwards on the 45 degree magnet. Then that weight now will spin the free floating top ceramic magnet.
Try using your fingers with a weighted rod at various angles directly touching your free floating setups 45 degree magnet and see this for yourself.  THE LARGE FLOATING CERAMIc MAGNET WILL SPIN at some point.
If the weight on the steel rods are not heavy enough and the angle the rod is positioned at is incorrect it won’t work.  Very important to be sure the steel rod is touching the 45 degree magnet.
Check my illustrations on pages 10 and 11.


Tom
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Magluvin on May 16, 2020, 03:09:36 AM

My setup if done the way I have shown will spin by itself without doing anything else.
My biggest problem is how to stop the spin without the motor coming apart by centrifugal force.


Tom
I had seen the one vid using the tool moving by hand to get it to spin. Is there another vid of it spinning on its own like you state here?
Thanks
Mags
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on May 16, 2020, 03:55:29 AM
I had seen the one vid using the tool moving by hand to get it to spin. Is there another vid of it spinning on its own like you state here?
Thanks
Mags
 I will post a video showing it working after I get my tumblers installed.  Right now I have been bonding everything securely so the motor does not fly apart later inside my home. I might take it outside and stand a distance away.
The thoughts of getting hit by a lead ball fastened onto a steel rod scares me. 


 Will someone who has completed the basic setup try using their fingers to hold a  threaded steel rod  or bolt with its end ON the 45 degree magnet?  Rod must be weighted down.  Then set the rod at a angle to the 45 degree block magnet.
The large ceramic magnet should spin around while you are holding the rod with weight on it at some angle.


Tom
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Magluvin on May 16, 2020, 04:20:47 AM
Unless you are guessing it will speed up to explode mode, Id just set it up by adding a bit of friction to control it. Like a non contact brake could be an Al ring suspended around the rotating magnets. It will slow it down magnetically, more and more the faster it goes, without killing off the rotation completely. Tk would call it a Magneto Kinetic Judson Damper, from the Whipmag days.  ;D   Put a diametric magnet in a dremel tool and bring a piece of al near the magnet. The dremel will slow and the al will heat up. Even a pulse motor rotor with mags, it will slow it down.
I think on these things like this these days.... If it is a very basic, open field construction, there can be only so much field force that will occur having distance from magnet poles and such. So it may not spin as fast as you suspect. Like this.... Imagine it built like a tight refined example like real electric motors are, then I would be worried about overspin and construction handling it, if it actually spins. ;) I think you will be ok.
Mags
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Magluvin on May 16, 2020, 04:24:54 AM
Dont know why but when I separate my writingssay as separate paragraphs, when I post, it is all just jammed together. :-\

Mags
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: ayeaye on May 16, 2020, 11:39:48 AM
Magnetman has answered but I want to add something I observed in the last 25 years following attempted permanent magnet motors:

= The permanent magnet motor needs to be started by an external force. =

This doesn't say much, as most if not all claimed permanent magnet motors may well be a hoax.

This makes it exactly not testable. There is no reason to consider that there are dynamic effects in that setup, though i cannot exclude that there are.

No, not to see how long it moves, this is not the right way to do it. But, with the same initial external energy, make it to move in one direction, and then in the opposite direction. And then see in what direction it rotates for a longer time.

Again theoretically, when there is no overunity, then the direction in that setup should never matter. If it matters, then there is a reason to consider that there is overunity.

PS What concerns the magnetic forces, they are strong. Which gives an impression like a permanent magnet motor should move with a great force, But, as the asymmetry of the field is evidently small, then in the reality what we would deal with, may be a very weak driving force.

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: conradelektro on May 16, 2020, 11:41:14 AM
HelloTom (magnetman12003),

I attached a drawing on which I specify the variables or specs needed for replication.

Feel free to disclose (or not) these variables. It would also be helpful to show a video of the motor in operation and photos.

I do not know your plans and expectations concerning this motor. If you want open replication the specs a necessary. I also warn you, that after complete disclosure you will have lost control of your invention. Many will steal it and claim they have invented it all over the world. The world is not just and not grateful.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: ayeaye on May 16, 2020, 12:08:41 PM
Conradelectro, i think i can answer most of your questions.

The ring magnets are magnetized so that one pole is on one flat side, and the other pole is on another. The material is likely ferrite, that is ceramic, because likely the magnetic field of the 45 degree magnets should go through the ring magnet below them. At that the type of ferrite matters, as different types of ferrite shield more strongly, or more weakly.

About the material of the bolts, etc, i don't know.

PS The world is stealing right. But when things are openly said than no one cal finally deny who was the original author. Like all know that Whitehead invented the motorized airplane, right? This was a nice joke, but then they cannot entirely deny it either.

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: kolbacict on May 16, 2020, 01:56:24 PM
nothing rotates. why?  so beautifully made. tried so hard.  :'(
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: ayeaye on May 16, 2020, 03:42:38 PM
nothing rotates. why?  so beautifully made. tried so hard.  :'(

Ahah, so nice.

Now try to push it to one direction, see how much it moves. Then to the opposite direction with the equal force, see whether it moves more, less or the same. Make sure it is on very leveled surface. Of course everyone can try oneself, but this is not exactly proof, as one cannot prove that the force was exactly the same in both directions. But it may tell something to you.

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: conradelektro on May 16, 2020, 06:14:56 PM
nothing rotates. why?  so beautifully made. tried so hard.  :'(

Of course I do not know, but my guess:

- bottom ring magnet is too big and too powerful (it somehow holds the top ring magnet from rotating freely)
- 45° magnets too small and from the wrong material (Ferrite or Neodymium?)
- angle of rod not correct (not necessarily 45°, could be a bit more or less, angle and weight of rod should be adjustable)

This is why I wanted all the specs and photos from magnetman12003 (Tom). Tom probably had many not working attempts till he found a configuration that just works. And every replicator has to go through all the errors unless he gets the exact specs from Tom.

Guessing when replicating is hopeless. But your replication is indeed a beautiful contraption! And be aware: with permanent magnet motors the inventors are always very very close, just one more little adjustment and it will turn by itself. Sometimes the motor turns by holding "something" by hand, but if this "something" (additional magnet, rod, whatever) is mounted the motor does not turn. The search for a permanent magnet motor is an arduous path.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: kolbacict on May 16, 2020, 07:16:22 PM
Quote
- 45° magnets too small and from the wrong material (Ferrite or Neodymium?)
- angle of rod not correct (not necessarily 45°, could be a bit more or less, angle and weight of rod should be adjustable)
little neodyo. degrees 45. nifiga does not spin.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on May 16, 2020, 11:34:46 PM
Of course I do not know, but my guess:

- bottom ring magnet is too big and too powerful (it somehow holds the top ring magnet from rotating freely)
- 45° magnets too small and from the wrong material (Ferrite or Neodymium?)
- angle of rod not correct (not necessarily 45°, could be a bit more or less, angle and weight of rod should be adjustable)

This is why I wanted all the specs and photos from magnetman12003 (Tom). Tom probably had many not working attempts till he found a configuration that just works. And every replicator has to go through all the errors unless he gets the exact specs from Tom.

Guessing when replicating is hopeless. But your replication is indeed a beautiful contraption! And be aware: with permanent magnet motors the inventors are always very very close, just one more little adjustment and it will turn by itself. Sometimes the motor turns by holding "something" by hand, but if this "something" (additional magnet, rod, whatever) is mounted the motor does not turn. The search for a permanent magnet motor is an arduous path.

Greetings, Conrad


I have taken this to a new level now. I removed the large 5 pound top spinning ceramic magnet entirely. So now all you need is one large ceramic ring magnet, 4 grade 50 neo block magnets, and parts that could be bought from EBay, McMaster Carr, Lowe’s, or Home Depot.


Make what you see in the lower photo. The bottom of my magnet blocks are South Poles.
They face the South Pole of the large stationary ceramic ring magnet below them.
I have two full ceramic wheels stacked on the center rod between both so the setup spins extremely fast.

Why the excitement?  Now I m not pushing the 5 pound ceramic magnet around. Only the 1/4 inch thick wood disk I have my 45 degree magnets bonded to. That disk pivots freely with a finger touch. 
When a threaded rod with a SMALL weight on it is touching the 45 degree magnet the setup spins EXTREMELY fast using your fingers. That same idea takes place not by using your fingers but by using a tumbler with the top side holding the weighted rod at a angle.  I am waiting on some tumblers right now.
Tom
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on May 17, 2020, 09:10:12 AM
What happened to the gray stucco feature that appears in the picture below? Your 5 pound ceramic magnet is missing?


This represents a radical departure from your original design! Now it's identical to "egotronic's" fan blade design.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: skywatcher on May 17, 2020, 11:41:49 AM
Guessing when replicating is hopeless. But your replication is indeed a beautiful contraption! And be aware: with permanent magnet motors the inventors are always very very close, just one more little adjustment and it will turn by itself. Sometimes the motor turns by holding "something" by hand, but if this "something" (additional magnet, rod, whatever) is mounted the motor does not turn. The search for a permanent magnet motor is an arduous path.
There is nothing to replicate because replicating would require a working device in the first place.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on May 17, 2020, 12:33:18 PM
@magnetman12003,


Your new design amounts to nothing more then just adding weights to egotronics model: No different from attaching nuts and bolts to the magnets with the nuts screwed down.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: ayeaye on May 17, 2020, 02:23:03 PM
There is nothing to replicate because replicating would require a working device in the first place.

Yes right. Maybe Magnetman has done some experiments, that people can replicate.

One thing, in such setup it should move more in one direction, than the other. If there is any difference, and otherwise its well made, like well leveled, then this indicates overunity. Has Magnetman done any such experiments?

But then in the more measurable way i think, the force when moving in one direction, should also be greater than the force when moving in other direction.

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on May 17, 2020, 03:51:00 PM
Magnetic nuts and bolts attraction would dampen any oscillation on egotronics magnet fan. I see space for a hamster inside at this point.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: conradelektro on May 17, 2020, 05:10:09 PM
I am still hoping that Tom (magnetman12003) is on to something interesting, therefore I have some questions, see also the attached drawing.

Am I right that the distance of the wooden disk from the (blue and red) disk magnet is kept by the "two full ceramic wheels stacked on the center rod"?

The ring magnet wants to push the wooden disk with the 45° magnets upwards, but the weight of the wooden disk and the 45° magnets push downwards? The "full ceramic wheels" carry the remaining weight of the wooden disk (with the 45° magnets and the tumblers with the rods)? Therefore there is a fixed distance between the wooden disk and the ring magnet?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on May 17, 2020, 09:01:11 PM
I am still hoping that Tom (magnetman12003) is on to something interesting, therefore I have some questions, see also the attached drawing.

Am I right that the distance of the wooden disk from the (blue and red) disk magnet is kept by the "two full ceramic wheels stacked on the center rod"?

The ring magnet wants to push the wooden disk with the 45° magnets upwards, but the weight of the wooden disk and the 45° magnets push downwards? The "full ceramic wheels" carry the remaining weight of the wooden disk (with the 45° magnets and the tumblers with the rods)? Therefore there is a fixed distance between the wooden disk and the ring magnet?

Greetings, Conrad


A Gibraltar TALL ( There is short ones)  flanged base cymbal sleeve 8mm is what pivots the 1/4 inch thick wood base I have
The mounted wood setup is under of a old 45 black record.  Cymbal  sleeve Found on EBay.


The 50x 25x 10mm  (4 each) cuboid magnets are set at 45 degree angles by
45 degree brackets silver furniture angle joint corner support. Both Found on EBay.
I am going to enclose a photo of the two all ceramic wheels separating the wood setup disk from the
Large ceramic ring magnet under it.


Tom
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on May 17, 2020, 09:18:45 PM
The steel carriage bolt would be attracted to the ring magnets and kill any rotation! Turned upside down, the rings would spin longer with the carriage bolts removed from the underside then if attached.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on May 17, 2020, 09:29:27 PM
The steel carriage bolt would be attracted to the ring magnets and kill any rotation! Turned upside down, the rings would spin longer with the carriage bolts removed from the underside then if attached.


I put the steel carriage bolt there to show the 2 ceramic wheels under  the wood disk while I took the picture.  It means nothing here except to separate???
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on May 17, 2020, 09:35:24 PM

I put the steel carriage bolt there to show the 2 ceramic wheels under  the wood disk while I took the picture.  It means nothing here except to separate???


They're still gonna stick.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on May 17, 2020, 09:48:20 PM

They're still gonna stick.
That’s incorrect. I just tried ( 2 ) six inch carriage bolts without weights on them on my setup without the tumblers just using my fingers and my setup turns quickly.  Soon as I get my tumblers mounted I will be showing a hand free video.  There is no sticky spot or wobble just a straight counter clockwise turn from the get go.  You can produce a clockwise turn by reversing  the drawn image  Shown on page 10
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: conradelektro on May 17, 2020, 09:53:24 PM
A Gibraltar TALL ( There is short ones)  flanged base cymbal sleeve 8mm is what pivots the 1/4 inch thick wood base I have
The mounted wood setup is under of a old 45 black record.  Cymbal  sleeve Found on EBay.

The 50x 25x 10mm  (4 each) cuboid magnets are set at 45 degree angles by
45 degree brackets silver furniture angle joint corner support. Both Found on EBay.
I am going to enclose a photo of the two all ceramic wheels separating the wood setup disk from the
Large ceramic ring magnet under it.

Tom

Thank you Tom for the explanations, the photos and the disclosure. Everybody who wants to experiment is able to do that now. And I am sure You will show us your invention once you have the tumblers. I also experience huge shipping delays in this world wide virus crisis.

I hope critics will realise that a full disclosure of ideas is rare. Please applaud Tom and stop giving him a hard time. He has come forward.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on May 17, 2020, 10:13:35 PM
Thank you Tom for the explanations, the photos and the disclosure. Everybody who wants to experiment is able to do that now. And I am sure You will show us your invention once you have the tumblers. I also experience huge shipping delays in this world wide virus crisis.

I hope critics will realise that a full disclosure of ideas is rare. Please applaud Tom and stop giving him a hard time. He has come forward.

Greetings, Conrad


@Conradelectro,


This guy is a bonafide braunschwigger. Give me a break; You're causing me to have an ambulance level laugh attack!
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: conradelektro on May 17, 2020, 10:57:58 PM
@Conradelectro,

This guy is a bonafide braunschwigger. Give me a break; You're causing me to have an ambulance level laugh attack!

First, it's "Braunschweiger" https://www.janatuerlich.at/produkt/bio-braunschweiger/ (https://www.janatuerlich.at/produkt/bio-braunschweiger/) and you should not resort to name calling.

Whatever Tom has, it will play itself out, give it time. And if someone has done experiments without results, at least it was fun. One has to have an open mind in these forums. You really think someone gives a true invention away for free? The beauty in these forums are the people who show up not the things they claim.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on May 17, 2020, 11:17:43 PM
First, it's "Braunschweiger" https://www.janatuerlich.at/produkt/bio-braunschweiger/ (https://www.janatuerlich.at/produkt/bio-braunschweiger/) and you should not resort to name calling.

Whatever Tom has, it will play itself out, give it time. And if someone has done experiments without results, at least it was fun. One has to have an open mind in these forums. You really think someone gives a true invention away for free? The beauty in these forums are the people who show up not the things they claim.

Greetings, Conrad


I am a 79 year old man and the C virus would probably kill me.  Anyways I have been staying inside my home only to venture out in a car for a short time wearing a mask. I do all my shopping online including groceries.  What I have shown is what I believe is what future motors will look like when I am finished.  All is open source info.  When I have shown my motor in operation I plan to sell it outright to the highest bidder to cover my cost in making it and then some.  They could patent it or do what they want from that point. In the meantime  every one can make it if they wished. My only hope is to be remembered as the guy who invented it.


Tom
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on May 18, 2020, 08:22:15 AM
Tom states he's unsure of the carriage bolt material, but he also states it sticks to the block magnet. I believe they are low grade magnetic stainless steel.

Lowering the top with 4 bolts attached to within 1/2" of the two coupled ring magnets beneath would cause the four large magnetic carriage bolts to stick fast to the rings. There is no way anything on that setup could ever spin!

Tom's first design did not share that outstanding "Lock Up" feature. 79 years is enough time to produce a loose screw.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: conradelektro on May 18, 2020, 11:46:52 AM
I am a 79 year old man and the C virus would probably kill me.  Anyways I have been staying inside my home only to venture out in a car for a short time wearing a mask. I do all my shopping online including groceries.  What I have shown is what I believe is what future motors will look like when I am finished.  All is open source info.  When I have shown my motor in operation I plan to sell it outright to the highest bidder to cover my cost in making it and then some.  They could patent it or do what they want from that point. In the meantime  every one can make it if they wished. My only hope is to be remembered as the guy who invented it.

Tom

"What I have shown is what I believe is what future motors will look like when I am finished."   So, it is not finished in the sense of not self-turning?

"All is open source info."  Open source is hard to sell, everybody can just take it for free!

"When I have shown my motor in operation I plan to sell it outright to the highest bidder to cover my cost in making it and then some."  Once it is truly shown in an open forum the bidding is over and one is left with the costs!

"They could patent it or do what they want from that point." You patent it then you show it, not the other way round. One can not patent disclosed things, they have become common good.

"My only hope is to be remembered as the guy who invented it."  Nobody has invented the habit of making false claims, it is human nature, even apes, dolphins and some parrots know how to do it!

What I have said in this forum several times:

Outlandish inventions (if ever they do exist, like OU or self turning permanent magnet motors, antigravity) are very difficult to handle. Patenting is of no use, because every military or government must secure it for their people or lose the competition for power. Like the atomic bomb, every powerful nation has got it. The same goes with selling. If something is very important, the world will just take it. So, if you have invented something really important, shut up, run and hide. You could try to disclose it anonymously, but you will be tracked down and dealt with.

But besides the atomic bomb and other weapons (e.g the rocket, explosives or guns) there never was an outlandish invention. All other good inventions needed some time to ripen and ownership was diluted till it hit the market or became useful (e.g. the steam engine, transistors, electric motors, all sorts of electric lights, electronics in general, and so on, look around you, who invented the mobile phone or central heating?). Patenting is about little steps in the development of technology. Most important things are discoveries, you can not patent things you observe in nature or in the universe in general (like the "laws" or better said "relationships" in physics, chemistry or mathematics).

Keep on dreaming, inventing and claiming, it is fun to watch. I have invented antigravity, my desk has no feet, it floats. But I am clever, I keep it for myself, no photos, no hints, it is totally secret.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on May 18, 2020, 07:22:11 PM
Tom states he's unsure of the carriage bolt material, but he also states it sticks to the block magnet. I believe they are low grade magnetic stainless steel.

Lowering the top with 4 bolts attached to within 1/2" of the two coupled ring magnets beneath would cause the four large magnetic carriage bolts to stick fast to the rings. There is no way anything on that setup could ever spin!

Tom's first design did not share that outstanding "Lock Up" feature. 79 years is enough time to produce a loose screw.
The bolts did not stick fast to the large ring magnet but spun with a finger touch without the tumbler in place and the bolts are angled and touching the 45 degree magnet (All done with fingers) All needed now are my tumblers.
Tom
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: conradelektro on May 19, 2020, 08:10:50 AM
I rather should not, but I decided to give a little hint and an inconclusive photo of my antigravity desk. If you enter my study you will see a desk with feet, but the feet float 2 millimeters (5/64 inches) above the floor. One can only see that by sliding a sheet of paper between the floor and the bottom of a foot. In this way the invention is well hidden from prying eyes.

I suspect that magnetman12003's permanent magnet motor is in fact an antigravity contraption and he hides it as a motor. A clever ploy.

I always advice to not speak about an invention in an open forum (to be able to patent and sell it later on). But magnetman12003 and me, we both could not resist the temptation to brag a bit about our invention (as so many in this forum). Of course the essential details are not shown, they will be in the patent.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on May 19, 2020, 11:44:27 AM
"Of course the essential details are not shown".[/size]

[/size]
Perhaps to conceal a hidden power source! Magnetman12003 has demonstrated a few very powerful magnet spinners. Placing one out of sight can produce remote effects.[/size]
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on May 19, 2020, 11:45:30 AM
                                       "Of course the essential details are not shown".


Perhaps to conceal a hidden power source? Magnetman12003 has demonstrated a few very powerful magnet spinners. Placing one out of sight could easily produce "Poltergeist" effects from a distance. The erect magnetic bolts would serve as sails for the flux vortex.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: conradelektro on May 19, 2020, 02:34:49 PM
                                       "Of course the essential details are not shown".
Perhaps to conceal a hidden power source? Magnetman12003 has demonstrated a few very powerful magnet spinners. Placing one out of sight could easily produce "Poltergeist" effects from a distance. The erect magnetic bolts would serve as sails for the flux vortex.

Are Poltergeist and flux vortex really a better explanation than antigravity? What about ether radiation or zero point energy, much better is a Tesla charge from a bifilar pancake coil?

I think there is a bifilar pancake coil (à la Tesla) hidden in the wooden disk of the magnetman12003 invention and the "high tension which is converted into energy stored between the bifilar windings" causes anti gravity. If you look carefully at the short video published bei Tom you can see the light distortion which always comes hand in hand with anti gravity. I see this peculiar and telling light distortion also around my anti gravity desk, but it is hard to capture on video. (Therefore no video!)

Guess where the pancake coil is hidden in my anti gravity desk (hint: what is big, horizontal, rather thin and flat on a desk)?

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on May 19, 2020, 09:19:05 PM
There is no hidden pancake coil or Tesla coil period!!! If you will construct my setup as shown you will be amazed as I was that it works so long as the threaded steel bolt actually touches the 45 degree block magnet at a angle.  That angle can be set using the top of a tumbler so one can work it finger free.  That’s my next step.


Tom
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on May 21, 2020, 10:12:10 PM
There is no hidden pancake coil or Tesla coil period!!! If you will construct my setup as shown you will be amazed as I was that it works so long as the threaded steel bolt actually touches the 45 degree block magnet at a angle.  That angle can be set using the top of a tumbler so one can work it finger free.  That’s my next step.


Tom
There is no reason the large ring magnet now has to be under the free turning  disk with four 45 degree magnets mounted on its surface. I only included it so the disk won’t wobble when weighted down.


As long as the threaded steel WEIGHTED rod makes contact with the magnet the disk will turn.
Think of that in simple terms.  You are stranding on a carpet with a slick oil spot under it. As long as you stand strait up you won’t move.  The second your weight shifts at a angle the carpet will slide out from under you.


My setup is made that simple. 
Tom
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on May 22, 2020, 04:08:37 PM
any and all gravity direction is toward the center of the planet not sideways.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on May 22, 2020, 06:42:05 PM
any and all gravity direction is toward the center of the planet not sideways.
The 45 degree blocks are on the OUTSIDES of the 7 1/2 inch diameter spinning disk and that is not the center point of the setup.
End result is the disk spins with weight on the magnet blocks. I have tried this many times and it works every time as long as there is an angle between the threaded rod with weight on it and the rod touches the magnet block. 45 degree seems to work best so far.
Tom
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Magluvin on May 22, 2020, 11:44:52 PM
If it is the additional weight that is the ticket, then does it have to be a bolt that is magnetic?
If it is a magnetic alteration that happens to the 'upper' pole to change its original path, then there must be many ways of doing just that in place of the bolts. 

On of the issues with a mag motor setup like this is, and many dont realize this, is that the is just as much flux from the N side of the angles magnet as the is S pole flux thus no movement. But, if the bolts a redistributing the upper pole in a way that the top pole has less influence on rotation, then maybe the lower or say bottom angled pole has a chance at deflecting the rotor into rotation.  Im not fully convinced it will work as in most cases in physics like this, there is no release of downward pressure to allow continuous motion. But maybe it could be different with magnets..  What I mean by that is typically if magnets are in repulsion or attraction, the net result of any of these actions using moving parts would be the attraction would tend to move the magnets closer and repulsion would move them away. But here the differences would or should remain static, just like the big speaker magnet field, static.
Mags
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on May 23, 2020, 01:09:31 AM
If it is the additional weight that is the ticket, then does it have to be a bolt that is magnetic?
If it is a magnetic alteration that happens to the 'upper' pole to change its original path, then there must be many ways of doing just that in place of the bolts. 

On of the issues with a mag motor setup like this is, and many dont realize this, is that the is just as much flux from the N side of the angles magnet as the is S pole flux thus no movement. But, if the bolts a redistributing the upper pole in a way that the top pole has less influence on rotation, then maybe the lower or say bottom angled pole has a chance at deflecting the rotor into rotation.  Im not fully convinced it will work as in most cases in physics like this, there is no release of downward pressure to allow continuous motion. But maybe it could be different with magnets..  What I mean by that is typically if magnets are in repulsion or attraction, the net result of any of these actions using moving parts would be the attraction would tend to move the magnets closer and repulsion would move them away. But here the differences would or should remain static, just like the big speaker magnet field, static.
Mags


I found that using a common steel threaded bolt that was least expensive worked well for me. As long as it had a lead weight near the center of the bolt and the bottom of the bolt was actually touching or pressing onto the 45 degree mounted magnet. My setup spins very fast with fingers holding the bolt at an angle near 45 degrees. Bolt touching the 45 degree magnet.
By using a plastic tumbler to hold up the top end it will spin fingers free. That angle can be set by using the hight of the tumbler lip. My plastic tumblers should be here shortly
If you wish to see a video of this action look at you tubes ((Magnet motor without tumbler))
I am finger holding the weighted threaded steel rod strait up with nothing happening but when I place it at a angle the setup spins by itself rapidly.

Tom
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on May 23, 2020, 02:05:07 AM
See Above

Tom
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on May 23, 2020, 09:05:09 AM
Here's the Hyperlink to Tom's new video:

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1zKbI3pyuE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=q1zKbI3pyuE)
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on May 23, 2020, 03:09:40 PM
See Above

Tom
Hi Tom,

Thanks for the video, it shows the source of the input energy that causes rotation:

it is the lead weight (lead sinker) tilting movement from a near vertical position towards the near 45 degree position.

And indeed the 6 inch long bolt would exert a pushing force onto the rotatable platform and indeed this force can mainly
come from gravity and from your hand supporting (but not holding!) the bolt with the lead weights on it. 

Your earlier explanation is also ok: 

https://overunity.com/18444/all-permanent-magnet-motor/msg545853/#msg545853 (https://overunity.com/18444/all-permanent-magnet-motor/msg545853/#msg545853)

"Think of that in simple terms.  You are stranding (standing) on a carpet with a slick oil spot under it. As long as you stand
strait up you won’t move.  The second your weight shifts at a angle the carpet will slide out from under you. 
My setup is made that simple."   

To make your weight shift you need to make a sudden movement with your body: this is the input energy in this example.

So the moment the bolt with the weights on it gets into the 45 degree resting position, after tilting from its near vertical position,
the initial rotation of the rotor will slowly stop (friction depending). 

Notice that if you tether the bolt (to a support also on the rotor) by a piece of thread to let it rest in the 45 degree position,
 after that the bolt was let tilt from its original vertical position, the pushing force on the rotor can only be smaller than in case
you support the tilting by your hand.  This is because your hand is a support independent from the rotor
 while a tether support mounted onto the rotor is not independent but tied to it. 

I attached two shots from your video, one with the near vertical bolt and the other shows the mostly gravity tilted bolt starts moving the rotor. 
So your setup will not spin if you mount the bolts in immediately in the 45 degree position and do not let them suddenly tilt
by gravity.  But even if you let the bolts tilt first to start rotation, the rotor will stop because the bolts will then remain in resting
at the 45 degree position.
 Understand? 

Gyula
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on May 23, 2020, 03:26:02 PM
Once the 45 degree steel rod rests in position, all the weight is directed straight down; Not off to one side!
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on May 23, 2020, 07:52:29 PM
Hi Tom,

Thanks for the video, it shows the source of the input energy that causes rotation:

it is the lead weight (lead sinker) tilting movement from a near vertical position towards the near 45 degree position.

And indeed the 6 inch long bolt would exert a pushing force onto the rotatable platform and indeed this force can mainly
come from gravity and from your hand supporting (but not holding!) the bolt with the lead weights on it. 

Your earlier explanation is also ok: 

https://overunity.com/18444/all-permanent-magnet-motor/msg545853/#msg545853 (https://overunity.com/18444/all-permanent-magnet-motor/msg545853/#msg545853)

"Think of that in simple terms.  You are stranding (standing) on a carpet with a slick oil spot under it. As long as you stand
strait up you won’t move.  The second your weight shifts at a angle the carpet will slide out from under you. 
My setup is made that simple."   

To make your weight shift you need to make a sudden movement with your body: this is the input energy in this example.

So the moment the bolt with the weights on it gets into the 45 degree resting position, after tilting from its near vertical position,
the initial rotation of the rotor will slowly stop (friction depending). 

Notice that if you tether the bolt (to a support also on the rotor) by a piece of thread to let it rest in the 45 degree position,
 after that the bolt was let tilt from its original vertical position, the pushing force on the rotor can only be smaller than in case
you support the tilting by your hand.  This is because your hand is a support independent from the rotor
 while a tether support mounted onto the rotor is not independent but tied to it. 

I attached two shots from your video, one with the near vertical bolt and the other shows the mostly gravity tilted bolt starts moving the rotor. 
So your setup will not spin if you mount the bolts in immediately in the 45 degree position and do not let them suddenly tilt
by gravity.  But even if you let the bolts tilt first to start rotation, the rotor will stop because the bolts will then remain in resting
at the 45 degree position.
 Understand? 

Gyula
I was holding the camera for that video by myself.  I found out that once the disk spinning action starts it does not quit by holding the bolt in at an angle.  The disk keeps turning so long as the bolt pressure is on the magnet. You have to try it for yourself to see what I am talking about. 
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: conradelektro on May 23, 2020, 08:11:57 PM
Tom, what happened to your tumblers or cups? I am sleepless since weeks waiting for a video with the tumblers and everything in place. And hopefully all turning without fingers in the way. The big magnet ring is gone, but no tumblers?

I almost killed myself with the carpet experiment. Leaning backwards till the carpet slid away and me being in the air for a short time. The landing was not so nice. I should have used a huge tumbler to hold on to.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on May 23, 2020, 10:53:32 PM
Tom, what happened to your tumblers or cups? I am sleepless since weeks waiting for a video with the tumblers and everything in place. And hopefully all turning without fingers in the way. The big magnet ring is gone, but no tumblers?

I almost killed myself with the carpet experiment. Leaning backwards till the carpet slid away and me being in the air for a short time. The landing was not so nice. I should have used a huge tumbler to hold on to.

Greetings, Conrad


I don’t go out to buy anything but food anymore because of the virus.  All my stuff is ordered now and sent by mail to me.  Good luck ordering anything from China now.    You will find that the steel bolt with a weight on it applies pressure to the 45/degree magnet and that is  what causes the setup to spin as long as the bolt is applying the pressure.   To make it finger free I decided to use a tumbler and angle the bolt inside it.  Use the lip of the tumbler to rest the top of the bolt on. Also allow the bottom of the bolt to touch the 45 degree magnet which it’s attracted to anyhow for pressure.


If done with enough weight on the bolt the disc will keep spinning.   Why should it stop???
I already tried this using my hands without making a video and found I had to Hand chase the bolt around and around.


I finally got my tumblers in so in a short time I will see what happens.


Tom

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on May 23, 2020, 11:40:23 PM
I was holding the camera for that video by myself.  I found out that once the disk spinning action starts 
it does not quit by holding the bolt in at an angle.  The disk keeps turning so long as the bolt pressure is 
on the magnet. You have to try it for yourself to see what I am talking about.
Hi Tom,
All I can say is that I keep my fingers crossed your received tumblers would maintain the desired continuous rotation... 

Please, if you make another video, include the start-up of the rotor from a stand still position as you place
the bolts one by one into the tumblers. 

Gyula
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on May 24, 2020, 02:07:55 AM
Hi Tom,
All I can say is that I keep my fingers crossed your received tumblers would maintain the desired continuous rotation... 

Please, if you make another video, include the start-up of the rotor from a stand still position as you place
the bolts one by one into the tumblers. 

Gyula
I plan to do just as you say. The bolt angle has to be at 45 degrees or close to it as I am finding out.
Also the threaded bolt MUST touch the 45 degree mounted magnet and have the weight of the bolt on it to insure setup spin. I will have to notch out my tumblers bottoms  to allow the touch to happen.
It also looks like i might have to drill a hole in the side of the tumbler so I can set the bolt angle at or near 45 degrees.  Will let everyone know when finished.
Tom
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on May 25, 2020, 10:24:32 PM

I plan to do just as you say. The bolt angle has to be at 45 degrees or close to it as I am finding out.
Also the threaded bolt MUST touch the 45 degree mounted magnet and have the weight of the bolt on it to insure setup spin. I will have to notch out my tumblers bottoms  to allow the touch to happen.
It also looks like i might have to drill a hole in the side of the tumbler so I can set the bolt angle at or near 45 degrees.  Will let everyone know when finished.
Tom

I am having tumbler trouble so I will go to plan B.  Since Overhead finger holding the top end of the threaded bolt works while the bottom of the bolt is resting on the 45 degree magnet another thought occurred.
Why not use a overhead sling affair and come in holding the top of the threaded bolt from above - with fingers not needed. I have started to make that already and it shows great promise.
More work to do yet to insure that the threaded bolt top is physically secured to the rubber O ring you see in the photo.  The O ring is the sling.
Tom
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on May 25, 2020, 11:10:47 PM
Rubber bands and craft sticks can be used to create any kind of problem solution.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: gyulasun on May 26, 2020, 12:19:15 PM

...
I am having tumbler trouble so I will go to plan B.  Since Overhead finger holding the top end of the threaded bolt works while the bottom of the bolt is resting on the 45 degree magnet another thought occurred.
Why not use a overhead sling affair and come in holding the top of the threaded bolt from above - with fingers not needed. I have started to make that already and it shows great promise.
More work to do yet to insure that the threaded bolt top is physically secured to the rubber O ring you see in the photo.  The O ring is the sling.
Tom
Hi Tom,
I agree, your approach shown is a good one to get rid any hand activity that may give any input energy to the setup.

When I wrote my previous post to you, I prepared this text too but did not post because you reported to receive the tumblers. Now I include that text and attach an earlier picture of yours I edited to show how you could get rid of using your hand.
"I would like to suggest the following: 
Please fasten a kinda crossbar onto the top part of shaft as I show it in the picture below. The bar could be made from any rigid material, its task  would be to keep the bolt at the needed 45 degree position by a piece of thread. This way you do not need to hold the bolt by your hand  any more: you gently let the bolt fall towards the 45 degree final position from its vertical position. This small pushing force that the tilting bolt  gives to the rotor would surely start the rotor. 
From this test, you could clearly see how long the rotor will be able to rotate from that pushing force. " 

So you use a piece of thread just long enogh to hold the bolt at the needed 45° angle while hanging its top part from the bar's end.  And then you could let the bolt fall from its vertical position into the needed direction (when the rotor is at a stand still) to arrive at its final 45° position and see how long the rotor would rotate from this falling bolt+lead weigth impact onto the rotor.  If one bolt is not enough then use two at 180° apart from each other.

Good luck, 
Gyula
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on May 26, 2020, 02:01:07 PM
Just brace the bolt between two upright craft sticks and bind them with a rubber band like below.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: conradelektro on May 27, 2020, 01:47:53 PM
Here is a video of the motor turning folks.
Shown a little out of focus to hide important parts.
More to come later on  in focus.
[size=0px] trim.17710BDE-D6F0-4FCF-A4A8-9A3F9B52D538.MOV (https://overunity.com/18444/all-permanent-magnet-motor/dlattach/attach/175353/)[/font][/size][size=0px] [/size]

Tom (magnetmann12003), why don't you admit that the video was not exactly reality but more hope or idea (or a push by hand)?

It is fine to go overboard with an idea and to hope for the impossible a bit too much. But you should tell us the truth. It was amusing, but the fun is over by now, it has become a drag.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: ayeaye on May 27, 2020, 03:47:13 PM
It is fine to go overboard with an idea and to hope for the impossible a bit too much. But you should tell us the truth. It was amusing, but the fun is over by now, it has become a drag.

It has. Not excluding any possibility, my estimation is this though. that Magnetman got some improvements, so it rotates more, with a lot of work, at that. Maybe he thought that his device is capable of continuous rotation, but maybe he didn't test it thoroughly.

Here though, one may throw away all that Magnetman could find, by abandoning his work as a continuously running device. I think he should provide more results of his work, and experiments that he did, to show the things that he really found. And these, if properly provided, can really be replicated.

This, all or nothing, is what makes the research impossible. People think about it like a treasure hunt, you either find treasure or you don't. But research is not a treasure hunt. It is a series of experiments and theoretical work, that gradually comes close to the solution.

People refuse to do that research, they replicate, and then it either starts to continuously rotate, or it doesn't. I said to test whether it rotates more easily in one direction, than in the other. People refuse to do even that, all or nothing. Don't they realize that approaching it like that is crazy.

Instead of trying to get it all at once, do research. Why no one replicates my experiment, i did an experiment, in another tread here, where i really measured gain of energy, and it was replicated and results confirmed. It is about 45 degree magnets that Magnetman used too. Yes it didn't overcome friction, but it is a gradual work to decrease friction, and increase energy gain. But no, all or nothing.

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on May 27, 2020, 05:10:27 PM
Why are you stalling around? It would take five minutes for me to set those bolts up on an angle with the popsicle sticks and rubber bands. You sent to China for tumblers you couldn't get to work right?


You look like you're just procrastinating to a lot of people. Poor show!
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: conradelektro on May 27, 2020, 06:30:53 PM
This, all or nothing, is what makes the research impossible. People think about it like a treasure hunt, you either find treasure or you don't. But research is not a treasure hunt. It is a series of experiments and theoretical work, that gradually comes close to the solution.

People refuse to do that research, they replicate, and then it either starts to continuously rotate, or it doesn't. I said to test whether it rotates more easily in one direction, than in the other. People refuse to do even that, all or nothing. Don't they realize that approaching it like that is crazy.

Instead of trying to get it all at once, do research. Why no one replicates my experiment, i did an experiment, in another tread here, where i really measured gain of energy, and it was replicated and results confirmed. It is about 45 degree magnets that Magnetman used too. Yes it didn't overcome friction, but it is a gradual work to decrease friction, and increase energy gain. But no, all or nothing.

My problem:

If you want people to replicate your work you should tell them them truth. It is not helpful at all to claim that something turns by itself or is OU if it really is not.

Very often in this forum people tell tall stories (lies) about their non functioning devices. Some are deluded or handicapped, but many simply lie.

It is fine to tell that something is a so far inconclusive experiment, but please do not make unsubstantiated claims, do not embellish your contraptions. You will look silly or you seem to be a crook.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on May 27, 2020, 09:28:42 PM
My problem:

If you want people to replicate your work you should tell them them truth. It is not helpful at all to claim that something turns by itself or is OU if it really is not.

Very often in this forum people tell tall stories (lies) about their non functioning devices. Some are deluded or handicapped, but many simply lie.

It is fine to tell that something is a so far inconclusive experiment, but please do not make unsubstantiated claims, do not embellish your contraptions. You will look silly or you seem to be a crook.

Greetings, Conrad


I really found that by using the 45 degree magnet angle  I got it to work somehow at first
but later try as I might it did not work.  It seems by working overhead as one does using the fingers
is the way to go.  If you are following me without doing anything at all so be it.  If you are experimenting on your own you will find that the overhead sling setup I last described is working for me. I plan to make a video to show it in action within a weeks time. I have to find out how long it will operate first before I get really excited.
I am only using two threaded steel bolts with weights on them presently.
Four will be used later for more power.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on May 29, 2020, 02:58:09 AM

I really found that by using the 45 degree magnet angle  I got it to work somehow at first
but later try as I might it did not work.  It seems by working overhead as one does using the fingers
is the way to go.  If you are following me without doing anything at all so be it.  If you are experimenting on your own you will find that the overhead sling setup I last described is working for me. I plan to make a video to show it in action within a weeks time. I have to find out how long it will operate first before I get really excited.
I am only using two threaded steel bolts with weights on them presently.
Four will be used later for more power.


After thinking it over I plan to show the working motor only after I patent it.
I already gave out enough information about it if someone decides to use the SLING METHOD of making it. It’s not as simple as it looks to be as anyone attempting to replicate it will find out.
But you will see the light after you play with it a while.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on May 29, 2020, 08:53:01 AM

After thinking it over I plan to show the working motor only after I patent it.
I already gave out enough information about it if someone decides to use the SLING METHOD of making it. It’s not as simple as it looks to be as anyone attempting to replicate it will find out.
But you will see the light after you play with it a while.


Balk!
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: conradelektro on May 29, 2020, 08:59:41 AM
After thinking it over I plan to show the working motor only after I patent it.

Oh, one wants to patent it, surprise, surprise!

There are hundreds of permanent magnet motor patents (the allegedly self turning kind, without any other power source, the impossible ones) and none of them really works.

Therefore take note: patenting something does not make it work and it definitely is no proof that it works.

The patent offices of this world do not check whether something works and the requirement that something is not allowed to contradict current wisdom is handled in a very lax way. As long as you pay the fees, everything goes, it is a matter of wording.

O.k. discussion is over, spare us the cryptic hints.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: citfta on May 29, 2020, 01:18:13 PM
I was really afraid this was where this thread was going.  I have been experimenting for the last couple of years with magnet interactions.  And I just did not see how this could work.  So now the usual excuse.  "I have shown you enough. Now I am going to get rich."


For anyone interested in some real experiments with magnets but no claims of OU you can watch videos of my progress in Floor's builders section in the thread "Possible magnet motor idea experiments".  Some of the videos show some interesting interactions that might surprise you.


Carroll
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Magluvin on May 29, 2020, 04:01:46 PM
Holding the weighted bolt against the angled magnet at or near 45deg by hand, its like lifting a 10ft 4x4 by one end while the other end digs into the ground, in the similar direction that the wheel seems to move.  So as you lift the end of the long board and try to stand it upright, it digs into the dirt more and more as you lift the one end. Now with that same 4x4 10ft board, put a roller skate under the other end and try to stand up the board from the other end.   ;)
Sorry my fellow mag man, it was your hand interaction that had direct affect on the wheel turning. But if you insist on a pat, you can do a little studying and draw up your own prov pat(after doing a pat search to see if it has already been pat) and it only cost you $75. If it is granted, you are covered for 1 year.
Mags
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: citfta on May 29, 2020, 04:11:17 PM
Hi Mags,


That's a very good analogy of what is going on with his magmotor.



Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: ayeaye on May 29, 2020, 05:07:28 PM
You recommend Floor thanks yes, i recommend this  https://overunity.com/18363/getting-energy-from-asymmetry-of-the-magnetic-field-experiment/ . This is really about 45 degrees magnets, it has really measured gain of energy, and it is replicated with the results confirmed.

You, Floor and Norman, please don't talk to Stefan, i said he has a difficult time right now. But you still do.

I don't know what Magnetman is going to do, but i used to know him and it seems that he found something. One way to find it out is to start from the beginning, and my experiment with the 45 degree magnets is such beginning.

What is confusing in the Magnetman device, is that the 45 degree magnets are on the ring magnet. But i see it so that, this ring magnet is quite thin, and made of the ferrite material such that it does not much shield magnetic field. Thus the field of the 45 degree magnets goes through that ring magnet, to the bottom big ring magnet, and there is all the interaction with the 45 degree magnet. Maybe not quite accurate, maybe there is something else, but this is how i see it right now.

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Magluvin on May 31, 2020, 02:10:56 AM


What is confusing in the Magnetman device, is that the 45 degree magnets are on the ring magnet. But i see it so that, this ring magnet is quite thin, and made of the ferrite material such that it does not much shield magnetic field. Thus the field of the 45 degree magnets goes through that ring magnet, to the bottom big ring magnet, and there is all the interaction with the 45 degree magnet. Maybe not quite accurate, maybe there is something else, but this is how i see it right now.
What would really blow your mind is, if it did work, the magnets above the speaker magnet could be mounted directly to the speaker magnet and it could all spin as one, as per the Faraday paradox criteria. ;)
Mags
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Magluvin on May 31, 2020, 02:33:22 AM
But if you insist on a pat, you can do a little studying and draw up your own prov pat(after doing a pat search to see if it has already been pat) and it only cost you $75. If it is granted, you are covered for 1 year.
Mags
I have a book I used to guide me in making a prov pat and it was just as I said, $75 and wait for it to be granted. Was covered for a year. It was for remote controlled wheel lighting for cars and trucks. Custom wheels with removable center caps(some wheel designs work, some not), i put leds in the center cap with an rf receiver and a 9v batt and the leds shine outward on the spokes to the inner part of the outer rim. Had supposed investors but most wanted to be more than 50% ownership with no substantial investment to me on their part. Was a couple years of big disappointments.  So I shut them all down and shelved it.  About 4 years later a company made an advanced set that had rgb leds on the spokes in line with the spoke. Was rf controlled but you could produce pictures as the wheel spins down the road.  They were selling for$3000 back in the early 2000s.
So in the future if you plan on pat an idea that works, best to keep it to yourself and have a very good Non Disclosure Agreement if you plan on showing ANYONE. ;)
As per OU devices, I am about open source.  But lets say I had a device and still wanted to open source, if someone wanted a prebuilt device, I would sell one to them. Not crazy money but something that would help pay for needed equip and time to spend on future projects and or making improvements on the existing device. But would make it clear to the buyer that it will be open source and have an agreement made with them that my intentions of open sourcing hold firm.
Open source doesnt mean you cannot make some money with a device. If it were made public to all, then it would still need to be made in factories for the masses. But I dont think that an ou device could be such unless the idea of real ou is verified and proof shown to the population that OU actually is real. Otherwise if you go it alone and try to get rich, it would be as problematic similar to say Stan Meyers. 8) :o ;)
There just needs to be a very good way of getting the knowledge out there firstly so that you will not be alone with that knowledge and end up like poor Stan. :'(
Mags
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Magluvin on May 31, 2020, 05:27:00 AM
Hi Mags,


That's a very good analogy of what is going on with his magmotor.
Hey Citfta

Probably even better one is say standing up a 20 ft ladder.  May need someone to hold down the base end even without wheels on the base. ;)

But sure, at 45 deg with one guy trying to erect the ladder would be the point of things being really tough.  Just lifting the top end 10 deg may have relatively no forward pressure at the base, and once you are above 45deg, say 80 deg, again, less forward pressure than at 45 deg.

Im Magmans setup, holding up the end of the bolt to 45 deg with the finger, the only way the wheel will turn is if the finger helps hold that 45deg as that end of the bolt would want to fall if the finger wasnt there.  If we had a stand that was rigid to the table and an arm out to the bolt to hold it up instead of the finger, the wheel wont turn causing the end of the bolt to slide off the stand arm unless the surface holding the top end of the bolt is at an angle. But if it were the head of the bolt on top and the bottom edge of the head were set on a  flat surface of the arm, then it will not turn as the top of the bolt now has a solid reference point to hang onto. Now if we were able to quickly let the stand arm holding up the head of the bolt, as said above, drop out of the way of holding the bolt at 45 deg, as the top end of the bolt drops, it will not just fall straight down, that end of the bolt will be moving laterally, thus giving a lateral push against the 45deg magnet.  Why not just glue the bolt to the magnet at 45deg? ???  If we try to hold the bolt at 45deg any other way, especially by hand, what is the effective difference compared to just gluing the bolt to the magnet? The key suspect is the hand of which must be pushing the rotor around. And if it only works by hand, then we have our answer as to what makes the rotor turn. Not saying Magman is trying to trick anyone, as I believe he feels it is the answer somehow and just doesnt realize what is actually happening. its hard to determine exact forces in different directions by hand. Ive had that many times in the past. But once you do realize the issue, the best thing is to admit the flaw and everyone will respect that.  ;)

Might be interesting to try a halbach magnet with this. halbachs can be many different configurations. If we avoid or say remove or redirect the top pole fields from view of the large speaker magnets field, maybe there could be some action.  Like if we look at the field from the side of the 45deg magnet in Magmans setup, we should see a lot of the field of the 45deg down facing magnet pole not making a path to the top side of itself by way of the lowest bottom edge, but rather mostly  finding a path upward and around the top edge, due to the repulsive force of the speaker magnet. Lol and maybe not as the speaker magnet may draw downward the attractive fields of the top side of the magnet and maybe the magnets fields may look unchanged by the speaker magnet. ??? So would that apply forward motion of the rotor? Probably not. But some of the halbach configurations may offer some other effects than I described that I believe exist in the Magmans setup.

Or maybe an upper and lower speaker magnet, and try opposing or attracting with each other?  Would be awesome if this simple idea, how many would perceive it working just understanding simple N n S magnetics, can work. But I would say dont stop there if this config does not work.  Im just coming off the top of my head with some of many other possible ways to think on and try. Learn from this one. Dont just learn that it doesnt work. Learn exactly why it doesnt work and try to solve that problem. ;) ;D

Mags
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on June 03, 2020, 02:57:36 PM
Just a cheap gyp!
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: ayeaye on June 03, 2020, 05:36:11 PM
magnets above the speaker magnet could be mounted directly to the speaker magnet and it could all spin as one, as per the Faraday paradox

No way.

I also don't think there is any fancy explanation to all these bolts, etc, of the 45 degree magnets. I think the magnetic field is just uneven, and it needs flexibility to smoothen it, as overcoming friction is so difficult to achieve that every small thing matters. But i think these are just technical details, it is in essence a 45 degree magnet moving in the field of the pole of the ring magnet. Nothing more fancy, but the overunity due to asymmetry of the field is an interesting physical phenomenon sure.

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: kolbacict on June 03, 2020, 07:47:12 PM
And if magnets at an angle of 45 are replaced by amazing banana magnets?
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Airstriker on June 22, 2020, 09:49:47 PM

After thinking it over I plan to show the working motor only after I patent it.
I already gave out enough information about it if someone decides to use the SLING METHOD of making it. It’s not as simple as it looks to be as anyone attempting to replicate it will find out.
But you will see the light after you play with it a while.


Hi Tom,


Any success with the setup, or just another dead end? If success, are you already on the patenting route, or was laziness the king? :)
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on June 28, 2020, 01:21:59 AM

Hi Tom,


Any success with the setup, or just another dead end? If success, are you already on the patenting route, or was laziness the king? :)


I did not patent it yet as I have found a better way to construct it without resorting to a sling arrangement as I described before. I am waiting on some more parts I ordered
  I will never give up on this idea.   A 45 degree inclined magnet and a single magnet bearing (by repelling) downwards with gravity on the 45 magnet is the way to go.  Construct such a motor using 4 of each magnets in a circular format and all will work out after a lot of thought on magnet placement.
Tom

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: ayeaye on June 28, 2020, 07:32:35 PM
A 45 degree inclined magnet and a single magnet bearing (by repelling) downwards with gravity on the 45 magnet is the way to go.  Construct such a motor using 4 of each magnets in a circular format and all will work out after a lot of thought on magnet placement.

Interesting that it works, as you say it does.

Then, i think it may also be possible to make the 45 degree magnets stationary, and make only the ring magnet to rotate. The magnet bearings can also be used the same as in your motor. Kind of like you put your motor upside down. Then the 45 degree magnets don't move, are not on a floating ring magnet, and can be much heavier and stronger. That may add power.

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on June 28, 2020, 09:41:29 PM
Interesting that it works, as you say it does.

Then, i think it may also be possible to make the 45 degree magnets stationary, and make only the ring magnet to rotate. The magnet bearings can also be used the same as in your motor. Kind of like you put your motor upside down. Then the 45 degree magnets don't move, are not on a floating ring magnet, and can be much heavier and stronger. That may add power.


Four 45 degree magnets spaced equally in a circular fashion on a plain wood turntable would work
You don’t need anything else under that turntable.   Plastic risers on each 45 degree magnet must be used to mount four cylinder magnets in REPEL close to the 45 degree magnets magnetic field.
Those cylinder magnets must be inside vertically mounted brass or plastic tubes and free to move up and down.
The position of the magnets inside the tubes and exactly where they feed into the 45 degree magnetic field will have to be determined  by experimenting as I have done. Use the plastic risers to mount the cylinder magnets inside the brass tubes.
Tom.           
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: ayeaye on June 28, 2020, 11:48:20 PM
Tom, some think you failed, as they cannot replicate your device. I think you found something, why else do you talk about it, knowing you, there cannot be other reason.

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on June 29, 2020, 01:04:02 AM
Tom, some think you failed, as they cannot replicate your device. I think you found something, why else do you talk about it, knowing you, there cannot be other reason.


You have to direct the cylinder magnet strait down “”VERTICALLY””  onto the very “” TOP “”of the 45 degree magnets magnetic field. ( In repel.) A little bit left or right will be the sweet spot that is needed to make this work. Nothing moves in the exact center.
Either the table will turn clockwise or counterclockwise depends on where you bond the brass tube that contains the cylinder magnet inside.
Tom
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: ayeaye on June 30, 2020, 01:34:57 PM
A little bit left or right will be the sweet spot that is needed to make this work. Nothing moves in the exact center.

Yes, this says at least one thing. Whoever wants to replicate that device, make it well adjustable. I recommend to do measurements instead, as doing it with the whole thing is much too difficult. But if you want to replicate all thing.

Like, 3D printing it and then expecting it to work, a very advanced way to do it, but in that way it will most certainly not work. 3D printing it, seeing nothing happen, and then deciding that the all thing doesn't work. You have not tried to adjust anything, and you have not measured anything, to know anything about what is going on there. Whatever, whether it can work or not, but this is certainly not a way to decide.

I will not try to replicate it, my way is doing experiments and measurements with 45 degree magnets, as this is i think where it should be started.

Yet anyway, making it upside down may increase power a lot. I understand you say it doesn't work that way, as these magnets in the tubes, etc, this is a kind of self-adjustment, and the whole thing is delicate and can work only in one way. Sure, yet there may be ways to do it.

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: skywatcher on July 02, 2020, 10:47:19 PM
As long as there is no working device in the first place, there is nothing to replicate.
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: ayeaye on July 06, 2020, 10:37:15 AM
As long as there is no working device in the first place, there is nothing to replicate.

Yes what can i do about him not providing anything that can be replicated.

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: synchro1 on July 06, 2020, 01:33:50 PM
Yes what can i do about him not providing anything that can be replicated.


Tom's just an "Old Coot" Joker!
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: ayeaye on July 06, 2020, 02:11:42 PM
Tom's just an "Old Coot" Joker!

No, we once talked a long time ago, we both understood the possible overunity of 45 degree magnets. But as he wants to patent, then he certainly doesn't really want to reveal information, considering that this is the aim it is understandable.

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: conradelektro on July 06, 2020, 05:15:29 PM
Tom's just an "Old Coot" Joker!

He must have gotten the idea from a Coot.

Greetings, Conrad
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: ayeaye on July 06, 2020, 05:38:01 PM
Yes of course forget 45 degrees magnets, aren't there enough silly things to choose from, fiep fiep

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: ayeaye on July 07, 2020, 11:19:27 AM
This coot is btw nothing compared to my rubber duck that i used to show induction

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: lumen on July 11, 2020, 12:02:53 AM
This thread made me think of a simple vector motor. The hook arm is setup like a lever to drag the connecting rod around the center cylinder magnet.

Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: jazhuyt on July 14, 2020, 10:00:52 AM
The idea is good, but it is difficult to replace the existing things in the market. The system has been formed, and the cost of promoting other things will be very high
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: magnetman12003 on July 22, 2020, 11:08:49 PM
I have even found a extremely simple way to construct a GRAVITY powered permanent magnet motor.
Uses only two powerful neo magnets in repel mode and simple hardware that can be found in Lowe’s or Home Depot are needed.  This one I won’t try to patent but will show it working after I get all the hardware together to make it.  One piece of the hardware I am buying it the key to making this motor and I am surprised that no one has figured it out yet. Will show all after finished.


Tom
Title: Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
Post by: Airstriker on September 02, 2020, 12:45:36 AM
I have even found a extremely simple way to construct a GRAVITY powered permanent magnet motor.
Uses only two powerful neo magnets in repel mode and simple hardware that can be found in Lowe’s or Home Depot are needed.  This one I won’t try to patent but will show it working after I get all the hardware together to make it.  One piece of the hardware I am buying it the key to making this motor and I am surprised that no one has figured it out yet. Will show all after finished.
Tom


Is it already finished (I mean the last design you mentioned)? Any progress with the patent?