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Author Topic: All Permanent Magnet Motor  (Read 33346 times)

Offline kolbacict

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #165 on: May 13, 2020, 07:47:58 PM »
why doesn’t it rotate What am I doing wrong?

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #165 on: May 13, 2020, 07:47:58 PM »

Offline conradelektro

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #166 on: May 13, 2020, 08:01:01 PM »
I just completed a replication of your device that I believe covers all your specs pretty closely.

Please comment on what you believe is wrong with the replication.
PS have not tried any added weights to the rods.

1. Magnetma12003 wrote that the rods should touch the 45° magnets. Therefore he added the weights.
2. And there are the plastic tumblers which allow to adjust the angle of the rods. May be 45° is not the ideal angle, it could be 40° or 50°.

Of course, I do not know whether that helps or not. And my opinion about permanent magnet motors is better not said aloud in this forum. But I am interested in the ways people try to do the impossible. Impossible things are much more interesting than known things. Everybody can learn what is known, but trying the impossible needs determination beyond the usual.

Greetings, Conrad

Offline synchro1

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #167 on: May 14, 2020, 04:03:54 PM »
The absence of a soundtrack in magnetman12003's video may conceal the sound of a hairdryer running at high speed out of view.

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #167 on: May 14, 2020, 04:03:54 PM »
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Offline kolbacict

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #168 on: May 14, 2020, 04:41:47 PM »
Quote
Impossible things are much more interesting than known things. Everybody can learn what is known, but trying the impossible needs determination beyond the usual.
the concept of this can only be obtained from our reality. In a dream, for example ...  :)

Offline ayeaye

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #169 on: May 14, 2020, 05:31:18 PM »
It is important to know what is possible and what is not. But what really requires smartness is to go beyond that.

When there is overunity and it is not greater than friction, then in that setup it is difficult to find out. Measure forces when moving, in one direction and in the other direction, see whether there is any difference. In case of perfect symmetry these forces should be exactly equal. If this difference is even great enough to be measurable.


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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #169 on: May 14, 2020, 05:31:18 PM »
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Offline magnetman12003

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #170 on: May 14, 2020, 08:31:41 PM »
1. Magnetma12003 wrote that the rods should touch the 45° magnets. Therefore he added the weights.
2. And there are the plastic tumblers which allow to adjust the angle of the rods. May be 45° is not the ideal angle, it could be 40° or 50°.

Of course, I do not know whether that helps or not. And my opinion about permanent magnet motors is better not said aloud in this forum. But I am interested in the ways people try to do the impossible. Impossible things are much more interesting than known things. Everybody can learn what is known, but trying the impossible needs determination beyond the usual.
Greetings, Conrad


Try this without using the plastic tumblers.  Take a 6 inch steel threaded bolt or rod and add some weight to it such as a group of steel washers that can be adjusted to go up or down the rod and fastened in place with nuts.   Then take the bottom of the bolt and it will attract to the 45 degree magnet you have previously mounted in your setup that freely turns with a touch.


Next you will find that the setup will spin if the bolt weight is enough and the angle you are holding the bolt at is enough.  It will continuously spin at this point.


Next put the bolt without finger touch  the same way inside a notched plastic tumbler with the lower part of the bolt in direct contact with the 45 degree magnet. The plastic tumbler should be fastened to a riser block to allow the above to happen. See photo page 11.

Offline conradelektro

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #171 on: May 15, 2020, 07:52:11 PM »
Hi Magnetman,
I just completed a replication of your device that I believe covers all your specs pretty closely.

Mine does NADA! not even a kick!

Please comment on what you believe is wrong with the replication.

Magnetman has answered but I want to add something I observed in the last 25 years following attempted permanent magnet motors:

= The permanent magnet motor needs to be started by an external force. =

Some did the starting with an electric motor (e.g. a drill) which was connected at startup (and then disconnected). One had a loaded spring which was released with a hammer.

My guess is that magnetman12003 gives his motor an initial spin by hand (and I apologize if that is not the case).

So vince, try to spin it up a bit by hand and then observe how long it takes till your replication comes to a stop. Then change the rod configuration and angle and see if it takes longer to come to a rest after an initial spin up by hand.

Greetings, Conrad

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #171 on: May 15, 2020, 07:52:11 PM »
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Offline magnetman12003

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #172 on: May 15, 2020, 08:23:24 PM »
Magnetman has answered but I want to add something I observed in the last 25 years following attempted permanent magnet motors:

= The permanent magnet motor needs to be started by an external force. =

Some did the starting with an electric motor (e.g. a drill) which was connected at startup (and then disconnected). One had a loaded spring which was released with a hammer.

My guess is that magnetman12003 gives his motor an initial spin by hand (and I apologize if that is not the case).

So vince, try to spin it up a bit by hand and then observe how long it takes till your replication comes to a stop. Then change the rod configuration and angle and see if it takes longer to come to a rest after an initial spin up by hand.

Greetings, Conrad


My setup if done the way I have shown will spin by itself without doing anything else.
My biggest problem is how to stop the spin without the motor coming apart by centrifugal force.
Be very careful in constructing my particular setup and use a excellent bonding agent such as Krazy Glue Professional grade. It’s my believe the motor will go faster and faster but sooner or later it will fly apart.  I have not reached that point yet as I am still waiting for the tumblers.


You will be quite excited if you try  holding the threaded rods by your fingers with weights on them in direct contact with the 45 degree magnet and see that in fact it will travel around and around depending on where your weights are and the angle you are holding the rod at.
The key to my setup is that the gravity weight of the threaded bolt pushes downward on the 45 degree magnet at an angle which causes the setup to spin. The spin is not caused by Magnetic action.

Tom

Offline magnetman12003

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #173 on: May 15, 2020, 10:28:35 PM »
Hi Magnetman,
I just completed a replication of your device that I believe covers all your specs pretty closely.
It has:


2 6" ring magnets
non magnetic stainless shaft
brass bushings
correct 45 degree angles
correct magnetic polarity as per your sketch
3/8" weight rods
aluminum weight rods guide tubes orriented at 45 degrees to magnets


My question to you is this.
Did you actually get this working or do you just assume it will work with this design?


Mine does NADA! not even a kick!


Please comment on what you believe is wrong with the replication.
PS have not tried any added weights to the rods.


You must have weights to the rods and also your base of 2 six inch ring magnets must allow the top ring magnet to spin freely with a finger touch. Are the rods touching the 45 degree magnet?  That must also be present.

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #173 on: May 15, 2020, 10:28:35 PM »
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Offline conradelektro

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #174 on: May 15, 2020, 10:52:32 PM »

My biggest problem is how to stop the spin without the motor coming apart by centrifugal force.
Be very careful in constructing my particular setup and use a excellent bonding agent such as Krazy Glue Professional grade. It’s my believe the motor will go faster and faster but sooner or later it will fly apart.  I have not reached that point yet as I am still waiting for the tumblers.

Tom


This is how a permanent magnet motor should behave theoretically, but I have never seen one and it should not work, again in theory.


Whenever your motor is selfrunning you should show it to people who can do measurements and are experts enough (under a nondisclosure agreement). If it really works you will find an audience. A good idea would be a second or more motors to be sure that you can replicate it yourself. All permanent magnet motors have broken down during demonstrations leaving all questions open, and one wonders why there was never a spare one.


I do not attempt a replication because there are too many varibles concerning the magnets and the setup in general.


Greetings, Conrad

Offline magnetman12003

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #175 on: May 16, 2020, 12:18:32 AM »

This is how a permanent magnet motor should behave theoretically, but I have never seen one and it should not work, again in theory.


Whenever your motor is selfrunning you should show it to people who can do measurements and are experts enough (under a nondisclosure agreement). If it really works you will find an audience. A good idea would be a second or more motors to be sure that you can replicate it yourself. All permanent magnet motors have broken down during demonstrations leaving all questions open, and one wonders why there was never a spare one.


I do not attempt a replication because there are too many varibles concerning the magnets and the setup in general.


Greetings, Conrad
The only part of my setup that works with magnet help is the floating action of the top large ceramic ring suspended by the lower large magnetic ring.  Also and very important is the weighted threaded steel rod must touch ( Atracted to) the 45 degree mounted magnet directly at a angle.


All the rest is done by gravity pulling down the steel rod weight and angle it’s positioned at so it bears downwards on the 45 degree magnet. Then that weight now will spin the free floating top ceramic magnet.
Try using your fingers with a weighted rod at various angles directly touching your free floating setups 45 degree magnet and see this for yourself.  THE LARGE FLOATING CERAMIc MAGNET WILL SPIN at some point.
If the weight on the steel rods are not heavy enough and the angle the rod is positioned at is incorrect it won’t work.  Very important to be sure the steel rod is touching the 45 degree magnet.
Check my illustrations on pages 10 and 11.


Tom
« Last Edit: May 16, 2020, 02:50:14 AM by magnetman12003 »

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #175 on: May 16, 2020, 12:18:32 AM »
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Offline Magluvin

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #176 on: May 16, 2020, 03:09:36 AM »

My setup if done the way I have shown will spin by itself without doing anything else.
My biggest problem is how to stop the spin without the motor coming apart by centrifugal force.


Tom
I had seen the one vid using the tool moving by hand to get it to spin. Is there another vid of it spinning on its own like you state here?
Thanks
Mags

Offline magnetman12003

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #177 on: May 16, 2020, 03:55:29 AM »
I had seen the one vid using the tool moving by hand to get it to spin. Is there another vid of it spinning on its own like you state here?
Thanks
Mags
 I will post a video showing it working after I get my tumblers installed.  Right now I have been bonding everything securely so the motor does not fly apart later inside my home. I might take it outside and stand a distance away.
The thoughts of getting hit by a lead ball fastened onto a steel rod scares me. 


 Will someone who has completed the basic setup try using their fingers to hold a  threaded steel rod  or bolt with its end ON the 45 degree magnet?  Rod must be weighted down.  Then set the rod at a angle to the 45 degree block magnet.
The large ceramic magnet should spin around while you are holding the rod with weight on it at some angle.


Tom

Offline Magluvin

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #178 on: May 16, 2020, 04:20:47 AM »
Unless you are guessing it will speed up to explode mode, Id just set it up by adding a bit of friction to control it. Like a non contact brake could be an Al ring suspended around the rotating magnets. It will slow it down magnetically, more and more the faster it goes, without killing off the rotation completely. Tk would call it a Magneto Kinetic Judson Damper, from the Whipmag days.  ;D   Put a diametric magnet in a dremel tool and bring a piece of al near the magnet. The dremel will slow and the al will heat up. Even a pulse motor rotor with mags, it will slow it down.
I think on these things like this these days.... If it is a very basic, open field construction, there can be only so much field force that will occur having distance from magnet poles and such. So it may not spin as fast as you suspect. Like this.... Imagine it built like a tight refined example like real electric motors are, then I would be worried about overspin and construction handling it, if it actually spins. ;) I think you will be ok.
Mags

Offline Magluvin

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #179 on: May 16, 2020, 04:24:54 AM »
Dont know why but when I separate my writingssay as separate paragraphs, when I post, it is all just jammed together. :-\

Mags

 

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