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Author Topic: All Permanent Magnet Motor  (Read 23208 times)

Offline synchro1

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #60 on: April 10, 2020, 10:34:41 AM »
Theory of propulsion: (Vector Reflection) Positioning a magnet sideways between the tube magnet stack and the ferrite ring would draw the ring to it like a "V" gate would attract movement. The "V" gate produces a "Panthom V" gate reflected in the opposite pole field of the top ring and the lower stationary ring acts as a parallel magnet and draws the top ring around.

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #60 on: April 10, 2020, 10:34:41 AM »

Offline skywatcher

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #61 on: April 10, 2020, 02:10:41 PM »
Theory of propulsion: (Vector Reflection) Positioning a magnet sideways between the tube magnet stack and the ferrite ring would draw the ring to it like a "V" gate would attract movement. The "V" gate produces a "Panthom V" gate reflected in the opposite pole field of the top ring and the lower stationary ring acts as a parallel magnet and draws the top ring around.
Why should anything move here ?  Everything tries to move from higher to lower energy potential, but there is no such potential gradient in this setup, so nothing will move at all. It doesn't matter which angular position the rotor has in respect to the stator, because the stator (ring magnet) is perfectly symmetrical so why should anything rotate ?

Offline synchro1

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #62 on: April 10, 2020, 03:44:01 PM »
Why should anything move here ?  Everything tries to move from higher to lower energy potential, but there is no such potential gradient in this setup, so nothing will move at all. It doesn't matter which angular position the rotor has in respect to the stator, because the stator (ring magnet) is perfectly symmetrical so why should anything rotate ?


It's either spinning on its own or not. If so we need to supply a reason. A shot in the dark.


Any additional theories about the propulsion welcomed.

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #62 on: April 10, 2020, 03:44:01 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #63 on: April 10, 2020, 07:25:07 PM »
Let's say we attach 4 neo cube magnets to the top ring in attraction. Would the distance between a ring in opposition increase? We are adding power to the repulsion field so the rings should separate more.


This brings us to the question of a tapering distance! I wonder if magnetman12003 has any ideas on how it works?

Offline magnetman12003

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #64 on: April 10, 2020, 09:17:41 PM »
This is a illustration of my setup with the 6 inch plastic tube correctly positioned.  The neo rod magnets are Shown in place. Clockwise rotation indicated by pointing the aluminum frame work in that direction.  A very powerful attraction downward force is delivered by the ceramic ring magnet below it. If that’s not enough the repelling of the block magnet also pushes the rod magnet downwards.  South underside of block magnet -South rod magnet end - North is the ceramic magnets topside
« Last Edit: April 11, 2020, 05:05:40 AM by magnetman12003 »

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #64 on: April 10, 2020, 09:17:41 PM »
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Offline magnetman12003

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #65 on: April 11, 2020, 02:10:58 AM »
This is the motors basic design. Shown is only one 45 degree angle for clarity.

Offline synchro1

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #66 on: April 11, 2020, 12:01:12 PM »
I precieve a tilting tendency. One thing's for sure: Conradelectro can be counted on to supply a special set of failed approaches. He will have help.


It may work upside-down. Suspending the ring only from a ball magnet bearing would help build speed.

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #66 on: April 11, 2020, 12:01:12 PM »
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Offline gyulasun

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #67 on: April 11, 2020, 01:10:49 PM »
Hi Tom,

I am trying to understand what causes the rotation for the top ring magnet versus the fixed bottom ring magnet.

I understand the repel force between the block magnet and the rod magnet and also the strong attract force between
the top ring magnet and the rod magnet.  But all these magnets are placed onto the common platform which is supposed
to rotate together with the top ring magnet, right? 
 I know the rod magnets can freely move up or down in the plastic tube. BUT I am puzzled by what makes them
move upwards? so that gravity should place them downwards again.  What I am missing? 
Thanks for sharing this interesting setup.

Gyula

Offline magnetman12003

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #68 on: April 11, 2020, 06:42:47 PM »
Hi Tom,

I am trying to understand what causes the rotation for the top ring magnet versus the fixed bottom ring magnet.

I understand the repel force between the block magnet and the rod magnet and also the strong attract force between
the top ring magnet and the rod magnet.  But all these magnets are placed onto the common platform which is supposed
to rotate together with the top ring magnet, right? 
 I know the rod magnets can freely move up or down in the plastic tube. BUT I am puzzled by what makes them
move upwards? so that gravity should place them downwards again.  What I am missing? 
Thanks for sharing this interesting setup.

Gyula
The bottom large ceramic magnet could be a lazy Susan platform. As long as it rotates.
All it does is support the free large top ceramic rotating magnet above it.
You should build this and see what I am encountering. I am surprised the rod magnets don’t shoot out of the tubes ends.
It seems the rod magnet South Pole end ( in my case) is pinched between the South Pole backside of the block magnet and the powerful North Pole downward force of the large ceramic magnet under it??

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #68 on: April 11, 2020, 06:42:47 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #69 on: April 11, 2020, 07:11:55 PM »
@magnetman12003.

That's got me in a tizzy to read that! Centripetal force. Do both rings spin simultaneously? And :

Suppose we turn it upside down and try and spin the unencumbered ring? Would that work?

Offline gyulasun

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #70 on: April 11, 2020, 07:20:31 PM »
Hi Tom,
I understood the bottom ring magnet magnetically supports the top ring magnet (makes it levitate). 

Regarding the rod magnets, why would they shoot out of the tube ends?  How that 'shooting out' force is created? 

To create such force, an assymetry should be introduced in the fields whenever the bottom end of any rod magnet 
is just covering say a quarter of a full rotational cycle (quarter because there are 4 tubes). 

Normally there is kinda flat (homogeneous) repel field between the two ring magnets (South versus South in your drawing) 
like in a normal magnetic levitation setup and this field should be distorted periodically by something to have a changing 
and thus interacting field which results in a rotational force.

This is what is not clear where this force may come from.

Thanks 
Gyula


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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #70 on: April 11, 2020, 07:20:31 PM »
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Offline synchro1

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #71 on: April 11, 2020, 08:08:41 PM »
I positioned two ceramic block magnets at 45 degree angles on a 2 inch microwave ceramic ring and got spin motion on it when I compressed it against a twin ring magnet in opposition. The ring with the magnets choose to "slip to one side" at some point of pressure.

There appeared to be a concrete flywheel around Tom's top ring. Was it Floor who first disclosed this effect?

Offline gyulasun

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #72 on: April 11, 2020, 11:47:52 PM »
...
It seems the rod magnet South Pole end ( in my case) is pinched between the South Pole backside of the block magnet
and the powerful North Pole downward force of the large ceramic magnet under it??


Hi Tom,You may have added the above sentence a few minutes later than I read the rest before it, I noticed it only now. 
No problem of course and I understand what you say but again my problem is that these fields are static and act within
the same platform above the top ring magnet (if I correctly understand your setup).

On the static fields I mean the attract and repel forces you describe , they result in positioning the rod magnets at a certain
hight above the top plate i.e. above the top ring magnet, inside the plastic tubes and the main question is what makes the
rod magnets vary their distance from the platform ?
  Unfortunately, I do not have such ring magnets at hand, and buying them is a bit difficult in such coronavirus times,
I have to wait. This is mainly why I am trying to understand the setup in the meantime, why it rotates.

Please do not catch the virus.  8)

Gyula

Offline magnetman12003

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #73 on: April 12, 2020, 01:52:45 AM »
I am 79 years old and catching  the virus would probably kill me.  So far since this started I decided to part with all info about it should I pass away suddenly.  I open sourced the info. There is a lot of questions I can’t answer yet.  Still trying to improve it.  I now think after using only one rod magnet per Each 45 Degree aluminum frame that’s powerful enough.   I show 2 rod magnets inside the plastic tubes but I am afraid to try that as the motor might blow apart with centrifugal forces acting on it.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: All Permanent Magnet Motor
« Reply #74 on: April 12, 2020, 12:58:22 PM »
Hi Tom,

would like to ask: did you always mean the 'shoot out' of the rod magnets would happen due to the
centrifugal forces manifesting over a certain rotor RPM? 

Or earlier you meant the 'shoot out' happens due to the pinched S pole of the rod magnet between the
S pole of the block magnet and the N pole of the top ring magnet? 
Or maybe both: this latter and the high RPM case?

It is okay if you cannot answer all the questions. It would be good if you could test this: 

Stop the rotor from its rotation by hand and notice the height position of the rod magnets in the tubes.
When the rotor is stationary I think the rod magnets are also at a rest position, very likely are levitating, right? 
This levitation would come from the resulting force the attract and repel forces establish as a result. 
At least, this is how I think, I may be wrong.

It also would be a good piece of info how the rod magnets behave i.e. whether they change their height 
with respect to the top platform as you slowly start rotating the rotor by your hand from a standstill position 
and cover a full rotational circle, all this by your hand. 

I believe if you safely close the top openings of the plastic tubes by a cap, then the centrifugal forces could not cause
the rod magnets fly out, should the rotor RPM go unusually high when using two rod magnets in a tube. 
And you could use two pieces of wood sticks in your hands to be able to brake the rotor by them,
thus reducing RPM even to a standstill. 

Thanks for doing this test if you agree.

Gyula

 

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