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### Author Topic: Simple and powerful principle  (Read 32118 times)

#### Willy

• Full Member
• Posts: 220
##### Re: Simple and powerful principle
« Reply #105 on: April 11, 2023, 11:56:52 PM »
It is true that for a float to enter the top tank it must minimally displace an amount
of water equal to it's weight from the top tank. I admit that is a flaw in this idea i missed.

But i have already found a solution, a workaround, a variation of the same principle.

Consider a similar design, but no valves, just a very high water tube, say 1000km
to make it dramatic. All that matters is difference of pressure on water outside
vs inside the tube.

Let's say float weighs 10kg (it's made of steel) but in the water it is made
buoyant so it's weight in water is -10kg.

So we need a force of 10kg to push it underwater and into the tube.

Entrance into the tube is just under the surface so job is quick and easy.

Easy-peasy indeed!

Don't you understand that float will rise for 1000km up all the way to the top doing work
and once it reaches the top valve is opened, float fills with water and sinks AGAIN doing
work all the way down.

So we had a -10kg weight doing work for 1000km going up and 10kg weight doing
work for 1000km going down - at a cost of momentarily pushing it underwater and
opening a small valve on it once it reaches the top.

Don't you understand how IMMENSE the energy gain is here.

Nix

I like your next concept (above).

But it requires the same amount of energy to insert a float against pressure at the bottom
of a tube of water, as it takes to push that float down against buoyance (to the bottom of the tube, from the top surface, through the water).

"It is true that for a float to enter the top tank it must minimally displace an amount
of water equal to it's weight from the top tank. I admit that is a flaw in this idea i missed."

Water is displaced down ward that is equal to the floats own volume but also greater than the floats own weight.  But I knew what you meant.

I missed that to at first.  But still it was a really cool design.

Thanks for finding it and presenting it here.

#### perpetual

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 69
##### Re: Simple and powerful principle
« Reply #106 on: April 12, 2023, 12:10:03 AM »
I like your next concept (above).

But it requires the same amount of energy to insert a float against pressure at the bottom
of a tube of water, as it takes to push that float down against buoyance (to the bottom of the tube, from the top surface, through the water).

You just witnessed a miracle, history in the making, and in a way, you were a part of it.
And you still deny it, ccc. And with what kind of silliness. What you wrote is totally ridiculous.

Do you have a slightest idea the amount of work a negative 10kg weight free falling up and
then 10kg weight free falling down does even from far far lesser height, let alone the imagined 1000km.

And how incomparably tiny is the energy needed to momentarily push that float into the tube.
Entrance into the tube is underwater as much as float is thick, say 20cm. Input is nothing.

It is ridiculous to even compare the tiny, momentary input with the long long and heavy work
it does falling up and falling down, gain is in thousands and thousands of times, in a tube so long
it would surely be in MILLIONS of times.

#### Willy

• Full Member
• Posts: 220
##### Re: Simple and powerful principle
« Reply #107 on: April 12, 2023, 12:31:49 AM »
Firstly (I am sure that you are aware) the energy of its falling is exactly equal
to the energy spent to lift it.

The energy is equal to the force      times     the distance moved.

The taller the tube the greater the pressure at its bottom.

Less force to sink it from the top, but a greater distance of travel or a greater
force to insert it but a shorter distance.  But the energy inputs are equal.

This is one of the things that makes it a tough proposition (buoyance based energy experiments).

#### perpetual

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 69
##### Re: Simple and powerful principle
« Reply #108 on: April 12, 2023, 01:00:11 AM »
Firstly, of course energy it generates by falling is exactly equal to the energy it generates
by lifting, but nothing is spent, it lifts itself by buoyancy and then non-buoyancy is induced
by simply opening a small valve and it now falls with same weight in reverse, generating
energy in both directions.

Energy aka work is force * distance moved  OR Mass * Gravity * Height.

Pressure at the bottom does not rise with height of the tube.

You cannot compare this to the ocean where you got all the surrounding water thousands
of miles away all of it contributing to the pressure and no air pressure on the bottom.
This is totally different.

Pressure at the bottom of the tube is 1 atmosphere, cause huge air pressure by far overcomes
the weight of the water in the tube.

This is the very reason it is possible to keep a column of water in the air with a small pool
of water at the base. It's all about gravity and air pressure.

If it were not so water would be at different pressure at the bottom of the tube vs in the tank
around it at the same level which is nonsensical.

It would mean if you dip your hand in the tank you would feel nothing, but if you moved it into
the opening of the tube pressure would suddenly rise immensely. This is nonsensical and
nature does not work like that. Pressure is the same at the bottom of the tube and the tank
it is sitting in.

So your whole suggestion is totally wrong.

It is easy to insert the float. Once it is pressed just below the surface in the tank it is
EFFORTLESS to push it into the tube.

And from there it lifts by itself.

Of course float should be pointed on top and bottom to reduce the water resistance.

Input is zero for all practical purposes. Gain is immense.

#### Willy

• Full Member
• Posts: 220
##### Re: Simple and powerful principle
« Reply #109 on: April 12, 2023, 01:13:06 AM »

Pressure at the bottom does not rise with height of the tube.

You cannot compare this to the ocean where you got all the surrounding water thousands
of miles away all of it contributing to the pressure and no air pressure on the bottom.
This is totally different."

The pressure at the bottom of a tank of water is not dependent upon the diameter of the tank.

A 10 meter tall, 3 centimeters in diameter pipe filled with water, has the same pressure at its bottom as does a 10 meter tall, 3,000 centimeters in diameter tank filled with water.

#### perpetual

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 69
##### Re: Simple and powerful principle
« Reply #110 on: April 12, 2023, 01:26:18 AM »
I know perfectly well pressure at the bottom of a tank of water is not dependent upon the diameter of the tank. I wrote that wrong in a hurry.

I know perfectly well width does not matter, only height.

I always give example of a lake on the mountain when talking about potential, it may be infinitely wide or just a puddle and it would have same potential cause height is all that matters, but not the same available current.

That aside, this is different from a regular tank. Very different.

Have you considered my example with a hand etc.

Here, i'll help you, do you think boy when putting stuff under the tube is fighting any pressure
higher than he experiences in the rest of the tank at that level.

https://youtu.be/rxFXsoqbfrk?t=57

Do you understand now that your claim is unrealistic.

Will you now admit you were wrong that pressure at the bottom of the tube is great and that energy to insert the float and open the small valve on the top is equal to energy float generates by falling up to the top and back down.

PS See how that pen goes up swiftly, that is pretty much how a 10kg or 100kg or 1000kg torpedo float would go, slightly slower due to bigger resistance, but not much slower. All for free.

Nix

#### perpetual

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 69
##### Re: Simple and powerful principle
« Reply #111 on: April 12, 2023, 02:24:13 AM »
Seems kitty ate his tongue.

I consider this satisfactorily proven to all reason and scientific inquiry.

Nix

#### Willy

• Full Member
• Posts: 220
##### Re: Simple and powerful principle
« Reply #112 on: April 12, 2023, 02:40:34 AM »
In order to get a float into the bottom of a tank of water (or a tube of water)

It takes the same amount of energy to insert the float at depth, as it takes to push it
down from the surface to that same depth.

Generally, less force to sink it from the top, but a greater distance of travel
or
a greater force to insert it but a shorter distance of travel.

Simplifying and ignoring friction and some other factors, these two energy inputs are equal.

1. lift float to top of tank (energy input)
2. push float to the bottom (energy input)
3. float rises to the surface (energy output)
4. Float falls exterior to the tank (energy output)

numbers 1 and 4 cancel to zero
numbers 2 and 3 cancel to zero

or

1. insert float directly into the bottom of tank (energy input)
2. float rises to the surface (energy output)
3. Float falls exterior to the tank (energy output)

numbers 1 and 2 cancel to zero

and

number 3 is free ?

or else

it requires more energy to insert the float at the bottom of the tank than it takes to push
it to the bottom of the tank from the surface.

if

it requires more energy to insert the float at the bottom of the tank than it takes to push
it to the bottom of the tank from the surface

then

the float would be ejected with more energy due to pressure at the bottom of the tank
than is the energy required to sink the float to the bottom from the surface.

1. Lift float to top of tank (energy input)
2. push float to the bottom (energy input)
3. float is ejected by pressure from the bottom of the tank (energy output)

1. Lift float to top of tank (energy input)
2. float sinks on its own, to the bottom of the tank (energy output)
3. float is ejected by pressure from the bottom of the tank (energy output)

in which case, the float can definitely be ejected at the bottom of the tank
with more energy than was required to sink it to the bottom of the tank.

also then

it requires more energy to insert the float at the bottom of the tank than it takes to
sink it to the bottom.

what if the float has the same density as water ?
what if the float has 1/2 the density of water ?

#### perpetual

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 69
##### Re: Simple and powerful principle
« Reply #113 on: April 12, 2023, 03:31:56 AM »
I gave you the example with the hand in the tank.

I helped you with video example, i asked you do you think boy experiences greater pressure straight below the tube compared to rest of the tank on the same level.

I asked you do you still claim pressure is great at the bottom of the tube.

You have not addressed/answered any of this, you are again expounding from the wrong premise and thus you tangle yourself in horrible confusions upon confusions and based on them you come to wrong "conclusion" that input is equal to output.

You are now really wasting my time with nonsense.

Understand, this is not a regular tank, this is a tank with closed top and open bottom which does not spill out due to the fact air presses on the water it is immersed in from all sides equally with immense force while from the top of the tube there is no pressure at all since there is no air.

Surrounding air pressure also eliminates the pressure at the bottom that would be present in regular tank. And this is the key. So here, unlike the regular tank, float can be inserted at the bottom FOR FREE, that is, input is so minimal it is nothing.

Nothing is equal here. Input is absolutely minimal, zero for all practical purposes. ALL work done by float free falling up and then free falling down is completely free work.

Input is thousands of times smaller than output.

I will ask you again, do you still claim pressure at the bottom of the tube is greater than in rest of the tank which is 1 atmosphere.

Nix

#### Willy

• Full Member
• Posts: 220
##### Re: Simple and powerful principle
« Reply #114 on: April 12, 2023, 12:33:05 PM »
Very cool

I was writing and posting as you were also.  I did not see your post until
I had already posted my last post. It happens that way some times.

Your design is very cool indeed.

Problems to over come.

1. Removing the float from the top of the tank will be against a vacuum or
negative pressure relative to the pressure outside of the tube, but this can be
overcome by closing a gate valve across the bottom of the tube after the float enters.
Then allowing the same volume of water as is the volume of the float, into the tube
(at the top of the tube) to enter the tube as the float is extracted from the tube.

2. What ever the height of the tube, the energy expended in lifting a volume of water
equal to the float's volume, to that height, must be subtracted from the gain of the float's rising
in order to keep the tube full during successive cycles of operation.

3. If the tube is tall enough the vacuum against the top of the tube, (caused by the weight of
the water hanging in the tube) will cause the water to boil (even at room temperature).

Still and all, very creative thinking on your part.  Nice !

#### perpetual

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 69
##### Re: Simple and powerful principle
« Reply #115 on: April 12, 2023, 02:20:47 PM »
I know it happens sometimes, but it does not hold water (pun intended)
My post was posted at 01:26AM and your at 02:40AM, 1h and 14 minutes later.

That aside, "very cool" is a nice compliment but does not cut it, i admitted openly i was wrong about the first principle, i want you to admit the same for both main claims you made.

1) that pressure is great at the bottom of the tube
2) that input is equal to output

There are no problems to overcome, especially not what you wrote.

1) No. There is no removing float from the top, what are you talking about. Float is sunken at the top by remote control by opening a small valve and it comes back down to the bottom. A momentary radio signal is enough to activate a small motor for 1 second. Energy input is nothing.

2) No. You still don't get it, no energy is expended to lift the float, IT LIFTS ITSELF. Of course it will displace it's volume of water from the tube but as i have proven since pressure at the bottom is one atmosphere it is effortless to insert the float, thus energy to displace this water is nothing. And the moment we pull it out the tube and tank, that water will return to the tube. Besides, float does not have to be taken out, once it falls back down to the bottom, it's air chamber is simply pumped with air, since ambient pressure is 1 atmosphere, work is nothing.

3) No. Pressure of the water is 1 atmosphere everywhere in the tube, bottom to the top, there is no vacuum, no boiling.

You only see problems that do not exist.

Again, pressure at the bottom of the tube is 1 atmosphere as it is at the top of the tube. With a diving gear one could enter the tube and dive up as far as he likes with no ill effects.

It is effortless to insert the float and effortless to sink it at the top.
It is doing free work free falling up to the top and free falling back down.

Now, i want to hear your admission on both points - for pressure at the bottom and input/output energy. Is it so hard to admit, i did it, you can too.

Nix

#### perpetual

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 69
##### Re: Simple and powerful principle
« Reply #116 on: April 12, 2023, 02:57:04 PM »
This is forbidden science, it took me 5min of googling to find an experiment like this, almost all show that upside down glass with paper trick.

If we imagine the bottle below is like Burj Khalifa 828 meters aka 2716.54 feet tall it is hopefully clear to everyone by now, pressure at the bottom is just the same as if it were 1cm tall. It's one atmosphere.

And if float is pushed into it, it will float to the top and once up there it is allowed to fill up and it will fall to the bottom, doing work going up and down.

#### Willy

• Full Member
• Posts: 220
##### Re: Simple and powerful principle
« Reply #117 on: April 12, 2023, 03:39:58 PM »

#### perpetual

• Jr. Member
• Posts: 69
##### Re: Simple and powerful principle
« Reply #118 on: April 12, 2023, 03:48:33 PM »
So will you admit you were wrong finally.

Nix

#### Willy

• Full Member
• Posts: 220
##### Re: Simple and powerful principle
« Reply #119 on: April 12, 2023, 03:50:53 PM »
A Quote from perpetual
"1) No. There is no removing float from the top, what are you talking about. Float is sunken at the top by remote control by opening a small valve and it comes back down to the bottom. A momentary radio signal is enough to activate a small motor for 1 second. Energy input is nothing."
The end of that quote

So then air exits the float and water eneter the float. There is now a volume of air at the top of the tube equivalent to the volume of water inside the float.

Assuming that this gives the float a negative buoyancy rather than a neutral or positive buoyancy, the float then sinks.

There is now a volume of air at the top of the tube which is equivalent to the volume of water inside the float.