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Author Topic: Hydrogen as a Bouyant Energy Source.  (Read 2958 times)

Offline sm0ky2

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Hydrogen as a Bouyant Energy Source.
« on: December 29, 2019, 09:30:42 PM »
The following system is designed to utilize a change in pressure between the liquid phase of water
and the gas phase of Hydrogen (H/H2) and Oxygen (O/O2) in a pressurized electrolysis vessel.


In an ideal reversible fuel cell (where E in ~= E out) electrolysis is performed.
The gas products are separated into two vessels, one of hydrogen and one of oxygen.


System tolerances are tested and a maximum vessel pressure is determined.


The Hydrogen line is fitted with 2 pressure valves, the oxygen line with one.
And both storage tanks are attached.
Attached to the second hydrogen line is the system drawn below.


Where-in a known volume of Hydrogen gas at system pressure is used to fill a balloon.
The balloon is of sufficient size that, when inflated fully, has a buoyant force capable of
lifting mass x.


For simplicity the height is restricted to within a reasonable height.


Such that the Hydrogen balloon lifts mass x to height h.
At which point a valve transmits a portion of the hydrogen gas into a
gas line leading to another storage tank below.


The bouyant force of the system has decreased significantly,
such that the gravitational force is increased in the downward vector.
Both balloon and mass x now drop height h
We multiply this times buoyancy adjusted gravitational force
and output energy E.
At the expense of a drop in pressure from the vessel pressure down to
the pressure defined by the tensile strength of the balloon and the change in
a volume of gas necessary to facilitate the change in buoyancy.


See illustration:


(Edit coming in a few minutes when I draw a sketch)


Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Hydrogen as a Bouyant Energy Source.
« Reply #1 on: December 29, 2019, 10:11:44 PM »
This is a rough sketch of the apparatus:


Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Hydrogen as a Bouyant Energy Source.
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2019, 12:56:21 AM »
a Generator can be attached so that the falling mass (m + balloon + hoses)
produces energy according to the equation:  E=mfh
Where f is the buoyancy adjusted force of gravity.



Offline kajunbee

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Re: Hydrogen as a Bouyant Energy Source.
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2019, 11:39:32 AM »
There was a question brought up on another forum as to whether a balloon expanding as it ascends through water accelerates. And whether this would give more out than in. A concrete answer was never given, but according to Wikipedia a partially inflated bag does accelerate as external pressure drops and it expands. Whether this translates into a gain I could not say. But I don't think it will, what might appear to be a gain is part of the energy required to inflate it at depth. But using a combustible gas instead of air adds another dimension to things. You could extract some amount of energy with lift of the gas and consume it as it descends. I wouldn't be able to crunch the numbers. But your a pretty sharp cookie and shouldn't have trouble with the math and coming up with something realistic.. I'm having some brain f**ts on how this could possibly work, but I'll wait till I've thought it through first.
Search lifting bag on Wikipedia if your interested.

This forum has been around awhile, so I'm sure this dead horse has been beaten before.

Offline kajunbee

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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Hydrogen as a Bouyant Energy Source.
« Reply #5 on: December 30, 2019, 05:05:27 PM »
I’m not talking about the balloon expanding as it rises through the air.
The “reasonable” distance is much smaller than that.


I am talking about utilizing the difference in pressure between
1 ATM and the pressure of the liquid-to-gas phase change.
and using that to expand the balloon creating a useful buoyant force.


All of the gas is recycled.

Offline kajunbee

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Re: Hydrogen as a Bouyant Energy Source.
« Reply #6 on: December 30, 2019, 05:25:32 PM »
I get the general idea, but I'm unable to view your sketches from my phone. Once I see them I'll be able to better understand.

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Hydrogen as a Bouyant Energy Source.
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2019, 12:32:59 AM »
When electrolysis occurs, the phase change results in a tremendous change in pressure.
This far exceeds the pressure required at the input of a fuel cell to produce electricity.
This is the low pressure boundary of the system.
Pressure in the secondary Hydrogen tank (p2) is higher than the lower boundary.
Pressure in the other 2 tanks is the upper pressure limit.
And the balloon operates between the 2 pressures.
This defines the amount of lift or buoyant force you can gain.
The height of the lifter support defines the energy value of one cycle.
This energy is “overunity”, as the electrical energy to sustain the process is still
trapped in the separated gasses.

Offline kolbacict

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Re: Hydrogen as a Bouyant Energy Source.
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2019, 09:43:52 AM »
And at what pressure will gas evolution cease?If you put the cell in a steel bomb that can withstand thousands of atmospheres.Has anyone conducted such experiments?

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Hydrogen as a Bouyant Energy Source.
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2019, 11:54:17 PM »
And at what pressure will gas evolution cease?If you put the cell in a steel bomb that can withstand thousands of atmospheres.Has anyone conducted such experiments?




No clue, but it can break Tupperware




Offline kajunbee

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Re: Hydrogen as a Bouyant Energy Source.
« Reply #10 on: January 01, 2020, 06:20:47 AM »
https://www.osti.gov/servlets/purl/926321-lTUJnC/

Kolbacit, I do not have any experience with water electrolysis. But I am aware that it can be dangerous to pressurize the system. But I did some searches on high pressure electrolysis. In the link provided only one side is pressurized. It operates with a differential pressure of several hundred pounds. As I said before I do not have any experience with this technology and your probably already aware of it.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2020, 02:11:21 PM by kajunbee »

Offline kajunbee

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Re: Hydrogen as a Bouyant Energy Source.
« Reply #11 on: January 01, 2020, 08:09:35 AM »
I don't believe Smokys talking extremely high pressures though.
« Last Edit: January 01, 2020, 01:42:13 PM by kajunbee »

Offline Corton

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Re: Hydrogen as a Bouyant Energy Source.
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2020, 02:45:38 AM »
The picture attachments are HUGE and are difficult to understand due to having to scroll.

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Hydrogen as a Bouyant Energy Source.
« Reply #13 on: January 02, 2020, 02:57:10 AM »
Sorry about the pictures , it is hard to resize them on my phone
You are probably better off as my artwork sucks


The pressure of the system is dependent upon the tolerances of
each component.


The tensile strength of the balloon and its’ elasticity will be the
governing factors over the pressure in the buoyant system.


The pressure of the electrolysis system (high side) will obviously
be at least greater than the balloon, as to facilitate inflation.


The low pressure side will operate at a pressure determined by the
balloon and the point at which the system is no longer buoyant.
Increasing pressure on the low side increases the buoyant-gravitational
constant but decreases the pressure difference
between high and low pressure tanks and more volume of gas is
lowered in pressure over time.


It’s a sort of trade off.
As long as the low pressure side is high enough to operate the fuel cell
~100% of the electrical energy can be reobtained in addition to the
energy gained from the buoyant generation system.
Think of it like the Hindenburg on a sliding rod so it only carries its’
cargo up and down.