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Author Topic: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment  (Read 14259 times)

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #60 on: January 09, 2020, 02:11:06 PM »
We tried it before, now I have tried it again. It does not hold, it sticks.It has been manufactured for two years

May be difficult in that way. Two bearings as on my photo above, each made of 4 magnets, may be more stable.


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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #61 on: January 09, 2020, 02:45:24 PM »
Measurements of the strengths of the magnets used in the experiment. This is not important and the strengths of the ceramic magnets can be easily found by their dimensions, but if anyone wants to know.

The force of separation between the small magnet and a small disc magnet was 2.3 N. The force of separation between two small disc magnets was 1.8 N.

The force of separation between the big magnet and a small disc magnet was 1.6 N. The force of separation between the big magnet and the small magnet was 2.6 N. At that the small disc magnets always attracted to the edge of the big disc magnets.

The force of separation between two big disc magnets was 5.0 N.

Again, the small disc magnets were ceramic magnets 10 mm in diameter and 5 mm thick, and the big disc magnets were ceramic magnets 25 mm in diameter and 5 mm thick. If this may help.


Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #62 on: January 10, 2020, 02:29:40 PM »
We tried it before, now I have tried it again. It does not hold, it sticks.It has been manufactured for two years
.Jumps off and attracts.Only a gyroscope or use electricity.


It is real finicky and placement/distances of the magnets are not
going to be perfectly symmetrical.
Also, the way you spin it can cause it to jump off if not careful.


I’m not sure what use it has other than a toy. I haven’t found a way
to attach a drive shaft without the 1-ended support.
The force on the shaft or belt pulley destroys it.


Perhaps a two-belt system where the magnetic repulsion gives the belts tension?
(shrug)


Back to this angled magnet thing:


Solid disks makes this a lot easier: (only one field)
To the left of the interaction point magnetic density increases
as you approach the pole. (Peak is at the corner very close to your point)
To the right, magnetic density decreases as the field expands
(a secondary lower peak at ~ 1/4 length of the magnet)
Then it approaches 0 at the meridian.
This will occur in two forms with your stack, one for each magnet, and
a larger (less dense) field of the whole stack.
Density at the poles increases with more magnets in the stack.


The combined field of the stack (at your point of interaction) will behave
similar to a single magnet (solid cylinder or disk)


At the peak: (which is just inside the corners on the flat pole face)
you will have the greatest magnetic density.
The vectored force will try to align the other pole such that the density
is equal on all sides (self centering effect)
At this location, the force will change direction and oppose any change in location
this is easiest observed with magnetic attraction, but can also be observed in repulsion
when you apply a pressure to force the magnet to this point. (inverse)


If you map the field lines with filings or a magnetic viewer you get a visible representation
of the field density gradient. In short, there are more lines to the left of your point
and less lines to the right (per distance/volume increment)
Turning the larger magnet slightly more vertical will cause the centering effect to be more
prominent.
The actual vector of the forces will come in one or two forms.
Depending on the particular method of creating the magnet.
Magnets made by the first method will center in the middle of the pole.
Magnets made by the second method (inductive) will center in a ring
around the pole center. (the location depends on the active state of the magnet/variant)






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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #62 on: January 10, 2020, 02:29:40 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #63 on: January 10, 2020, 02:35:54 PM »
Magnets that are made by the thermal process
(and thermo-inductive)
will align more ‘true’. The Curie temperature relaxes
the flux and allows more atom clusters to align.


Magnets formed by cold induction or by another magnet
will only have partial alignment, and display active state
characteristics. Fluctuations will occur in different locations
within the magnetic material dependent upon its’ active state.
Interacting with these fluctuations can change the active state
and this change the physical location of the fluctuations within the
material. (This effect was exploited by John Searl)
Many magnets that have been cut or broken can also acquire
active state characteristics.


Many ring magnets are formed as cylinders, then sliced.
These magnets, when you put a round magnet outside it and
roll it around: will acquire fluctuation points on its’ surface.
These points will change location when you roll the other magnet
around the ring.


In your stack you can expect to find the most fluctuation points near
the 1/4 distance from either pole (peaks).
Their location around the circumference will be variant.
You can observe the field density with your viewer before and after
interaction and see how the lines change physical location and the
fluctuations change spots.


By rotating the stack (keeping angle the same) your viewer can show
you the points at the pole peak as well. Though not as prominent, you
can still see “more lines” in some locations than others leading out of the
pole circumference. Your scale most likely will not show you much change
in force when you spin the stack of lower magnets, but a sensitive compass
or magnometer will.


Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #64 on: January 10, 2020, 03:00:25 PM »
Assuming a consistent force for experiment:
(ie: don’t move the lower stack between tests)
Maintaining the angle of approach - moving towards or away
from the stack will give you different measurements at different
points. Record the distances and measurements.


This way you can determine a “force gradient” over distance.
Not just change in force between point A and point B.
But changes in force at points A1, A2, A3, etc. leading to B.
Take a change in force from say A1 to A2:
The difference between them is your change in Energy.
(caused by the motion)
The + or - sign of this change will be the direction of motion.
+ energy towards the magnet, - energy away from it.
(from our perspective)


The magnitude of the changes can be added up to get a
total change in Energy between A and B.
This change is a proportional conversion of PE to KE or
vice versa.
The energy input or output is the cause or result of this change.
(in your test this is you physically moving the magnet within the field)

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #64 on: January 10, 2020, 03:00:25 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #65 on: January 10, 2020, 03:04:41 PM »
Just out of curiosity:
The force measured between magnets:::


Was this the ‘break away’ force?
Meaning the reading on the scale when
the magnets are stuck together then forced
apart?


Or is this the maximum “pull force” when they
are brought to (not quite) touching?

It’s not going to affect the calculations much,
because a fairly accurate proportionality can be
established by your numbers. We don’t necessarily need to know the
magnitudes involves.


 



Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #66 on: January 10, 2020, 03:15:22 PM »
As long as the measurements were taken at the same distance
You can safely assume the proportionality to be consistent at
any distance. (margin of error being less than that of our equipment)


The actual magnitudes of the field, while not known, in most cases, will
maintain the same proportions.
How true this is in theory and practice is material dependent for permanent magnets.
But for the most part your numbers are valid enough to set up a gradient scale.
Then compare to your springs for verification.




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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #66 on: January 10, 2020, 03:15:22 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #67 on: January 10, 2020, 03:18:29 PM »
Was this the ‘break away’ force?

It is the minimal force by which the magnets attracted pole to pole, separate. To measure it, i put a thin cardboard ribbon (one cut from the cardboard matchbox) around the magnet, with holes in it, to attach the scales hook. Then i put the magnet on the pole of another magnet. Then i pulled with scales, as long as the magnet separated from the other magnet. It is that this separation force is very exact, because whenever that force is reached, the force rapidly decreases, and the spring of the scales pulls the magnet completely off the other magnet. I learned to do that in a plastic bag, so the magnets will not fly away.


Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #68 on: January 10, 2020, 03:28:47 PM »
moving towards or away
from the stack will give you different measurements at different
points. Record the distances and measurements.

Yes in my video i did exactly that. That is, all that is necessary is to move the magnet by small increments, then every time stop the scales. The distance moved and the scales reading can then be seen from the video. Then i calculated energy for all such small movements, by multiplying the force by the distance, and summed up all the energies, getting the energy at one side.

Another thing is, it is equally important to measure forces when the scales stand still, and when the scales move. Because in both cases, the friction force is to the opposite directions. I did that too, but could only properly measure the force when moving, when moving though all the measurable distance. I did the calculations too, considering the friction, and calculated friction, though with the accuracy the friction could been up to two times more.


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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #68 on: January 10, 2020, 03:28:47 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #69 on: January 10, 2020, 03:30:16 PM »
To know the change in energy of your magnet system you measure
all of the changes in energy from point A to point B.
It doesn’t matter if you are forcing the magnets apart
or holding them back from pulling together.


At the instant of measurement:
There is no change in Energy.
The change happens from the motion.


You can know how much energy it was if you have the variables
Like if you know the acceleration and the difference in PE
You know how much energy went into the field interaction and how much
went into the spring. (it’s about half)


If you know the changes in PE at every infinite point between them (sample rate)
Then you know the same thing. (in this manner time falls out of the equation)


But a change in PE between only two points is indeterminate.
Just like if we broke down the change between any 2 points in our
infinite sample rate. The change, although very small between those points,
is not determinant without knowing the rate of change.
This is the actual acceleration placed on the smaller magnet by the larger one.


Taking more samples over a distance narrows down the total sum of change in PE.
This sum adds up to the sum of changes in KE.
Which is exactly the sum of change in forces in the spring.
(minus heat, stress/strain, and any internal friction inside the clear tube)
And the total (+/- sum) change in both energies is the change in energy of your system.



Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #70 on: January 10, 2020, 03:38:13 PM »
I don’t want to make you read this whole lesson
but the first section pretty much gives a summary
of the problem.
Which is why I originally asked
 “what your were trying to measure”.

http://www.brynmawr.edu/physics/courses/109/lectures/SpringScales2.pdf



Measuring acceleration is done while they are moving.
Which requires a time-based perspective.


Measuring (magnetic weight?) happens when they are still.

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #70 on: January 10, 2020, 03:38:13 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #71 on: January 10, 2020, 03:48:03 PM »
In short, there are more lines to the left of your point
and less lines to the right (per distance/volume increment)

I'm glad that you agree.

I can see from iron filings, that there are also somewhat less field lines at the side, but that's all i see, there may be more to look.

I really tried to measure the asymmetry at the top of the pole, where are less field lines at the center. But with my iron ut, the forces were not great enough to measure.

To still measure overunity, i decided to measure it linearly with a small magnet, with the big magnet tilted 45 degrees. Which i did. The result confirmed my other experiment, where magnets were also tilted in that way. This is a different asymmetry than the one that i wanted to measure before. Yet it is about the same, the density of the field around the pole varies, and is not completely spherical. In that case, due to how the field lines go to the other pole.


Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #72 on: January 10, 2020, 03:51:59 PM »
Measuring (magnetic weight?) happens when they are still.

Yes by that, i measured "magnetic weights" and distances. But i also measured the force during movement, by moving through all the field. In order to measure friction.

What concerns measurement, this experiment is too difficult to do, by separately measuring the force and distance, at all a number of points. Thus the solution is to just move the scales by small increments, away from the neutral point, and stop the scales for a moment every time. Which i did. The forces and distances can then be measured from the video.

It would be desirable to measure forces when moving, from more points too. But the problem, it takes time until the spring of the scales would stretch enough to get force equal to the measured force. Thus i could only properly measure during the movement, when moving through all the field.

I'm not so great experimenter, i'm more like a theoretical thinker like you. Doing things by my own hands is not my desire. I'm sure that some others can make it much more beautiful. But i had to do the experiment, because no one had done that before.

I named the experiment asymmsurf, meaning asymmetry on the surface. Because the small magnet was on the surface of a lid of the box. But it also sounds like surfing the asymmetry of the magnetic field. Which sounds good.


Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #73 on: January 10, 2020, 05:20:20 PM »
That’s why I was suggesting using a constant force
Such as a counterweight of known weight (measured
on the scale in N)


And using the force from gravity on the weight to move
the magnet. We know that gravity is constant.
And we can determine the leverage of the pulley.
So the measurement will be solely the changes in
magnetic acceleration.
Not any variance in the pull of your hand.

Also you can mark the pulley, and have a 2nd time reference.
by dividing the rotation rate by the circumference.



Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #74 on: January 10, 2020, 05:34:16 PM »
That’s why I was suggesting using a constant force
Such as a counterweight of known weight (measured
on the scale in N)

Then how do you measure, and what do you measure? And how you then calculate the energy?


 

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