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Author Topic: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment  (Read 13943 times)

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #45 on: January 08, 2020, 02:49:36 PM »
So,
If I pull with 1Kg of force for 1 meter in half a second
This is the same acceleration as if I pull it in 1 second?
No, it is not. It is twice as fast.


In the half sec pull the acceleration is twice as fast.
It is accelerating 1kg @ 2m/s/s for 1m
Vs the 1 sec pull that accelerates 1kg @ 1m/s/s for 1m


You cannot have energy without time.
Convert it any way you want to.
Time is always in the equation.


If you negate time (as with a magnetic force) you have only
a timeless quantity: similar to weight.
Weight is not the energy imparted on you by gravity.
This only happens when you fall.
Your weight is only a force/pressure, not an acceleration force. Which is why it is in Lbs or Kg.



Connect your N meter spring scale to a normal weight scale
and move it to the reading your magnet gives you.
Now you have an accurate value of what you are measuring.
A pressure/force, in Lbs., timeless.
 (Force measured in this way is not really force, also a spaceless dimension, so pressure is not the right term either)



Gravity has an inherent time constant.


Magnetism does not. Magnetic acceleration is mass dependent
and also depends on changes in the field, and direction of motion.
This time constraint must be measured or calculated to determine the acceleration.


Without acceleration you only have a constant pressure applied to the object.
it is the “weight” placed on that object by the magnetic field.


To imply an energy quotient to a force, there must be acceleration.
movement.
Distance over a time.


At no point can you just choose to ignore time.
Even in versions of the equation where time is not seen,
it is embedded into the variables. (such as acceleration)


Start with the energy value, and work the equation backwards
derive the time mathematically.


If there is movement, there is velocity. Distance / time
Change in velocity from no movement to movement over time
is acceleration. distance / time / time


Now take a 1Kg hunk of metal and move it 1 meter in 1 second
and watch your scales.


E=mc^2
E=mass x acceleration
E= mass x velocity x velocity [E=mass x distance/time x distance/time]
E= mass x distance / time / time


E does not = mass.
E does not = weight.


Magnetic fields are measured by strength. Not by energy.
The force is derived from the strength of the two interacting fields.
In your case these are the magnetic field and the secondary field induced
in the nut.


Movement of the nut changes the potential energy of the system.
Because the secondary field changes location within the magnetic field.
The field interaction equations handle the strength of the fields and give a
time-based acceleration force between them. If one field is fixed in space,
the force is applied to the movable field.


This is an acceleration: distance /time / time.
Which can be used to derive the final velocity after time x.
If you know the strength of the fields you can determine both
the potential energy change in the system caused by your motion
and the change in kinetic energy when you release the tension.


Knowing only the pressure at one location, and not having the other information
you cannot even calculate the energy.


The reading on your scale in the way you are trying to use it
is giving you a timeless value.
Plot individual points, and the scale readings
across a distance, with a set time interval of the motion.


Record the scales and play it back frame by frame for 1 second.
(however many frames per second your camera allows)


Fill in the equations and compare this to what you previously posted ^^^












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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #46 on: January 08, 2020, 03:03:36 PM »
So,
If I pull with 1Kg of force for 1 meter in half a second
This is the same acceleration as if I pull it in 1 second?

No, but it is the same energy. If with the same force it moves twice as fast, then there is likely much less mass.

> E=mass x acceleration

No,  force = mass x acceleration , not energy.


Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2020, 03:09:59 PM »
The experiment itself proclaims that the forces are not the same at every distance.
Change in distance results in a change in the force of the field interactions.
There is a different acceleration at every distance (when one or more fields are not fixed).
If there is no motion, there is no energy.


You DO have a set value of energy stored in the spring.
But to know what this is, you need to know the field strength of the interacting magnets.
and the mass of the objects being moved
 (we can ignore  the mass and motion of the spring for simplicity, since it moves itself to equilibrium)


The potential energy stored in the spring comes from YOU.
You placed that “energy” into the scales when you performed the experiment.
This is the energy it took your hand to pull the spring to that distance.
The field holding the spring at that reading is motionless at that point.
And is not accelerating.
The change in energy held in the spring occurred WHILE it was moving.


I will compound this further by stating you have no idea how much “extra energy”
your hand put into the spring above what was required to cause the motion.
You can’t “feel” your hand’s rate of acceleration.
You know there is an amount of potential energy stored in the spring
And you know that this can be equated to the same value of gravitational force required to
cause the same reading in a vertical plane.
So a comparison of the scales at a set measurement gives you a mass x gravity
And in this manner you know that 1N is 1N when it is stored in the spring.


For the purpose of the experiment you can glue the mass to the table.
and pull your springs to match the same reading.
You know there is 1N stored in the spring, but you may have used 2N to do that.
You don’t know because you did not measure the acceleration.
You only measured the final force reading on the scales.






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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #47 on: January 08, 2020, 03:09:59 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #48 on: January 08, 2020, 03:27:53 PM »
Ok, whatever, do your own calculations based on the video of the experiment, if you like. The video just shows what happens when you pull that magnet. But don't do that wrong. You know about science surprisingly lot, but please learn some elementary things about physics. Just take some time for that. I clearly showed where you were wrong. Please don't understand it wrongly, it doesn't make me happy to show that i'm smarter. But it will make me glad if you don't misunderstand.

See there, work  W = F * s , and it is energy, measured in the units of energy, F is force, s is distance  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Work_(physics) .


Offline kolbacict

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2020, 05:05:06 PM »
Well, this is what I have. But without a mechanical support at one point it does not work.
Or a spinning top. :)
https://youtu.be/ya1r--aSYiY

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #49 on: January 08, 2020, 05:05:06 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #50 on: January 08, 2020, 05:34:33 PM »
Follow the link in the first sentence of your own link
This will tell you what Force is.


Newton’s second law states that the motion is unhindered.
This is key to understanding what force is.
When motion IS hindered the result is pressure, stress, strain
on the physical materials. The variables necessary to determine
the energy involved are not available in your experiment.
There is no acceleration when there is no relative movement.


The instantaneous value read on your scale applies to that point in the field.
There is an acceleration potential, but that is hindered in the experiment.
 
Try to follow:
At distance X you measure 1N.
This a force applied to your scale by the field strength AT that point.
at distance X^2, the field strength is 1/4 of its’ original value.
In the space between X <-> X^2 the force changes with distance from X.


The actual Force on the magnet F = (change in) (m * B)
Where m is the magnet moment of the magnet, and B is the field strength
at the location measured. Here you see the changing potential energy  at every point between
the two points within the field. These energies can be then summed to get your total.
In this manner you can measure the true energy, irrespective of time.
(up to a degree of accuracy defined by your increments of measure)
As potential (not kinetic) energy.




I will attempt to give you another way of measuring so that your scales can work for your experiment.


Suspend the scales by the tension on the nut/hook
and a string that is wrapped on a pulley connected to a ~0.98Kg weight.
This will calibrate your opposition force.
Zero the scale by holding the hook in place and allowing the weight to set the 1N value.
Now you have the force of gravity applying constant resistance to the magnetic field.
Take several measurements from the starting point to the ending point.
Then plot the change in potential energy over distance by the change in force at each point.


Here you do not need a clock, because you are measuring a change in potential energy. (timeless)


Your field has an integral force. The acceleration is different between every chosen pair of points.
(assuming the value of distance changes between them)
as it accelerates through the field the value of acceleration changes with distance.
When you measure the “pull” on a spring, you are only measuring one location.
Irrespective of time. There can be no energy at only this point.
The energy is in the potential between two points.


Technically speaking, gravity also changes with distance from the earth,
But we can consider it to be “constant” at our human altitudes for the purpose of this experiment.






Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #51 on: January 08, 2020, 05:36:51 PM »
Well, this is what I have. But without a mechanical support at one point it does not work.

Try to make the axis shorter or move the stationary magnets more left and right. Then the axis should sit in the cavity, and maybe you can get rid of the support. Even with support though, the friction of it is very low.


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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #51 on: January 08, 2020, 05:36:51 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #52 on: January 08, 2020, 05:37:08 PM »
Well, this is what I have. But without a mechanical support at one point it does not work.
Or a spinning top. :)
https://youtu.be/ya1r--aSYiY


To make it work without a support:
Place two more ring magnets outside of each end
to do the opposite of what the first sets do.
This will stabilize the rotor on the outside and keep it
from flying off.

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #53 on: January 08, 2020, 05:55:08 PM »
No, but it is the same energy. If with the same force it moves twice as fast, then there is likely much less mass.

> E=mass x acceleration

No,  force = mass x acceleration , not energy.




sorry i get flustered when I type too fast.
My brain took the derivative and just wrote that down....


That should read something more like mass x the final velocity after acceleration
the point is, Time is accounted for by the equation.
Without the time integral, the closest we can get is to measure the potential between an
infinite number of points across the distance. And use a sub-equivalent conversion of
PE to KE. and there are many reasons we will never achieve the “ideal situation” of
converting 100% of the energy by experiment to agree with our theory.
It is close enough for us to use, but is not a true representation of the energy.
Magnetic fields don’t have time.
Every representation of time is due to masses and field strengths which are not known.
(you could weigh your nut but you don’t know the inductance, the magnetic moment after
it is magnetized, or the strength of the two combined fields.)




I should also point out that there is a quantity of energy used to induce a magnetic field
in the nut. And the energy required to do this changes also with distance.
If you apply Maxwell’s equations you find that this change in energy is the cause of your
assymetry. And total field energy has never changed, except by the quantity you placed into it
while positioning the nut.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #53 on: January 08, 2020, 05:55:08 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #54 on: January 09, 2020, 04:59:24 AM »
This small magnet weighs 3 g, if you ever want to know. But for these calculations there is no need to know the weight, neither time.


Offline telecom

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #55 on: January 09, 2020, 05:01:30 AM »
Distances moved, and for each distance the force to the magnet. A distance multiplied by that force is energy. Calculate energy for all distances moved, and sum all these energies, this is energy at one side.

Ok, that drawing again, it didn't look so nice previous time. The small magnet there is at the neutral position. Left and right from the neutral position on that drawing, is what i mean by left and right. I found by measurements that energy is greater at the left side. 13.14 mJ at the left side and 5.15 mJ at the right side (without friction).
Just to clarify, on your diagram, a smaller magnet is a magnet or a nut?
Can you plz provide approximate dimensions of your setup?
Thanks.

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #55 on: January 09, 2020, 05:01:30 AM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #56 on: January 09, 2020, 05:12:45 AM »
Just to clarify, on your diagram, a smaller magnet is a magnet or a nut?
Can you plz provide approximate dimensions of your setup?
Thanks.

Sure. The setup is as on the drawing below.

The small magnet is two ceramic disc magnets 10 mm in diameter and 5 mm thick, one on the other, on a small piece of thin cardboard.

The big magnet below is 8 ceramic disc magnets 25 mm in diameter and 5 mm thick, one on the other.


Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #57 on: January 09, 2020, 05:22:08 AM »
Solid disks or ring magnets?




Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #58 on: January 09, 2020, 05:25:43 AM »
Solid disks or ring magnets?

Disc magnets, that is solid, not rings.


Offline kolbacict

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #59 on: January 09, 2020, 01:19:31 PM »
Quote
To make it work without a support:
Place two more ring magnets outside of each end
to do the opposite of what the first sets do.
This will stabilize the rotor on the outside and keep it
from flying off.

We tried it before, now I have tried it again. It does not hold, it sticks.It has been manufactured for two years
.Jumps off and attracts.Only a gyroscope or use electricity.

 

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