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Author Topic: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment  (Read 9890 times)

Offline citfta

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #15 on: January 04, 2020, 02:11:15 AM »
Ayeaye,


I hope you don't mind if I make a couple of suggestions.  You need to establish what the frictional drag is.  You need to do a set up with your scales and the movable magnet well away from the other magnet.  The next thing you need to consider is that there are two kinds of friction.  There is static friction also called stiction.  You can measure that by slowly increasing the pull of the scales until the movable magnet just starts to move.  In other words you want to measure how much force it takes to get the movable magnet moving.  Once the magnet starts to actually move the frictional forces drop considerably if the surface is pretty slick.  Once the magnet is moving you can then read your scale to see what the sliding friction actually is.


Then after you have recorded those values you can go back and redo your experiment with the fixed magnet in place.  And then you can more accurately calculate the actual forces involved.


Respectfully,
Carroll

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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #16 on: January 04, 2020, 03:28:43 AM »
On slippery dry surfaces the static friction shouldn't be much greater than the friction when moving, but what the difference is, this can be measured too, by putting some weight on the moving surface with no magnets.

I measured friction when moving my coffee mug on the table, that's glass on plastic. It started to move with 0.35 Newtons, and continued to move with 0.35 Newtons. I moved it slowly. I found no static friction greater than friction when moving.

What is likely true though is that when the surface is covered by some liquid, such as oil in ball bearings, then the friction likely decreases when the movement starts, because the moving object kind of glides on the liquid. The static friction is also greater when the surface is anyhow sticky.

I'm waiting for opinions, is it ok to do the experiment in that way, or should it be done in another way.


Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2020, 07:37:48 PM »
A new and improved video of the experiment is now up  https://archive.org/details/asymmsurf2 . I have yet to do the calculations.

It appeared that a greater distance away from the neutral position, the other pole of the small magnet starts to attract to the other pole of the big magnet. It stands like in the air. Nothing can be done to improve that. I wanted to use things like iron nut that doesn't have two poles, but forces were too small.

I'm sorry, it's not the best quality, better if camera were in the fixed position, etc. But one goes with what one has. Replicate this experiment and do it better.

How am i going to get the measurements? I will measure the number of pixels horizontally with gimp, between the magnet and some mark, on screenshots. Gimp shows x and y in pixels, of the cursor position. Knowing that the diameter of the magnet is 10 mm. I also consider the angle of view when getting the measurements of the spring scales. Not the best but, for the first time it's good enough.

« Last Edit: January 04, 2020, 11:53:42 PM by ayeaye »

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #17 on: January 04, 2020, 07:37:48 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #18 on: January 05, 2020, 03:49:15 AM »
The result was not what i expected, it appears that the magnet gets more energy at the left side, but with this linear movement it may be so, and it corresponds to how the magnets were tilted in my other experiment. Something like field lines that go to the other pole, bend away faster, and thus the force at the right side decreases much faster, one can clearly see that in the video.

That confirms my this experiment  https://archive.org/details/Flcm3  in a measured way.

The following was measured from the video. At both sides the movement is considered so long, that at the end of it there was no measurable force to the magnet.

At the right side the magnet moved 3.57 mm with the force 0.8 N, and 2.29 mm with the force 1.0 N, thus energy at the right side was 5.15 mJ.

At the left side the magnet moved 17.43 mm with the force 0.6 N, and 6.71 mm with the force 0.4 N, thus energy at the right side was 13.14 mJ.

The force when moving was 1.2 N at the right side, and 0.8 N at the left side. Considering that the force when moving was constant, then the forces considering friction were the following.

At the right side, first 3.57 mm -- ( 0.8 + 1.2 ) / 2 = 1 N, friction 0.2 N, 3.57 mJ, next 2.29 mm -- ( 1 + 1.2 ) / 2 = 1.1 N, friction 0.1 N, 2.52 mJ .

At the left side, first 17.43 mm -- ( 0.6 + 0.8 ) / 2 = 0.7 N, friction 0.1 N, 12.20 mJ, next 6.71 mm -- ( 0.4 + 0.8 ) / 2 = 0.6 N, friction 0.2 N, 4.03 mJ .

Thus the energy at the right side was 6.09 mJ, and the energy at the left side was 16.23 mJ, 10.14 mJ more.

By these calculations, only 4 mJ goes to friction during all movement through the field, 6 mJ should be left. Thus the magnet should go through all the field when starting from the left, and gain speed. Yet, when releasing the magnet from the beginning of the field at left, it stops at the neutral position. I have not tried to make it to go through with an initial speed.

What i would like the most, is someone to replicate this experiment, many thanks.


Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2020, 04:01:52 AM »
Think of a balloon
When you push in one side the other bulges out
Press it against water one side gets flat the other
gets bigger.


Pull on a piece and the other side goes inwards.
the ends change shape too.


If you have a viewer that is larger than your magnet
you can see the entire field and how it changes shape.


You can also make a “tray” out of thin sheet of clear plastic
And sprinkle filings on top, thinly so you can see below
Then play with the field.

They are never truly symmetrical.
One side is always stronger by a tiny bit
Even with factory magnets that are “identical”.
Higher priced ones can get close but never perfect.


anything we do to one side changes the other.
There’s always the same ‘total field strength’.
Except in one of two discrete instances:
In one case an attracting field of sufficient strength
can dominate the magnetism of the original magnet
and temporarily “nullify” it. Or in other words, the
field strength temporarily approaches 0.
In the opposite case a repelling field can overpower
the magnetism and “flip it” instantaneously propagating
a field exponentially greater than the two fields combined.
By exploiting either of these discrete cases
(usually with the aid of a 3rd approaching field)
Magnetic switches can be constructed for any number of
purposes.


In case 1: switching “off” one magnet allows the dominant
field to occupy the same space, for a duration, then the other
magnet can return to its’ original state.
A mechanically driven magnetic motor can be constructed.
Turning mechanical oscillations into rotational force.


In case 2: “flipping” the fields can drive a rotational force of
mind perplexing power for it’s size.
And was used to power a Magnetic Jet Engine at Lockheed
Based on patent 4151431


To understand it, see also patents: 5402021 , and 4877983


https://youtu.be/o6F9I5OiSTE

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #19 on: January 05, 2020, 04:01:52 AM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #20 on: January 05, 2020, 09:24:40 PM »
I would say that this experiment showed the gain of energy clearly. But of course it is only confirmed when replicated.

The precision of the spring scales was 0.1 N, so this can be considered the error of the results. This may make a lot of difference though, like when the friction was 0.3 N instead of 0.2 N, then it is much more likely that all the gained energy went to friction. But even with that error, the results showed clearly a gain of energy.

I attached the plastic box to the table with four pieces of mounting tape, so it did stay in place when moving the magnet. That way it is easy to remove the box from the table, without leaving any traces at all, and the box can be attached to the table again, with the same pads. The other way is to put something heavy inside the box, or at both sides of the box, that may do, but may not be the most elegant solution.

One doesn't necessarily have to have spring scales, the experiment can also be done using a rubber band, this may be proper for these forces. The rubber band has to be calibrated, that is measured what is its length with zero force, and what is its length with some known weight, like by weighing something brought from the store, with the known weight. Then the length of the rubber band can also be measured from the video, the same as distances. Rubber band and any spring is surprisingly accurate, as hooke's law applies to all of them.

The big magnet also may be something else, like it may work with the neodymium magnet from an old hard drive, attaching that to an angled position would be even easier. May be enough to attach it to some box under an angle, like maybe a cassette box or even some cigarette box, that then is attached into the big box, should not be difficult to do. Instead of the small magnet, one could maybe try some magnetized iron object, maybe the forces would be great enough to measure. I don't know, i have not tried all that, so i cannot possibly say for certain what would work. But i showed in principle how to do that.

Advice for these who may want to replicate this or similar experiments better. Put the camera in the fixed position, so that the movement of the magnet will be completely horizontal on the video. It helps to put a millimeter scale on the box, but it even helps to put some marks there, like marking the neutral position. It would be much better when a paper disc can be attached to the hook rod of the scales, then on the scale it will be the same at any angle. This may require altering the scales though, the way that is difficult. Or to use a higher precision so that both the magnet and the entire scales can be in the same view, with high enough precision to read the scale. Such precision is possible, but my camera is not capable of that. Hope that it may help.


Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2020, 01:06:14 PM »
Measuring distances with gimp is not that complicated. What i did, i watched the video, stopped it, then took screenshot of it with gimp. Then made the zoom of the image 100%. Gimp shows the location of the pointer at the lower left corner, x and y in pixels. I put the pointer to the last point of the distance measured, and then to the first point, then subtracted the latter from the former. No need to save anything, just exit from the image and it's ready to take next screenshot.

The same functionality should be available in other graphics editors. I don't know about paint.net in windows, but pinta has it when adding rulers with the view menu, it shows the x and y coordinates of the pointer on the rulers. Pinta supposed to be similar to paint.net, but it's open source and can be used in linux, it also works in windows, and it can take screenshots too. Just use pinta or paint.net, these are simple graphics editors, or some other graphics editor, many of them have such functionality.

I just used the fact that the diameter of my small magnet was exactly 10 mm, it was two ceramic disc magnets one on the other, both 10 mm in diameter and 5 mm thick. The big magnet below the lid was 8 ceramic disc magnets one one the other, 25 mm in diameter and 5 mm thick, tilted 45 degrees, to say that again. But it may be good to stick some markings on the lid of the box, with a known size, or such, to make the distance measuring easier.


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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #21 on: January 06, 2020, 01:06:14 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #22 on: January 06, 2020, 08:14:08 PM »
It is still not entirely clear “what” you are trying to measure.


Is it the difference in strength between the N or S pole?
and how are you equating this to energy?


For how long of a distance is this force applied?
And how much time does it take to do this?




Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2020, 09:58:17 PM »
It is still not entirely clear “what” you are trying to measure.

The energy, at the both sides of the neutral point. And i measured that is is greater at one side (left side) than the other side. Thus asymmetry.

Neutral point is the only point where the magnet stays in one place. When moving from left to right, before the neutral point there is a force in the direction of movement, and after the neutral point there is a force against the direction of movement.

> Is it the difference in strength between the N or S pole?

No, it has nothing to do with it. The other pole of the big magnet is far away and doesn't influence significantly at all. Because the big magnet is at the 45 degrees angle.

> and how are you equating this to energy?

Energy at the both sides is the distances moved away from the neutral point, multiplied by the force during that movement, sum of these.

> For how long of a distance is this force applied?

Distances at both sides were measured up to the length when there was no more a measurable force.

> And how much time does it take to do this?

Time is not relevant to these calculations. Or what do you mean, how much time it took to do the experiment? A few hours preparing everything, plus what you see in the video.


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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #23 on: January 06, 2020, 09:58:17 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #24 on: January 07, 2020, 12:03:37 AM »
Distances moved, and for each distance the force to the magnet. A distance multiplied by that force is energy. Calculate energy for all distances moved, and sum all these energies, this is energy at one side.

Ok, that drawing again, it didn't look so nice previous time. The small magnet there is at the neutral position. Left and right from the neutral position on that drawing, is what i mean by left and right. I found by measurements that energy is greater at the left side. 13.14 mJ at the left side and 5.15 mJ at the right side (without friction).


Offline telecom

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2020, 01:18:42 AM »
almost 3 to 1!
How do you cycle it?
Let it move from left to right?

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #25 on: January 07, 2020, 01:18:42 AM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #26 on: January 07, 2020, 03:08:11 AM »
Let it move from left to right?

Yes, but there is friction. I calculated friction too, above.


Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #27 on: January 07, 2020, 03:24:17 AM »
What I mean is, Force is only Force.
Force over distance is work.
This time it takes for that amount of work to be done
derives the energy.


Force/distance/http://www.theochem.ru.nl/~pwormer/Knowino/knowino.org/wiki/Joule_(unit).html
Having only force, you have no energy.
Having force over a distance (and I promise you, wether or not
your scales show you, the force is not constant over that distance)
gives you work.
But you don’t know how much energy it took to do that work unless
you know how much time the force was applied over that distance.


Thus, I still remain confused about how you are seeing “energy”.


Also, as I tried to relay in my previous posts, one side of the field affects
the other. Your “neutral point” is an effect of both the S and N poles.
Change the size or location of your metal nut and watch how the angle/distance changes
for your experiment.


I can make the ‘fabled’ monopolar magnet. And they do not work like we expect.
They are the same as any other magnet, just having only one pole.
The mono field takes on the same shape and attributes as the dipole.
Push on one and it distorts the other.
The total field remains the same always.

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #28 on: January 07, 2020, 03:41:20 AM »
The actual unit of a Newton is a time based quantity.
Those spring scales are calibrated on 1 Kg*m /s/s
You are measuring a static force like weight. Not an
acceleration force like gravity. Which is what the Newton is.


The force has to be applied for a distance over a time.
This is energy.
In this tutorial (mostly showing how to 0 your scale):
the user is allowing gravitational acceleration to provide
the time derivative force.


Magnetic fields exist outside of the time domain.
Time is only considered when an object is moving through
the field. A static force causes the scale to work like a weight
scale. Showing you kg/m. Not Kg/m/s/s.

Also, don’t calibrate it vertically unless you are measuring vertical

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #29 on: January 07, 2020, 04:16:26 AM »
What I mean is, Force is only Force.
Force over distance is work.

I said that i measured both forces and distances, and from that calculated energy. See how i did my calculations above.


 

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