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Author Topic: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment  (Read 14523 times)

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #120 on: March 03, 2020, 10:03:35 PM »
Yes right, there is asymmetry then too.

There shouldn't be in the Coulomb model, that is by the Coulomb model, the energy at both sides of the pole must be always equal. So it is certainly a non-Coulomb irregularity.

"and at the end of the left travel there is a very big repelling force more than .4"

Yes, may be interaction with the other end of the big magnet. The magnet being under an angle should avoid that, like i had no measurable repelling force at the left side.

"Approximately, to convert kg to Newtons, multiply by 9.8, to convert kg * cm to milli Joules, multiply by 98. Like you had 37 milli Joules at the left side, and 29 milli Joules at the right side."


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Offline telecom

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #121 on: March 03, 2020, 10:58:14 PM »
So where do we go from here?
I wonder if these vertical forces can be utilized as well, since they are quite big.

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #122 on: March 04, 2020, 12:16:47 AM »
Dunno. Try to measure all forces. If you can put the moving magnet to the other side of the aluminum bar and the big magnet at the right distance from it, then you can also measure forces when the vertical force is up and not down. I tried to measure these too, but other than the forces at the left and right that i measured, i couldn't find any other horizontal measurable forces, that is not any strong enough to be measured.

Also, try to measure friction at all points, by measuring force just before the magnet starts to move in the direction pulled, and the force just before the magnet starts to move in the opposite direction. It is a bit tricky, and with spring scales i couldn't do that very well, with electronic scales it may be easier. Then you can calculate the real force and friction at any point. The friction forces appeared to be not that great, and shouldn't change the general result, but as a matter of accuracy they should be measured.

The most important is to measure overunity beyond any doubt. That has a great theoretical importance.

Other than that, trying to find ways how to increase the energy gain, and maybe trying to achieve acceleration. That is magnet entering the field with speed and no initial force, and exiting the field with increased speed. That is going through all the field, with gaining speed. When that happens, then that alone is enough to show overunity.

"I wonder if these vertical forces can be utilized as well, since they are quite big."

Mechanically it may be difficult. But say when the forces are enough to make a disk to rotate. Then a small axial movement of the big magnet can be utilized in an electromagnetic way, to get energy, without decreasing the energy that causes rotation.


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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #122 on: March 04, 2020, 12:16:47 AM »
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Offline telecom

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #123 on: March 04, 2020, 01:33:43 AM »
Dunno. Try to measure all forces. If you can put the moving magnet to the other side of the aluminum bar and the big magnet at the right distance from it, then you can also measure forces when the vertical force is up and not down. I tried to measure these too, but other than the forces at the left and right that i measured, i couldn't find any other horizontal measurable forces, that is not any strong enough to be measured.

Also, try to measure friction at all points, by measuring force just before the magnet starts to move in the direction pulled, and the force just before the magnet starts to move in the opposite direction. It is a bit tricky, and with spring scales i couldn't do that very well, with electronic scales it may be easier. Then you can calculate the real force and friction at any point. The friction forces appeared to be not that great, and shouldn't change the general result, but as a matter of accuracy they should be measured.

The most important is to measure overunity beyond any doubt. That has a great theoretical importance.

Other than that, trying to find ways how to increase the energy gain, and maybe trying to achieve acceleration. That is magnet entering the field with speed and no initial force, and exiting the field with increased speed. That is going through all the field, with gaining speed. When that happens, then that alone is enough to show overunity.

"I wonder if these vertical forces can be utilized as well, since they are quite big."

Mechanically it may be difficult. But say when the forces are enough to make a disk to rotate. Then a small axial movement of the big magnet can be utilized in an electromagnetic way, to get energy, without decreasing the energy that causes rotation.
Yes will try playing some more with this setup.
The disc idea may work, since we can try using rotational momentum of the vertical forces.

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #124 on: March 08, 2020, 06:19:36 PM »
More about friction. Yes there is static friction and dynamic friction. Maximum static friction is  us * N  and dynamic friction is  uk * N , where N is the force perpendicular to the surface, and us and uk are coefficients of maximum static friction and dynamic friction. Dynamic friction doesn't depend on speed. The Coulomb model of friction.

Maximum static friction may be greater than dynamic friction, though on dry surfaces there may not be much difference. But regardless, we only need to know the maximum static friction.

Maximum static friction is the friction at the moment when the object starts to move towards the sum of the horizontal forces to it.

We have two forces to the magnet, the attraction of the big magnet, and the pulling force of the scales, these forces are opposite to each other. When the attraction force is great enough, the magnet moves towards the neutral position, and when the pulling force is great enough, the magnet moves in the opposite direction.

The maximum static friction is against the sum of these forces, so the summary force to the object is always less by the maximum static friction, when the object starts to move.

Therefore, the force we measure is less by the maximum static friction when the magnet starts to move towards the neutral position, and greater by the maximum static friction when the magnet starts to move in the direction pulled. Thus when we measure these two forces, the real force is the average of these two forces, and the maximum static friction is the difference of these two forces divided by two.

The scales measures the force against. In the first case it is the real force to the magnet minus friction, and in the second case it is the real force to the magnet plus friction. Because in these two cases the friction is to the opposite directions. In the first case against the real force to the magnet, and in the second case in the same direction as the real force to the magnet.

When we know the maximum static friction at a certain point, and we know the perpendicular force at that point, we can calculate the static friction coefficient us, and knowing that and the friction at any point, we can calculate the perpendicular force at any point.

Just some basic things necessary to know.

« Last Edit: March 08, 2020, 08:29:29 PM by ayeaye »

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #124 on: March 08, 2020, 06:19:36 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #125 on: March 09, 2020, 09:36:53 AM »
Drawing showing friction. I don't want to flood Telecom showing his work but important to know some trivial things.


Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #126 on: March 10, 2020, 06:17:39 AM »
As i think. When moving the magnet from the neutral position to a certain point and stopping there, the measured force is the real force to the magnet plus friction (maximum static friction), like when moving the magnet against the force. When stopping the magnet, it moves slightly forward from the point. Then in spite that it doesn't move, the measured force and the friction remains the same, as the forces don't change any more, because they are balanced.

The same i think when moving the magnet towards the neutral position to a certain point, and stopping at that point, the measured force is the real force minus friction (maximum static friction), as when moving towards the force to the magnet. For the same reason as above, the forces are balanced and don't change any more.

I have not tried that, i just figure that it should be so.


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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #126 on: March 10, 2020, 06:17:39 AM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #127 on: March 19, 2020, 01:05:29 AM »
Using scales seems to be the best solution. One can use pulleys and weights yes, but it is rather difficult to make the pulleys, also it's rather inconvenient. The Telecom's scale is pretty good, completely enough for the task. Disk supposed to be for continuous working in that case, but better to use measurements, to get enough overunity first, if one believes that continuous rotation is possible. I feel it may be possible with a very strong stator magnet and very good bearings, though i'm not sure, not that good, but still a continuous rotation.


Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #128 on: March 30, 2020, 01:13:02 PM »
This experiment is also the simplest example of a more general method of finding overunity in many kinds of magnet setups. What is called neutral point in this experiment, is more generally the state of minimal energy potential.

The setup always moves towards that state, and in that state it is stable, with no movement. There are two paths to the state of minimal energy potential from outside of the fields, and the energy of moving by both paths is measured. When the energy of moving by one path is greater than the energy of moving by another path, then there is overunity.

That below was copied from my post in another thread.

Coulomb model for magnets is the model proposed by Coulomb, where all poles have a perfectly spherical field, with inverse square law always applying, even when poles are close to each other. For such model, every pole is considered to be a point, which is usually the center of the pole area. Consider like magnets with poles on large flat sides, think how much the field of a pole by that model there differs from the real field of the pole.

There is no overunity in the Coulomb model and in any design that in principle can be explained by the Coulomb model. (Such as V-gate, etc, many designs by Lafonte.) No matter how many magnets there are, how are they positioned, and how they move or rotate. Because the energy of a pole entering a spherical field up to a certain point by any path, is always equal to the energy of going outside of the field from that point by any other path, as every spherical field is completely symmetric. This is true for every two poles of the setup in the Coulomb model, and thus for the whole setup.

The difference of the field of a pole from the Coulomb model, provides a certain asymmetry of the field. How this asymmetry can cause a gain of energy, can be estimated by knowing the shape of the field. Like, when there is a pole with more field lines on one side than the other, then obviously one gains energy when entering the field with a pole of another magnet, at the side where are more field lines, and exiting the field at the side where are less field lines.

This asymmetry can be called a non-Coulomb irregularity, because in the Coulomb model of the same magnet there is no such asymmetry, and thus there is a difference from the Coulomb model. In spite this is not a very sophisticated approach, it nevertheless enables to estimate the possible overunity in a setup, and makes the research and experimenting much more methodical, instead of just randomly trying and seeing whether there maybe is overunity, like searching a needle in the haystack.


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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #128 on: March 30, 2020, 01:13:02 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #129 on: March 30, 2020, 01:42:26 PM »
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