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Author Topic: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment  (Read 9725 times)

Offline ayeaye

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Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« on: November 19, 2019, 05:10:15 PM »
On the figure 1 below is the position of the magnet and disk, where the asymmetry was the greatest. About the dimensions, the ceramic disc magnets there are 25 mm in diameter and 5 mm thick. The iron nut there is in the neutral position.

When moving the iron nut to the 6 o'clock position and then releasing the disk, the nut moved fast to the neutral position. But when the nut was in any position in the opposite direction from the neutral position (the negative side), it stayed in place in every position and didn't move.

When trying to measure it with a thin rubber band, the maximum force on the positive side was somewhere around 0.01 N, on the negative side the maximum force was likely not more than 0.005 N, in fact the force was too weak for my rubber band to measure anything.

I think that even my 1 N range spring scales that i ordered, are not capable of measuring so weak forces. A precise force gauge is capable of that. One can clearly feel these forces by hand, yet they are too weak to measure.

The theory and evidence why such asymmetry supposed to provide energy, is in this thread  https://overunity.com/18288/power-from-repelling-magnets/ .

Like, compare this experiment to the field lines of a magnet on the figure 2 (shown by iron filings). You see that what this experiment seems to show, somewhat corresponds to the usual asymmetry of the magnetic field near the pole of a magnet.

« Last Edit: November 19, 2019, 07:59:59 PM by ayeaye »

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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #1 on: November 21, 2019, 08:30:14 AM »
When a magnetic field exists in the domain of another magnetic field:


Asymmetry always exists.
Because there is not an equal and opposite field on the opposite pole of the field.


One side of the field warps in response to the dominant field.
The opposite pole responds oppositely
Asymmetric


The only time the field is symmetrical is when it is undisturbed.


We create symmetry with out architecture
Orientation of magnets and coils, etc.
Anything outside of this, symmetry is broken and all theory goes out the window.

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2019, 06:41:08 PM »
Yes i couldn't measure the forces with my spring scales. Because forces are too small.

I have this idea now, if anyone wants to hear. Move a pole of a smaller narrow magnet, some 45 degrees linearly pass the big magnet. I tried it by hand, i would say that the forces should be measurable, and by hand the attraction feels greater before passing the magnet, than after passing the magnet. Moving by hand proves nothing though.

I found that all that is necessary, is the small magnet to move by a slippery surface, such as plastic. Because of the forces, nothing else is necessary, and on that surface the forces are only on one line, i tried that too. So all that is necessary is to attach some thread to the lower end of the small magnet, attach the hook of the spring scales to it, and move the magnet by moving the spring scales, stopping after every small distance.

I further thought, when the video is captured from above, no scale is necessary for distance measurement, because distances can later be measured from the video. Also as i said, it's better to add an additional paper disk around the hook rod of the spring scales near the end, then all the measurements can be seen from the same view of the camera.

I though one way to do it, is a transparent plastic box, though not inevitably necessary. Then the big magnet can be attached inside the box to its side, and the small magnet is moved on the lid of the box. Just one way that came to mind, not necessarily the only one, but there is not necessarily a need for a bench, because the forces are all on one line, this simplifies it.

Just what came to my mind, not necessarily the best. But doing that is too difficult.

Below is the photo of my spring scales. These have 1 Newton range. These spring scales did cost $2.80 from ebay, they are very precise and work well.


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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #2 on: December 30, 2019, 06:41:08 PM »
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Offline citfta

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #3 on: December 30, 2019, 06:54:41 PM »
I am looking forward to your video.

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2019, 11:42:23 AM »
Just a simple drawing, to give some idea how this experiment supposed to happen. Not much to draw, but drawing always makes it more clear. The principle is to move around the small magnet on the surface, with scales. The best surface is something very slippery, such as glass. But plastic will do, i tried it, holding everything by hand. I will likely not do this experiment, because it is very difficult.

By asymmetry again i mean non-Coulomb asymmetry, or non-Coulomb irregularity.


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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #4 on: December 31, 2019, 11:42:23 AM »
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Offline citfta

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #5 on: December 31, 2019, 01:35:21 PM »
Hello ayeaye,


I have a couple of questions about your experiment.  First question is where did you get magnets with the poles on the end of the magnet?  Almost all the magnets I have found have the poles on the larger faces of the magnets and not on the ends.  Have you actually used a compass or other device to verify the poles are like you have drawn them?  And my last question is why do you say the experiment is too difficult to perform?  It seems pretty simple to me.  You can get some glue to hold the stationary magnet and piece of glass or plastic in place and then perform the test with your new scales.  I use the all purpose adhesive from ACE hardware.  It is waterproof and remains s little flexible after drying.  I use it because I have found that with a strong twisting force I can separate the parts I have glued together.  This allows me to reuse my magnets or other parts if I want.  I was using a stronger more permanent glue but then destroyed several magnets when I tried to reuse them for other projects.


Respectfully,
Carroll


PS: Thank you for moving your discussion to your own thread!

Offline WhatIsIt

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2019, 01:51:51 PM »
I don't get this?

Floyd Sweet made kW from magnets, and you are still struggling with basics?
For how many years?

It is really joy to read those posts!
Maybe the next year will be more fertile?
Who knows , maybe , if there will be still time?

Happy New Eve!

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #6 on: December 31, 2019, 01:51:51 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #7 on: December 31, 2019, 03:34:09 PM »
Floyd Sweet made kW from magnets, and you are still struggling with basics?

What you don't get is, none of these claims may be true. But ok then, let Floyd Sweet tell what principles he used, and let's replicate them by experiment. He doesn't tell, it cannot be replicated to get any overunity, well, that's the problem. The difference is, here scientific research and experiments matter, not claims.


Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2019, 04:16:06 PM »
First question is where did you get magnets with the poles on the end of the magnet?  Almost all the magnets I have found have the poles on the larger faces of the magnets and not on the ends.

To be honest, i don't have magnets with poles on the ends. Except one that is, the one taken from an old hard drive. I have magnets with poles on their larger faces. But, by piling a number of them one on the other, i get a bigger magnet with poles on the ends. See the first photo in this thread, there are disc magnets, 5 mm thick and 25 mm in diameter, with poles on their larger faces. Several such disc magnets are one on the other, and this forms a big magnet, as you see there. I have also small rectangular magnets with poles on their larger faces, a few one on the other enables to make a small magnet, with poles on the ends.

> And my last question is why do you say the experiment is too difficult to perform?

What should i use there, a plastic box? I have a plastic box, but it's not empty, there are things inside it, so i have to move them somewhere else. And so many other things.

So far i have used a mounting tape only, to attach everything, And it has been enough. I like it because it can be completely removed later, with no traces left. This is more difficult with a glue.

> Thank you for moving your discussion to your own thread!

I did not, this discussion is only about one experiment.


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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #8 on: December 31, 2019, 04:16:06 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #9 on: December 31, 2019, 11:47:42 PM »
Ok. the video of the experiment is up, this is it  https://archive.org/details/asymmsurf , make it fullscreen. Below is the photo of my "device". Yes it was difficult, it was a mess.

The big magnet was made of 8 ceramic disc magnets 5 mm thick and 25 mm in diameter, positioned at an angle like on the drawing above. The small magnet was made of 2 ceramic disc magnets 5 mm thick and 10 mm in diameter.

The video is rather raw. What one can see though, when moving to the right from the neutral position by the drawing above, the force was 1.7 Newtons, and it moved by that force some 3 millimeters, then the force rapidly decreased, energy 5.1 mJ. When moving in the opposite direction from the neutral position, to the left by the drawing above, the force was 1 Newton, and it looks like that it barely moved 2 millimeters, before the force rapidly decreased, thus energy 2 mJ.

By the force rapidly decreasing i mean, i never moved the scales fast, but always very slowly. But when the force decreases a lot, the spring of the scales makes the magnet to move fast.

This experiment was rather messy, it was the first one. But hopefully it shows the difficulties with such experiments, and how to make them better.

Happy New Year everyone!


Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2020, 06:09:26 AM »
i had to improvise a lot.

The alternative is a disk with a bigger ball bearing or a linear bench. As i also said, it would be good to use two big magnet "stators", like at the opposite sides, so the forces perpendicular to the movement then compensate each other, much less friction and stress to the bearings. Certainly more difficult to implement. But moving on the surface works as it appears, friction is not too great.

I used a box in which they sell some things in the grocery store, and while a more slippery surface like glass would sure be better, i have no complaints about the box. I used spring scales with the 5 Newton range, i bought 3 of them, 1 Newton range, 5 Newton range, and 25 Newton range, the 25 Newton range one has not yet arrived. And it appears that i did well getting scales with different ranges.

Putting this big cylinder magnet under an angle is a problem. Glue is one way, or one may make a construct out of cardboard, to hold it in place. I improvised with some cardboard from matchboxes, and it worked, though sure not a pretty solution.

The biggest problem as it appeared, the small magnet, when it moves away, tilts towards the pole of the big magnet, and falls over. This can be solved by attaching the small magnet to some plastic or anything flat beneath, that prevents it from falling over. Then attach thread to that "sledge" beneath. While somewhat increasing friction, likely not too much. I have not tried it, but it should work.

The scale is likely necessary on the lid of the box, either drawn or printed, then just glued there. Because while it's not a problem to see the distance moved from the video, try to move the magnet like by 1 mm, and hold it in place there, rather difficult when measuring just by eye. And near the big magnet, very small distances matter, like maybe it should be moved by 1/4 mm.

At that, moving so precisely, is difficult to do by hand, though may be possible. Another solution is to attach the spring scales to something with adjustable distance, like by a screw. But that's difficult and requires an additional mechanical construct. What concerns precision though, it would improve it a lot.

The proper way is to start to measure away from the neutral position, and then slowly moving towards the neutral position. Why, because the spring of the spring scales is under tension, and when the force decreases a lot, the spring pulls more than necessary, making the magnet to move rapidly. I did it the wrong way, one learns when doing.

A problem is certainly that the spring scales are long, and it is difficult to put the magnet and the scales both in the same view, so that the precision is great enough. I moved the camera around, from spring scales to the magnet and back, this is not a good solution, as you may see from the video of my experiment. I said, put a paper disk around the hook rod of the spring scales more towards the end, but then found that the spring scales are all glued together, and cannot really be opened without breaking them. It may be possible to saw the end of the tube off, and then to glue back again, though that isn't so easy to do. It is certainly possible to make a mark on the hook rod. The position on the scales can then be seen only with a proper camera angle, but the position of the mark can also be measured from the video.

So here i described several problems with these experiments. It was mostly about how to increase the precision of these experiments. For others who may try to do these experiments. To think, it's the simplest when one person does it all, the easiest solution because no others then have to do anything. The way to express it is, we wait and see with interest what you can do. Does one person have to do everything, or how much is enough for one person to do? Especially with these things not rewarding at all, like this overunity research. And not a right way either, as it is anyway necessary for several people to replicate the experiment, for it to be valid.

All the ideas how to improve these experiments, are welcome. Anyone willing to replicate the experiment, is more welcome.

Prize for these who measure overunity for the first time, anyone? Should be shared between all these who made it possible.

« Last Edit: January 02, 2020, 08:51:30 AM by ayeaye »

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #10 on: January 02, 2020, 06:09:26 AM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #11 on: January 02, 2020, 04:30:43 PM »
Have you gathered yet any data to share?

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #12 on: January 02, 2020, 04:44:19 PM »
Have you gathered yet any data to share?

Only what i said above, and what can be seen from the video. Mostly that the maximum measured force when moving in one direction was 1.7 Newtons, and the maximum measured force when moving in the opposite direction was 1 Newton. Both times moving from the neutral position. But the experiment was not yet well done.

PS I attached a piece of tape to the hook rod of the spring scales, hope that it can be seen even in these bad lighting conditions. These are the 5 Newton range spring scales.


Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #13 on: January 03, 2020, 04:43:41 PM »
What concerns friction, i should explain here, as i see it. When the spring scales stand still at some point, then the force is the real force minus friction. When we move the spring scales against the force from that point, then we see the real force. So friction at that point is that force minus the force when the scales stand still.

In spite when we move the scales against the force, we see the real force and can also calculate the energy when moved by that force, a part of that energy goes to friction, and is thus useless. Thus, when the magnet enters the field with some speed, it will not get enough energy when going through the positive part (up to the neutral point), to go through the negative part and still have some energy left. Because a part of the energy goes to friction. So it will not accelerate, its speed when exiting the field of the big magnet is not greater than its speed when entering the field.

In spite of that though, if we calculate overunity by forces that include friction, there is that overunity, just more energy goes to friction than this overunity provides. I think this can be calculated from the measured forces. We can likely also calculate the friction at any measured point, see how great it is, and how much it has to be decreased, for there to be acceleration.

The measurements also likely enable to see with what magnets, etc, the energy gain is greater, and thus hopefully find a solution for a continuously rotating device. This is though not relevant for the theoretical research, what is relevant for the theoretical research is overunity when disregarding friction. After all we do research, no one is likely interested in making any practically working device.


Offline ayeaye

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Re: Getting energy from asymmetry of the magnetic field experiment
« Reply #14 on: January 04, 2020, 01:36:41 AM »
No, it was not quite right.

When the scales stand still, then the measured force fs is the force to the magnet f, minus the force of friction ff. Because when the scales don't move, then the force of friction works against the force to the magnet.

fs = f - ff

When the scales move with a constant speed, and it doesn't matter with what speed, then the measured force fm is the force to the magnet plus the force of friction. Because when the scales move, the force of friction works against the pulling force of the scales.

fm = f + ff

Thus, when measuring the force starting from some point both when the scales stand still and when the scales move, the force to the magnet is

f = (fs + fm) / 2

And the force of friction is

ff = f - fs

These things are important to know every time we are dealing with friction.


 

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