Wireless energy transfer experiments ,Builders board

[stivep]

in  regards to

#1capacitance does not need two plates to exist or even discharge.

#2 A balloon has no plates and can be charged or discharged. So I consider it a capacitor.

Short answer:
add#1  two  plates are  required
add#2  balloon is just one of plates( point of charge)

Long Answer: capacitance is the property  of capacitor and it doesn't exist without capacitor.
-coil has capacitance  as reactive component of impedance and that is perfectly normal to say  that  coil  is the "coil-capacitor"
-piece of wire on  the table connected to nothing has capacitance  as reactive component of its own impedance
 and that is perfectly normal to say  that  coil  is the "coil-capacitor" and Yes it can resonate.

All depends from value of its reactive capacitive component : capacitive reactance  at given   frequency.
By  that the  vertical dipole antenna in your car  can receive  FM radio stations  if it is  in resonance,that means the two  of dipole  antenna reactive  components
the
-inductive reactance
and
-CAPACITIVE REACTANCE
CANCELS ITSELF AS THEY ARE EQUAL IN MAGNITUDE-but opposite   one to another
the  only  what is left at that point is  resistive  component   that exists  all the  time despite the fact of us dealing with DC  or AC.
So again :
Such  a condition  is called resonance._{start to watch from here}  https://youtu.be/XOTLfnMOSqQ?t=142
Resonance can exist in  both the parallel  resonance  circuit  and series  resonance circuit,  even  if we deal with  wire on  the table not connected  to anything.
and  it experiences both the parallel  and  series resonance however never at the same time and at the same frequency.
It can have also series/parallel  combination of resonance but that  is extreme  case  so  forget it.
 
Example:
It resonates if its  length is equal  to conditions causing resonance  (e.g 1/4y)
Coil has increased   capacitive component, due to wind  to  wind space or diameter of  wire/foil used.
Typical foil capacitor is two  or more  coils and its capacitive component  for AC is significantly higher than its  inductive  component.
If you were to connect each  of the singular coils of that foil  capacitor into separate circuit you  will  get 1:1 transformer with  no core  and  separated  by  insulating wax  paper 
( electrolytic capacitors  are  excluded  from that  explanation)

So the bottom line is that if you charge  one side  of capacitor this charge will always have  vector of force at given direction.
balloon will always have charge  that is  refereed to earth or to  any closer body of lesser or   opposite sign.
==============================================================================

poynt99 is convinced the transfer of power is taking place between the single wire and TC top capacitance which are linking together to complete the current return path (2 plate capacitor)

Closed circuit is only required   when you deal with   DC  or AC  but not when you deal  with EM wave.
In regular transmitter : You may transmit energy into an antenna and than to Far Field   when you  first resonate than radiate and never reverse.
In regular  transmitter ( not Tesla  Coil  with TC in  our  case ):
 after you radiated energy, you can switch OFF  the  transmitter  and  EM wave  will  travel   forever till totally dissipates   due to  losses

However it is different story with :
1. Zenneck Wave or surface wave  in  the  interface.and it acts as  said    right below
2. In case of EM wave  in  Goubau  line or in interface
when  you  transmit you have  surface  wave in the  interface or Goubau  dielectric coated wire
When you stop to  transmit  you  have nothing there.
=============================================================================

I conclude the power is being all transmitted through the single wire between each TC

.
That is correct.
=============================================================================

The TC top capacitance are single plate capacitor and not linked in any way.

The top capacitor is ( one of plates  of capacitor)the part of electrical circuit of  the single structure of  that particular Tesla coil acting  as transmitter.
The rules of closed circuit applies only to that Tx
However since Tx Rx structure as one  is  reactive in its  nature the  impedance match between Tx and Rx is required
When you change  anything in Rx  that  makes impedance match non existing than you are  causing  the Tx  to suffer.
That moment has nothing to do with closed path of closed circuit.
when there  is  no impedance match  you have bad SWR or VSWR to be exact. The reflected  EM wave from detuned Rx is bouncing back  to  the  Tx
and it may cause its damage or its  generator damage.
Impedance  match at  Rx site is achieved by all components of Rx including the load

That is  one of major problems of Viziv trying to commercially use surface wave known as  Zenneck wave  in the interface  air/earth (also known  as lossy dielectric and  dielectric interface)

 Wesley

[gotoluc]

The top capacitor is the part of electrical circuit of  the single structure of  that particular Tesla coil acting  as transmitter.
The rules of closed circuit applies only to that Tx
However since Tx Rx structure as one  is  reactive in its  nature the  impedance match between Tx and Rx is required
When you change  anything in Rx  that  makes impedance match non existing that you are  causing  the Tx  to suffer.
That moment has nothing to do with closed path of closed circuit.
when there  is  no impedance match  you have bad SWR or VSWR to be exact. The reflected  EM wave from detuned Rx is bouncing back  to  the  Tx
and it may cause its damage or its  generator damage.

Just to be clear, in my tests, the Tesla Coils wireless power transmission possibility or properties is not used (bypassed) by the single wire connected to the bottom secondary wire of each coil.
I believe the distance between Tx and Rx could be miles apart and still transfer the same power if theoretically I had an ideally shielded wire. I wish I had 1000 feet of this wire to test its capabilities.

Regards
Luc

[stivep]

Not I must disagree.
first don't confuse single wire  transmission with  single wire and earth  return.( https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Single-wire_transmission_line )

At the end of the 19th century, Nikola Tesla demonstrated that by using an
electrical network tuned to resonance it was possible to transmit electric power using only a
single conductor, with no need for a return wire. This was spoken of as the "transmission of electrical energy
through one wire without return".

single wire with earth return  is  closed circuit No EM.
We are not interested with  that.

Single wire  Goubau is that what we  are talking ABOUT .
Please read whole article  from  Wikipedia  _{(link  above)}
Wesley

[poynt99]

I don't disagree with anything you wrote. I just don't understand how it fits with our conversation, so please allow me to be specific.

I agree with Wesley also, and Wesley brought up the inferences I was hoping you would make.

poynt99 is convinced the transfer of power is taking place between the single wire and TC top capacitance linking together (2 plate capacitor) through the ground to complete the current return path.

Not actually. What I proposed is that the circuit is formed by the connecting wire, and the air capacitor, which itself is formed between the two top-load plates and the air. Ground is not necessarily in play here. I was hoping I wouldn't need to make an electrical equivalent drawing, but here it is.

The TC top capacitance are single plate capacitor and not linked in any way.

What leads you to the conclusion that they are not linked?

[stivep]

The system   shown on the picture above will work as  single wire with  return but this is not what we are  interested with
However this  particular concept needs to have impedance match as well.
It is similar to regular Tx with coaxial  cable as transmission line. Usually  75  or 50 Ohm.
or
to one of  few concepts  of single wire with earth return
and it is also reactive system even if I said  in  post above  that :

single wire with earth return  is  closed circuit No EM.

It can but it doesn't have to be reactive.
that depends from : How the system  is  made.

The answer is in details.
1.  single wire with return =_{( is also the same  as)} single wire with earth return
2.  single wire with earth return  as  closed circuit no EM
There two are  two different systems:
the #1 is usually reactive system =_{( is also the same  as)}  Tx with  coax cable and load matching impedance  of transmission line of that Tx
the #2 is typical electric circuit   and requires to be electrically closed circuit
==================================================================================
In reactive systems there are 3  major components to be  matched :
1.Traditional  system  with traditional Tx
a. impedance of Tx e.g 50 Ohm must be matched by
b. transmission  line e.g coax cable 50 Ohm and than
c. impedance  of  the load e.g antenna or lightbulb  or resistor  must be 50 Ohm to  match  impedance of transmission line (  the coax)

2. Tesla coil  with Goubau line  ( the dielectric coated wire)
a.   impedance of Tx                                               e.g 50 Ohm _{or whatever is the  impedance}  must be  matched by
b.  transmission  line e.g  Goubau  line                     e.g 50 Ohm _{or whatever is the  impedance}  and than
c.  impedance of the load e.g Rx-Tesla Coil with load e.g 50 Ohm _{or whatever is the  impedance} must match that of transmission  line
Again please understand  that this _{(or any impedance)} has not much to do with resistance of the wire  used as Goubau  line.
And Resistance is  only one  of 3 elements of  impedance.
Impedance is also measured  in Ohms 

Wesley

[stivep]

the some of examples of impedance matching related  to post above:
1. https://www.hobbyradio.se/en/eh/ehbenchtest_en.html  ( not so much important)
2.traditional  impedance matching with three components :
-  Tx  ( RF amplifier)
-  Transmission  line
-  antenna ( or resistive load/ dummy load)

Wesley

[gotoluc]

Not actually. What I proposed is that the circuit is formed by the connecting wire, and the air capacitor, which itself is formed between the two top-load plates and the air. Ground is not necessarily in play here.

Actually, exactly as I wrote and you originally proposed. You're just changing your mind from what you originally wrote and dropping the ground path idea.
Here's what you originally wrote.

circuit is completed via the path from the top capacitance of the TC's to earth ground.
A Faraday shield around the RX coil won't shield the effect because essentially the earth is being used as the return conductor.
The shield may even improve the effect as it could increase the conductivity from the RX top capacitor to earth ground.

Sounds to me like you were saying earth ground was the return conductor?
So what about the Faraday cage now that you changed your mind about the ground being used as the return conductor. Would your new theory of air capacitive coupling still work through a Faraday cage?

What leads you to the conclusion that they are not linked?

The fact that an air capacitor looses most of it's capacitance value with increased distance between plates. Just a change of plate distance from 1/32nd of an inch to 1/2 an inch is a huge drop in capacitance, let alone a distance of 50 feet!

I was hoping I wouldn't need to make an electrical equivalent drawing, but here it is.

Thanks for the drawing. I took the liberty to make correction to truly reflect the reality of my device under test so everyone understands what you are now proposing.
I must admit I'm having as much difficulty accepting your newer 50 feet air capacitor distance between TC top cap plates proposal then your previous TC top cap down through earth ground return path.
At least you're out of the ground now and closer to what the Physicist has been entertaining.

BTW, if you or anyone else can think of a test I can do to prove or disprove a 50 feet distance between plates air capacitor is capable of completing a current path (15 watts transfer) between Tx and Rx I'm all ears and ready to learn something I think is not possible.

Kind regards
Luc

[r2fpl]

That's how energy is transferred through one wire.

[stivep]

I  made it even easier
Wesley

[stivep]

the same but  using foil instead  of wire
And now we dealing with one  of forms of interface
made from;
-  foil ( copper or aluminum)  the  conductive medium and 
-  air  the dielectric medium
in  picture  where  it says connecting wire there is  no connecting wire  and instead there is  foil
black arrows are indicating that you can tune the device by lifting up and down  TC ( Top Capacitor)

Wesley

[stivep]

The same but  using earth the lossy conductive medium instead of  foil
in  picture  where  it says connecting wire there is  no connecting wire  and instead there is  earth
black arrows are indicating that you can tune the device by lifting up and down  TC ( Top Capacitor)
Wesley

[gotoluc]

The same but  using earth the lossy conductive medium instead of  foil
in  picture  where  it says connecting wire there is  no connecting wire  and instead there is  earth
Wesley

Yes, I did that test with 10ft deep x 3/4 inch pure copper grounding rods and only 15 feet apart and got zero watt transfer.
I'm quite sure that's when poynt99 changed his mind about the ground being a conductive medium for the TC top caps.
Don't get me wrong, I do believe ground can be used as a conductor but in some parts of the world where the ground is mostly sand, the cost to create a low impedance ground could be very costly, maybe $5k or more.

Regards
Luc

[stivep]

I explained quite  detailed conditions for impedance match.
apart from that you  need:
- vertical  polarization
- your wave must be in TM mode
- right Brewster angle( wave tilt)
- and possibly  phase match ( may  not be critical)
Your videos  shows small fixed   Top Capacitors with no ability to  move up/down
Your distance was 15ft  try  60ft and your TEM changed to TM mode might be already in the  interface

This  is the right size of  Top capacitor and distance from  the earth   or foil:
D= or > 4d
https://youtu.be/XOTLfnMOSqQ?t=950
But that does'n  yet give you the  right height.
Moving TC  up  down makes  the tuning .
===============================================================
Everything is  in  my posts from  above  and in my video.
I  suggest to try  now foil instead of wire next you can try   air earth  interface 
keep  the  distance  at 60ft if possible if not than 25 ft  is  OK  too.
The  frequency  used at test  below was 27MHz
But you can use any frequency of your choice below 54MHz


Wesley

[d3x0r]

isn't foil just a conductor?
could you put the foil through a water bath?  
I mean to look-up - are tesla capacitors actually an inner post and outer plate?  or are they just two sets of bottles with a single conductor in each?  With no current exchange between the bottles?

(I wish there was a fixed point font - code or pre)
<pre>
  +----   +      -  -----+
| | |                       | | |
| | |                       | | |
\___/                     \___/
</pre>


---
I made this: https://gitter.im/FreedomCollective/PureEnergy  I'm @d3x0r there too   It's more like slack/;discord, but less noisy because it's for sharing project information.

[groot]

Maybe a bit too early but this will explain a lot in next steps :

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zrDxSM91Jcg