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New theories about free energy systems => Theory of overunity and free energy => Topic started by: norman6538 on July 20, 2019, 11:01:53 PM

Title: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: norman6538 on July 20, 2019, 11:01:53 PM
I am currently constructing two Butch Lafonte repel balanced machines that will give over 500% energy out by using one to release the repel force between two magnets. Butch Lafonte originally made a scissors version with 2 attracting magnets on one end and 2 repelling magnets on the other end. When I saw  that  about 12 years ago I knew it had some real potential. So I right away made a rotary version and then a linear version but could not unbalance them to achieve any useful energy. Then I thought to combine them so one will release the permanent magnetic power in the other.  I am currently working on the close tolerance to make them work well. But meanwhile you can see the 3 versions that I made in the attached photo.
The weather is too hot in my garage to work very long so it will take a week or more to work
10-15 mins at a time. Butch seems to have disappeared but you can see some the the
Lafonte group videos/annimations here.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygf5xoyWIsI&feature=related (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ygf5xoyWIsI&feature=related)
If anyone knows were Butch is let me know, I sure would like to contact him.
He will love my enhancements. They are way past the sticky spot.
I have always said  that if you can take a small force to release a larger force then it will be OU.

Norman
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ramset on July 21, 2019, 01:01:58 AM
same problem here in NE USA with the heat 15 20 minutes in the shop then sit inside infront of the fan...taking forever to get stuff done feels way hotter than 100 degrees out there !

I had some contacts for Butch years back
will try to find the...also didn't forum member Dusty work with Butch? think I had a contact there too?

thanks for sharing !!I hope Butch is still around...may take a day or so to find what I have ,computer was fried a while back

keep cool
Chet K
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: norman6538 on July 21, 2019, 01:35:55 AM
Thanks Ramset. My email for Butch no longer works but I called his cell ph
and left a message. He lives in Alabama.

He could came up with more ideas but never much on measurement.
I have been fooled by the feel of my hand many times. I like weights
instead of measurement devices. In one case 1 weight dropped 1/4 inch
and the same weight was lifted maybe 1/2 inch or more. It was all in plain view,
nothing to dispute.
Butch's absence could mean he found something and went quiet.

Norman
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: Floor on July 22, 2019, 07:55:28 PM
Thanks Norman

I'm glad to see that some one is continuing with / adding to the La Fonte concepts.
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: norman6538 on July 27, 2019, 02:49:37 AM

My work with the Lafonte cascaded has failed after 3 embodiments due to imprecision.
But I was able to demonstrate with a manual fixed setup that the stacking of magnets
from a cascaded device does turn the repel on and off at the other end of that rotor.

see the video  at: https://youtu.be/lBQ38F_WbUs


So the concept is valid but not  adequately embodied. I ordered some better bearings
to reduce the tolerance. So far I have had to make my own bearings out of long rods
for stability but that takes time.

Stay tuned. Norman
 
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: norman6538 on August 01, 2019, 01:20:27 AM
My work will be delayed. I had aq heart attack Mon.but recovering well.
Norman
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: gyulasun on August 01, 2019, 10:49:35 AM
Hi Norman,

I keep my fingers crossed for your health and wish you full recovery. 

Gyula
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: norman6538 on August 01, 2019, 12:16:11 PM
Thanks Gyula.  It was totally unexpected out from nowhere and within 15 min
 
called 911 and got to the hospital in 1/2 hr for 1 stent in 1 blocked artery.
 
Norman
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: Floor on August 01, 2019, 05:05:01 PM
Get well soon.

         floor
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: norman6538 on August 10, 2019, 12:06:03 PM
I have recovered enough to piddle around a little more but I'm waiting for parts which should arrive Wed. Then I should be able to do the final assembly and test power in vs  power out.
If that goes well I will then cascade to a bigger machine to get enough power multiplied to
feed back to the smaller machine and keep the cycle running except it will take some serious
clockmanship to accomplish that. Along the way I have improved my construction precision skills.

I was able to walk 3/4 mi. 2 times yesterday.
And the temp has cooled down enough to work in the garage without getting heated up
in 10 mins.


Norman
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on August 12, 2019, 03:19:22 PM
I doubt that your design amplifies power. Why, because after it turns 180 degrees, the attraction force stops it, so also the force to start the motion seems to be quite great.

Saying that, i think it's true that any asymmetric field can do continuous work, and magnetic field is an asymmetric field because it has two poles. This means that there should be a trajectory how one magnet goes through the magnetic field of another magnet, and gets propulsion. This drawing shows such trajectory in a straight line  https://ia800903.us.archive.org/22/items/Flcm4/pmmbp12.jpg  but there are other possible trajectories, maybe 3D, that may be more efficient, that depends on the shape of the magnetic fields. The other question is how to make a magnet to move exactly on such trajectory.

My this experiment seems to show overunity  https://archive.org/details/Flcm3  that though doesn't exceed the friction. But the problem is that it was done by hand, which of course anyone can repeat, but it is not really measuring it. This experiment thus should be replicated using pressure sensitive resistors or such, to measure forces, and a trigger, like a vertical stopper that doesn't depend on the hand motion horizontally. The importance is though that it seems to show overunity, and there is also a theoretical reason why there should be overunity in such design, so this is a reasonable subject for research.

Thank you for your attention, if it was anyhow useful for anybody.
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: norman6538 on August 12, 2019, 04:39:39 PM
ayeaye thanks for your reply. I'll be  brief because I have recovered enough to work a little and my parts have arrived to complete my machine. I have said for a long time that if a small force can release a larger force then we will have OU. This machine is my 3rd example of OU. It is based on using 2 Lafonte machines to turn off and on the permanent magnetic forces. Most people don't believe this is even possible but it works.
My first measurement gave 1 unit of work in and 4 units out. I should have this measured by Wed.
I am very weak and can do very little at a time.
I was careful to give the details to my children in case anything happens to me so barring
the men in b???k you will soon know how to do it.

Norman
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on August 12, 2019, 05:57:12 PM
I have said for a long time that if a small force can release a larger force then we will have OU.


Right but, i think one should first theoretically show that in some design a small force really releases a larger force, and not just another force. I proposed a theoretical foundation for that and it did stand all criticism for 6 years, so why not think your design theoretically through based on that? As i see, there is only one theoretical reason that can cause overunity in permanent magnets, and maybe not only in permanent magnets, so by that all overunity in permanent magnets should be explained by this.

Many thanks for all your efforts at that, i just want that your efforts will have a result significant for research. Even if you first fail to get overunity the way you think.
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: norman6538 on August 12, 2019, 08:01:10 PM
I'm enjoying the dialogue. My 2nd OU device was the Lafonte slider and here is what you saw.
1. weight dropped x distance.
2. 2 weights were lifted that same x distance. Very very clear.

That is the way I measure things. Only the brain dead could not see the obvious. An I will
do it the same way this time.

Here is the principle that is alway in play.
1. set it up - the appratus must be moved/cocked/set to make power.
2. power is made/used/ or stored.
3. reset for repeat by moving something back into position of step 1.

So step 1 is a small force, step 2 is a larger force, and step 3 is a small force.

Norman

Norman
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on August 12, 2019, 10:35:18 PM
I looked at the lafonte things, didn't convince me though anyhow. One device that was shown, yes sure the force to separate two magnets may well be 5 times less than the force with which they attract. When to move two much bigger repulsing magnets against each other, and steel bars towards the magnets, which also need an additional force to later separate them from the magnets. So not 5 times less force at all, if not greater force. All in all it looked to me as a bad idea. No theoretical reason given why this thing as a whole should provide overunity, no calculations or anything that the total energy to separate will be less than the energy gained when attracting. Making it even less convincing.
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: norman6538 on August 15, 2019, 02:52:31 PM
I have recovered enough to continue my construction in short spurts. I got the rotors mounted and a stator and find it very tricky to match the attract and repel forces so that movement
is balanced and requires very little effort. I will continue to tweak fine tune it.
I have made about 10 of these Lafonte things and one of the scissors devices I could never
get balanced.

I know magnets vary even in the same batch.
I may have to develop a threaded adjuster to get it right.
Remember I first saw the possibility in Lafonte's ideas 12 years ago and
have made much progress in a month and a half with a very busy schedule
and a heart attack in the middle too. 

The sadist part is no one sees the potential in this enough to even assemble a simple
20 minute Lafonte device. As you might guess I have no place in my life for professional
sports squandered time and money.

Norman

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on August 15, 2019, 05:49:02 PM
Ok, i don't understand this Lafonte very well but i think think that neither do others. So what i figure so far. Two magnets are attracted, it needs a greater force to separate them. Then we approach one pole of a bigger magnet to these two magnets from the side. Then sure more interaction goes to interacting with the bigger magnet, and the force to separate two magnets is less. I tried it and my fingers are quite sensitive, i can say the force was 2 times less maybe, not 5 times less as Lafonte says, but i don't exclude that in some configuration it may be 5 times less.

That the bigger magnet approaching and moving away needs no force, i doubt it, the magnetic fields are not ideal and all is never exactly how it theoretically should be. This effect then is also due to magnetic fields being asymmetric, that is having two poles. Show that there is overunity, measure it, this is important, even if it doesn't overcome all the possible friction there, which i think will most likely be the case, nevertheless it's important. Don't try to make continuously moving device, measure whether there is overunity in that effect or not.

So how is it, this?


    N ->              <- S

NNNNNNNNNNNNNN


           <- N S ->
NNNNNNNNNNNNNN


The matter is, very few people here are really capable of research. if you make some thing fully working, then they replicate yes, but it needs research to get there, so there is no use of it. And these few who are, mostly don't do any research, because they cannot afford the time. And there are a large number of possible things to do, so the possibility that two people do the same thing, is almost zero. Thus, in spite a lot of interest, this forum cannot much help the overunity research.
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on August 16, 2019, 04:36:42 PM
I would just say about that one, maybe it works, maybe it works better, but it is much more difficult to measure, than my design. What concerns mine, one should just add a pressure sensitive resistor and a simple trigger, and that's all that is necessary. If one likes that design, fine but, much more work. To make it such that it can be measured and not dependent on the movement of hand. I don't know of course all the possible variations of Lafonte, maybe some are easier to measure, but overall the design seems to be more complicated, three magnets interacting instead of two, and movements in two directions instead of all on one line. But ok, do it if you prefer, measure it, though more complicated and needs some calculation.

Did you already get pressure sensitive resistors, or anything such? What a thing, changing the distance between magnets in an adjustable way? Quite a bit to do, but if you work with nuts and bolts, different from pieces of mounting tape as i did, then it may be possible, pressure and force can be measured at different distances, and work calculated as one may figure.

One good thing to know though, there may be more than one possibilities for overunity with permanent magnets, maybe. Before i knew only my solution, i don't know anything else that has any measured overunity either, even when done by hand. Would be great if this would be the second of course.
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: Floor on August 16, 2019, 08:34:35 PM
@ Norman6538

Glad your all right  and back at it.

 floor
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on August 21, 2019, 03:47:30 PM
This experiment can be done without anything at all, one just needs magnets and force sensing resistors (pressure sensitive resistors), something like these  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Resistive-Film-Pressure-Sensor-Flexible-Force-Sensitive-Resistor-for-Robot/362699404305?hash=item547291b411:m:mwYkv3D5OqYdTTZXeo6MeeQ . Energy is force multiplied by a distance. A sum of small distances and forces at these distances, is a good enough approximation. Force sensitive resistors should be calibrated, like using a known weight with an area equal to the area of the magnet, see what resistance corresponds to that

I tried to find a video of measuring magnets with force sensing resistors, i couldn't find any, many videos about how to use force sensing resistors. So when doing only that, that's something not talked about, and easy to make a video about something there are no other videos about. Something new to go into, and at that it's rather simple.

This is a video about force sensing resistors  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rTO3U-0Njtw . One really needs only a multimeter, but it's not linear. I don't really know, never tried these things, which ones to use, how accurate they are, etc, Just telling all i know. It were a joy to work with these things, if i could afford the time, i see with regret the wonderful things that i'm missing.
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: norman6538 on August 24, 2019, 02:33:55 PM
My recovery has had some setbacks but I expect to make progress during the next week.
I have to move up to a small bicycle wheel to get the precision needed to get an accurate measurement.

My full health diagnosis is not complete yet but I expect that to come this week after
more tests.

Norman
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: norman6538 on August 30, 2019, 10:04:07 PM
I'm quasi functioning again in less than low gear but I have all the parts made and ready to mount and adjust/weak. I have a break all day tomorrow so expect to have a report tomorrow if my health does not fall apart. I have better adjustability but the repel is very tricky to get right on.

Norman
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: norman6538 on August 31, 2019, 04:36:30 PM
I made a very interesting discovery today. I could not physically align and zero balance the magnets and I suspected that the repel spin had something to do with it. When the attracting magnets on the left would pull the rotor but not align physically then when I pushed the left past the alignment point it found a magnetic balance spot where it took little to move in either direction. Then when I pushed it past that sweet spot the repel took over and kicked the rotor on clockwise.  That spin is why my pendulum only works when the magnetic polarity is correct.

That will affect all of my research - back to the drawing board.

Norman
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on August 31, 2019, 05:52:19 PM
I think you are trying to go too complex. Trying to make it continuously rotating, you just cannot chop it through. I also made my experiment with a full circle of magnets later. In theory it was supposed to continuously have overunity, but really, the poles tilted in unknown ways, all became very complex and impossible to control, and all was against the wanted effect. And complex, the difference was only having a whole circle of magnets, very simple configuration, but very complex things happening.

This is why i say, trying to make it to continuously rotate is not an easy solution to the problem, and thus not the right thing to do. I said, try to do measurements instead, in the simplest configuration, measure whether there is overunity. Measure the simplest Lafonte effect. Very important, as much as i know, no one has done it yet. Get the force sensitive resistors as i referred to, measure the force at every distance, at two different distances from the bigger magnet. Then do the calculations, calculating the energy for both is very easy, high school physics, once you have these measurements. Mostly try how to measure force with force sensitive resistors, they are really pressure sensitive resistors. I think they would be precise enough, they are cheap so should be tried first, or more advanced pressure sensors should be used.

It is a problem, too many want an easy solution, showing it constantly rotating is great of course, and no need for measurements and calculations. But this always ends with, trying one way, then another way, then another, no result, and a lot of work, may be not for each case separately, but all together a lot of work. Instead of doing the research, methodically, starting from the simplest, measure, calculate. In spite that it sounds a nuisance and too much work, it is really much less work, that certainly has a result, positive or negative, but at least one can see for certain how the things are.

Get a multimeter, costs $4 something, ways to get it free, it measures resistance. Get a few alligator wires, cheap also. Get pressure sensors like resistors.
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: norman6538 on August 31, 2019, 06:59:35 PM
Thanks ayeaye, If you look at my work in the past it is always crude and basic and simple. I am not trying rotation - Yes it is a rotor but I am only trying to measure the power in and out using the rotor with weights lifted and dropped.

I am thinking through this. One way is to go 3D in a way similar to Floor.
Leedskalnin said that either the N or S pole pushes more iron fileings up than the other.

And remember we still do know really know what magnetic fields are. We use them and know their characteristics but do not really know what they are.

Norman
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on August 31, 2019, 07:18:56 PM
Just start from measuring the simplest thing, the simplest Lafonte effect. But measure the energies completely, in joules.

What magnets are. Likely they are just dipoles, that is atoms. Electrons rotating the same direction, they attract, opposite directions, they repulse, like the Ampere law. Read my other threads here, even about how induction works. That all that really exist, are the electrostatic forces, magnetism is a dynamic effect.

Why they have overunity, well why don't the electrons fall to the nucleus, in spite they do work?

Go a bit ahead, get a multimeter, i say multimeter is fun.
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: norman6538 on September 04, 2019, 03:35:25 PM
I'm still running in 1st gear but I finished another version than has an axle off center so it self attracts and it measures 400%. But I think the best will be the linear version and I started it today and expect to finish in 2 days if I have enough strength.

Norman
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: norman6538 on September 09, 2019, 03:10:42 AM
In the past few days I have made major discoveries and now get 600% out.. with 2 vertical aproaching - not rotor/stator Lafonte's  but the repel is stronger than the attract so the repel mag sare not aligned to make them weaker....and its very sensitive to adjust and even then the forces  are not symmetrical because approaching and leaving switch between attract and repel.
Who - da - ever thunk it?

Now I need to scale it up and feed output back to the input.

Norman
 
 
 
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on September 09, 2019, 11:52:06 AM
Who - da - ever thunk it?

Can you anyhow show that it is 600%, or how much it is? This is the only thing that matters now.
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: norman6538 on September 09, 2019, 01:50:31 PM
ayeaye - I can but I'm more interested in scaling up. Remember I use weight down vs weight up x distance so that measurement cannot be disputed.

Norman
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on September 09, 2019, 02:07:41 PM
ayeaye - I can but I'm more interested in scaling up. Remember I use weight down vs weight up x distance so that measurement cannot be disputed.

Scaling up is not important at this stage. It is first important that the measurements are correct and this is often the most difficult task. Show the measurements, make a video that shows the measurements. Whether it can be disputed or not, will be found out after you do that. People will estimate by your evidence, how much overunity there is, whether there is any and what is the efficiency then, and how much, if any, is dependent on the hand movement. Measurement is not an easy task, but it is the most important.

Please understand, likely many are interested, if there may be overunity, it is very interesting to find out.

If it doesn't work, please show also, Lafonte doesn't work, important to know.
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: norman6538 on September 17, 2019, 10:32:58 PM
I'm making progress but not as fast as I would like. The problem is when two magnets that are close together approach each other from one side they flip from attract to repel before they attract and visa versa for repelling magnets. So I am back to the linear setup which is not easy to make. The magnets have to stay equal distance from the controlling device or it will get stuck.

I sure have learned a lot since July.

Norman
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on September 18, 2019, 03:02:32 PM
Yes, do the simplest, and then it's still complex. Whenever more than two magnets interact, like Lafonte, always unexpected things happen. I should say that Lafonte is right now above my theory. I can say that there should be overunity due to asymmetry (two poles) in the magnetic fields. I can show how this can result in overunity in case of two magnets (see above). But how it plays out in case of more than two magnets, that's a more difficult question.

I'm all interested though. Only one should here wait and wait and wait again, always.
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on October 01, 2019, 07:04:38 PM
Nothing? Try to measure something, anything... And measurements can be static, you don't have to balance anything, just measure the force at different fixed positions... Force multiplied by distance is energy. Maybe force can be measured by weights, the weight that causes magnets to separate, etc, i have never thought about that.
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: citfta on October 01, 2019, 07:59:40 PM
Ayeaye,


I posted a video on Floor's magnet, motion and measurement thread showing real measurements.  What have YOU done with that information?  Probably nothing.  If you want a bunch of measurements done then BUILD something and take all the measurements you want.  I am so tired of the non-builders making demands of the few of us that are actually doing something.  WE don't owe YOU anything.  I am sure when Norman feels more like it he will get back to building.


Carroll
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on October 01, 2019, 10:02:26 PM
I posted a video on Floor's magnet, motion and measurement thread showing real measurements.

Where is your video? Do you mean the thread "Magnets, motion and measurement" in mechanic? I did read that thread, though maybe not thoroughly enough, didn't yet find your video, but i will look for it. Did you see my video?

I'm sorry but, i don't force anyone to do anything. Just posted my two cents in hope that it may help. Don't start a conflict please, i know how it starts and why. Assuming you are a good guy, i do, i know some here are not. When the things are complex, everyone has their doctrine how they deal with it. And they contradict each other and cause conflict. Try to avoid that please. What i say, everyone is free to disagree with, the same about what anyone else says. Please try to work together, instead of creating any unnecessary divisions, please.

What concerns me doing things, i have done things, you see them here. How much i should do for it to be enough? I did but i cannot afford time for that right now, i'm sure this is true about several others, please please don't accuse them. The same may happen one day to these who do experiments now. They cannot afford the time to do experiments, yet they can afford to say what they know or what they think. I think that's fine.

All i'm about, i'm about research. I'm very interested in research.

And many thanks to Norman for what he did. Good that people know the things. These threads though, people read them who are interested in similar things, thus theory should be talked there, for people to see. Furthermore, this thread was posted in the theory subforum, not in the devices subforum, so the more there can be talk about theory and general things, not only about particular experiments.

Hey, be friends. Thank you.
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: gyulasun on October 01, 2019, 11:31:20 PM
Where is your video? Do you mean the thread "Magnets, motion and measurement" in mechanic? I did read that thread, though maybe not thoroughly enough, didn't yet find your video, but i will look for it.
....
It is two pages back in that thread:  https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/msg538952/#msg538952

Useful video and I appreciate it, thanks Carroll and also Norman for sharing.  Hopefully Norman has been recovering nicely.

Gyula 
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on October 01, 2019, 11:38:43 PM
It is two pages back in that thread:  https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/msg538952/#msg538952

So it's that video  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=68ChN24x_HU&feature=youtu.be

Absolutely great video, Citta ! I have not analyzed it very thoroughly, but i think that's it, you did it :)

You certainly don't owe me nothing, but talking about my video that i mentioned, see my this drawing  https://ia800903.us.archive.org/22/items/Flcm4/pmmbp12.jpg . This shows how the asymmetry of the magnetic field (two poles) can enable overunity. In theory any asymmetric field can do continuous work, this is one way how a magnetic field can do it. I'm sure that the effect that you showed is based on the same asymmetry. I have not thoroughly analyzed your case, but i showed the theoretical reason in the simplest case, involving only two magnets.
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on October 02, 2019, 05:37:16 PM
Absolutely great video, Citta ! I have not analyzed it very thoroughly, but i think that's it, you did it :)

citfta*
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on October 03, 2019, 04:21:27 PM
norman6538 or anyone who can afford it, would you please replicate the ctfta experiment, or do a similar experiment. It looks credible and very well done. But replication is formally necessary and as important, if not more important than the original experiment.

This excellent linear movement by ball bearings, i'm not a metal worker and i cannot do that. This is why i suggested to use pressure sensitive resistors. I said if a good enough dynamic movement cannot be made, it may be possible to make it static. Then measure forces at static positions using pressure sensitive resistors. Or scales like ctfta did, by measuring the force necessary to make a magnet to move. In that case it needs the magnet to slightly move, may though be possible to do that reliably.

Below is the drawing of the citfta experiment, made with dia. The shield magnet is slided in between the two magnets perpendicular to the surface of the drawing. Theoretically that should also need no force, in the reality it may need some. It looks like that it should work, that would be great, hope it's not yet another waste of the time,

With the magnets that i have i tried, seemed to be some two times difference, but it is difficult to decide that when the magnets are not fixed in place.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: norman6538 on October 04, 2019, 12:44:28 AM
I'm making slow progress because I have 2 unresolved medical problems and now my wife needs surgery too. I made about  20 different versions combining 1. my work 2. Lafonte balancing, 3. some Floor ideas too. They must be robust/strong and precise or it will not perform. I'm looking ahead to harvesting the power out. If things don't fall apart here at home I expect performance numbers midweek next week. But that will not be power fed back in.

Please be patient, you will like what you see.
Norman
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on October 04, 2019, 01:08:22 AM
Norman, it may not be for you the right time to do these things. Things are exciting but, only these can do these things who can afford the time. I think you better wait when your problems pass, then there will be time.
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: lancaIV on October 09, 2019, 06:11:41 PM
http://www.geocities.ws/k_pullo/
Probably of interest  ! If not : delete it  !
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on October 09, 2019, 06:53:53 PM
http://www.geocities.ws/k_pullo/
Probably of interest  ! If not : delete it  !

This seems to be similar to my theory, see my drawing  https://ia800903.us.archive.org/22/items/Flcm4/pmmbp12.jpg  and the experiment i did  https://archive.org/details/Flcm3  that seemed to show overunity, only it was done by hand and the peak force also felt by hand. So anyone can repeat it to see for oneself, but properly it should be replicated with triggering independent of the hand movement, and the force measured by a pressure sensitive resistor. The overunity there were, if true, was not great enough though to overcome friction.

My general idea is, that an asymmetric field may do continuous work. Magnetic field is asymmetric field because it has two poles. However, like if we model it with a Gilbert or Coulumb model, the sum of energy when modeling my experiment will most likely be zero. But the matter is, the real magnetic fields differ from the Gilbert model, maybe in that the field lines between the two poles are more parallel to the axis between the poles. And such field likely is asymmetric enough to do continuous work.

Then furthermore, the overunity, if any, may be caused by the fact that the electrons in a dipole don't fall to the nucleus, even when they do work. I also showed the reason why this energy supposed to come from the zero point energy. This electrons orbiting the nucleus is also what makes the magnetic field asymmetric, that is having two poles. And this applies everywhere where the magnetic dipoles are involved, in permanent magnets, solid state devices, and even mechanical devices, as the magnetic interaction between atoms causes elasticity.

That said, overunity may not be anything special. When we drop an object, the gravitational field does work, where this energy comes from? Then it may also come from zero point energy, and when we lift the object, we work against the field and the energy goes back to zero point energy. So it may not be about overunity, just a way how to get continuous work, and this requires an asymmetric field.

Though regardless how the overunity may occur in permanent magnets, it is likely always caused by the fact that the magnetic field is asymmetric (has two poles). Another effect that this Lafonte, citfta, etc, show, it that it is theoretically possible for a pole of another magnet to move between two poles perpendicularly to the axis between the poles, without encountering any force at all. This is also due to the fact that the magnetic field is asymmetric, and has two poles. And that said last is true even in the Gilbert or Coulumb model. Unfortunately though, as it appeared in measurements in the citfta experiment, for some reason in practice it is very difficult to approach this theoretical zero force even nearly.
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: lancaIV on October 09, 2019, 07:15:03 PM
Probably this inventor and artist shows and discuss " fuel free magnetic device"-s :
https://patentauction.com/patent.php?nb=9918
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on October 09, 2019, 07:36:05 PM
Probably this inventor and artist shows and discuss " fuel free magnetic device"-s :
https://patentauction.com/patent.php?nb=9918

I'm highly skeptical of magnet motors, they are mostly a hoax, if not all of them, just a waste of time. This simulation done with femm though, and what i mentioned, this is a real research. And i want everyone to realize that we are in it together, we really research the same thing, the same phenomenon.

Notice that there are not so many people in this forum. I have been in this forum for years, and who always reply, are still the same a few dozen people. We talk to each other, And this is what this forum is about.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: lancaIV on October 09, 2019, 08:56:26 PM
Scrolling the left side down  : "Statistics"
83501  " ( inscribed)members " ( I am here 4 x member LancaI, II, III, IV;  not abuse.  !)
mostly : 2006 "103".   

today : "44"

A relatively small active forum  ! ( + " passive"  guests)
-----------------------------

About sceptics : Brown Uni and " formula"  !  ?   Geral or only specific valid.  ? 

Only permanent magnet motor :  inertia. ?  ~ inrush voltage/ current problem from electro-magnetic motors

"hoax" : simple prototype as function/ demonstration model

             input/output, maget force lifetime et cet. as discussion theme

             coupled to generator : fixed or variable speed  ? the motor and the generator. !?
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on October 09, 2019, 10:13:36 PM
Is there overunity inside that permanent magnet motor, or is there not? No, this is not an interesting question, i'm interested in researching overunity.
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: norman6538 on October 11, 2019, 08:21:08 PM
I'm still dizzy at times but worse off because my wife might have cancer so its Dr. after Dr. and test after test.
I have made a little progress but the results are not good. The main reason is that the set and reset requires about 1 inch of movement but the "further weaker" aspect of magnets gives me only about 1/4 inch which starts off at  "further weaker". I use a variable lever so that even at
 "further weaker" work is done and more work is done as it gets "closer stronger".

I have 2 paired end to end so that the cycle is.
1. move and set the first device for power out
2. back off to unset and simultaneously set the paired device.
3. back off the paired device and simultaneously set the first device.

Norman
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on October 11, 2019, 10:11:53 PM
Maybe get these scales. The fish scales are $5. There are similar more accurate scales, these are called "force gauge", and they are $50 and up. These are used in laboratory experiments, and properly these should be used. The fish scales help a lot and may be enough, but consider the following.

Say the measurements would show overunity. What they will then talk about, is the accuracy of the scales. Like these fish scales, their accuracy is likely not more than one ounce. This means that when it shows 5 ounces, it may be 4.5 ounces or 5.5 ounces. Better to test the actual accuracy, the data sheet usually gives some number that the instrument is not useful at all, for all such things, so they have no responsibility.

Now the error calculation requires that it should be calculated with all the worst values, and then all the best values, then the difference between them is the error. Like when we calculate the difference of energies, then the error is two times more, that is sure +/- 1 ounce. With that it may sometimes be practically impossible to determine whether the result was correct or not. While the low precision scales can be useful, it's better to have a high precision "force gauge", to avoid an unnecessary work.

I will explain, like a - b, this is the smallest when a is minimum and b is maximum. And the opposite, maximum when a is maximum and b is minimum. Thus it varies two times as much as a and b separately, the error in a - b is thus two times greater, than the error in a or b.

These permanent magnet overunity experiments, it would be better if they could be done by the simplest means, so anyone can replicate. Permanent magnets itself after all don't cost much. But because overunity is so demanding goal, it is really about a maximum efficiency, then one rather needs a high grade equipment. As unfortunate as it may be.

PS I estimated that when citfta could reduce the force of shifting the shield magnet to 2 ounces, then he may have overunity. To achieve that would likely be very difficult though, as he already uses linear movement on ball bearings. It looks like though that in spite the movement is on ball bearings, it takes quite a force to move a magnet there, even if no forces affect it. Like moving towards the shield magnet may not have any force at all, it is at least 3 ounces, as if it always requires 3 ounces to move a magnet there. I don't know. But even if he can reduce the shifting to 2 ounces, his scales would likely have not enough precision to show the overunity, as the final calculations error with the scales he used would likely be +/-1 ounce, not better. Unless he perhaps tests the scales and shows that they have a higher precision, that these scales very unlikely have.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: norman6538 on October 17, 2019, 03:39:16 PM
I have been able to piddle around in between Dr. appointments and went back to the Lafonte device with an off center axle and the attracting magnets on the shorter end so they are closer and will attract. Which they do until the repel gets lined up. Then when the 2 arms are lined up the axle can be shifted to the center where equal forces will allow the 2 arms to be separated where power from attraction can be harvested again. The problem was I first made it as a rotor and due to the magnetic field rotations the 2 arms will never line up so I went to the scissors device where they will lineup and have an equal force. The trick will be where does the power come from to shift the axle. A solenoid would to that very well but it would have to connect to both axles and then release the former pivot. So it becomes a leverage shifting device with magnets. And what we are accomplishing is effectively turning the attraction on and  off to do useful work.
Then by cascading that to 2 larger devices it should be possible to get 10-20 times the power out.

Norman
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on October 17, 2019, 04:37:06 PM
To be honest, i don't understand what you made.

The problem, can you measure? As i don't know how it works, i cannot figure out how to measure.

The problem, the citfta device, with the shield magnet and linear movement, while simple, it is likely very difficult to make. The linear movement on ball bearings, kind of metal work? And at that, it seems to me that the citfta's device doesn't even have a movement fully on ball bearings, there seem to be like two ball bearings, and the other sides are without ball bearings... And it seems that in spite of ball bearings, the friction is quite high there.

So maybe a rotary device would be better, and it may be possible to measure it too. just measure force after every small distances, even if it rotates. Cannot figure out how though, without knowing the device.

One more thing, you were not quite right. It is true that an iron shield attracts to the position, and it is like output. But the problem is, it has to be pulled out, when it is between two magnets, and this is twice as much of energy. The shield magnet in theory needs no force when shifting in and out, in theory it should completely work. In practice though, only measurements can show.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: citfta on October 17, 2019, 05:09:38 PM

The problem, the citfta device, with the shield magnet and linear movement, while simple, it is likely very difficult to make.   Anyone with some patience and normal hand tools could make what I have made.  The linear movement on ball bearings, kind of metal work? A hacksaw, a hand drill, some drill bits and a couple of files are all you need to do the metal work.  And at that, it seems to me that the citfta's device doesn't even have a movement fully on ball bearings, there seem to be like two ball bearings, and the other sides are without ball bearings...  There are 6 bearings supporting each piece of aluminum angle.   And it seems that in spite of ball bearings, the friction is quite high there.  Wrong again!  The friction is very low as you can tell from carefully watching the video.


Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on October 17, 2019, 05:32:19 PM
"Wrong again!  The friction is very low as you can tell from carefully watching the video."

From carefully watching the video, i see that the force was 3 to 4 ounces when moving the magnet towards the shield magnet, while there shouldn't be any force at all. And there was 7 ounces of force when shifting the shield magnet. Ok, maybe because the shield magnet touched the other magnets, but even without it there was still 5 ounces of force. I don't see this as a very low friction, but of course i cannot know what it all may be caused by, i didn't do the experiment. I just say what seems to me after carefully watching the video, and i watched it very carefully. What concerns ball bearings, on the left arm i saw only two ball bearings, and i cannot figure where the others can be. I cannot be sure though, as i cannot see inside your device.

And better don't move towards the right magnet when measuring the output forces, this is wrong. Because then you add the friction force to the output force, measuring considerably more output energy than there actually is.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: norman6538 on October 17, 2019, 05:49:41 PM
Attached is a photo of the off center axle (at the nut) in the attracted  position. As you can see it is easily made of tongue depressor sticks and hot glue. If you pull the attraction magnet on the left down it will jump right up because it is closer than the repel on the right due to the leverage advantage of the off center axle. The center axle is just to the right of the nut. I put this together last night in an hr. and got photos and a video. If you are a "bencher" you can to it too.
I'm sorry about the large photo, I shrunk it to 1/3 and it still got too big.
Norman
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on October 18, 2019, 01:34:58 AM
Attached is a photo of the off center axle (at the nut) in the attracted  position.

No i cannot tell horns or tails, sorry. You should attach a drawing or video showing how it works.

I, well, i'm into mounting tape in the experiments, and scissors, never cutting wood or whatever. Though i agree that it's doable.

Citfta, i really think that your experiment was great, for the first time a magnet device was measured. And it should work in theory too, that's the greatest. It was not the best at first, but it was a big step ahead, very important. Maybe with some improvements you can actually do it, really measure overunity. I think friction energy should be measured separately, then deleted from the output energy, which i think can only be measured static.

Honestly, if i would have to make it, i would make it cardboard tubes inside cardboard tubes, rectangular, and fixed with mounting tape. And measure only static forces. At first i would try to make it like this...

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on October 18, 2019, 01:54:10 PM
And maybe it's better to have ball bearings on both sides of the shield magnet, then it is supported on both sides, and doesn't bend that much. Just what i can figure.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on October 25, 2019, 12:13:05 PM
It is not that i certainly don't understand the Lafonte device that Norman made. I guess that both pairs of magnets there attract each other. Then when we shift the axis a bit, it snaps easily to the opposite position. If i guess rightly. But the matter is that it is more difficult to understand what the overunity there may be caused by. Maybe it's because the force sidewise is greater than between opposing poles or something, something again maybe caused by the asymmetry of the magnetic field, it differing from the Coulomb model Also it is rather difficult to measure, first the force of shifting, and then the force of snapping. And both can happen at the same time. Maybe it can be approximated so that only one happens at a time. If i understood rightly, please correct me if i were wrong.

If there is overunity in that device, even when disregarding friction. and if it is caused by the asymmetry of the magnetic field that i talked about, then it may show that kind of asymmetry even better than anything else. I don't know how well i can show this, on the drawing below, a field somewhere near a pole in the Coulomb model, and in asymmetric field, just to give some idea.

Norman, it is difficult to measure. With so small magnets you should get force gauge. And you should measure what is friction. There shouldn't be any force, but i cannot be sure, properly friction should be measured under that force, like hanging weights to it.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: lancaIV on October 25, 2019, 01:06:50 PM
ayeaye,
http://translationportal.epo.org/emtp/translate/?ACTION=description-retrieval&COUNTRY=DE&ENGINE=google&FORMAT=docdb&KIND=A1&LOCALE=en_EP&NUMBER=3900890&OPS=ops.epo.org/3.2&SRCLANG=de&TRGLANG=en
scrolling down to :
"It is known that the force.... "
axial repulsive force  : tangential repulsive force
http://jnaudin.free.fr/html/2magpup.htm
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on October 25, 2019, 03:44:15 PM
Yes, many may have noticed it, but have not named it what it is, asymmetry of the field. If there is such, it is because atoms are not spherical either, they are electrons orbiting a nucleus. Maybe they attract side wise better, i don't know why, electron can see electron in another atom less when sidewise, maybe. The moving electrons do work, and don't lose energy.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: norman6538 on October 25, 2019, 04:50:10 PM
That Naudin work goes way back to '98 and he is impeccable. But when nothing more after years then I have to ask why and this is what I think. Force is not work. It has a distance component and that is probably what is missing to make it look usable.  That is exactly where I am stuck.
I am working on a metal window that opens and closes to turn on and off a magnetic force and I was trying to balance that like Lafonte's scissors and like 2 weights on a rope and pulley that will stay anywhere you put them just like the Lafonte linear device I posted a picture of. The balancing has failed so I'll just  work with 1 window and maybe an attraction force compensator. The problem I have is  the non linear force as the metal is  attracted  to the magnets.

I am still dizzy when I turn around but heart wise I'm OK. BUT my wife has cancer and needs surgery to remove the mass and then whatever is required. We are hopeful that it will be OK because the surgeon has done over 700 of these surgeries. If you can pray for Marian's healing and no infection after the surgery on the 30th and 31st We would appreciate it.

So I will be "magnetically weak" for a few weeks if things go well.

Norman
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on October 25, 2019, 05:11:17 PM
K, i wish your things go well.

Why, i think because the things are not understood. That it is about asymmetry of the field, and this asymmetry must be increased, to have better results.

The other thing is friction, there may be overunity, and experiments and even simulations show that, but it cannot overcome friction. Properly friction has to be measured, and the energy of friction subtracted from the energies. Then it may show overunity. That the energy goes to friction doesn't mean no overunity, though no use of it.

There may be asymmetry in the field, but normally it's likely not great, only a slight asymmetry, providing only a very small overunity. But there being any at all, has a tremendous importance theoretically.

We should understand what we deal with, this is the only way to find solutions to go further. The experiments now are to get that understanding.

I think that some researchers do really good work. Like Lafonte saying that there is 6 times overunity. He may be right, in some case there really may be, though in most cases maybe not. What he omits saying though, is that he likely always disregards friction.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on October 28, 2019, 08:34:56 AM
We can actually see that asymmetry, we can see that there are slightly less field lines coming out of a pole in the direction from S pole to N pole, than in the other directions. I cannot attach a picture here, because all these pictures are by who knows whom copyrighted, but see like this video  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy6H0mr3KXw . There we see the asymmetry we deal with, it is quite slight, yet clearly visible. Iron filings are small pieces of iron extracted, when a piece of iron such as a nail, is filed. It is rather delicate to use them so that they show the magnetic field well enough, showing the difference of field density, is likely especially difficult.

Now some suggest that this asymmetry can be increased, by adding shielding on the poles or such, i have not tried that and never thoroughly thought whether it really increases asymmetry.

Ok, i got one image from Wikimedia Commons  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Magnet0873.png , so i can attach a part of it here. I don't know how well the asymmetry is seen from there, some other images show it better.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on October 31, 2019, 11:15:20 AM
I think that i now understand how my this experiment  https://archive.org/details/Flcm3  really worked. I remember that i had to tilt the magnets. As you can see on the drawing below, there can be possible a straight line by which a north pole of another magnet can go through the field, getting propulsion. Because the positive attraction there is greater than the negative attraction, due to the asymmetry of the magnetic field mentioned before.

This drawing doesn't show an actual magnetic field, it was drawn just to give an idea. The correct angle, etc, depends on the actual shape of the field.

Properly, this thread should be called power from attracting magnets, as the experiments here only use attraction, but when using repulsion it should be the same, only opposite.

This also seems to work based on the same asymmetry. As we see, when we know what it is about, then we see that different experiments really show the same effect.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on November 01, 2019, 04:21:35 AM
Ok, some are still not able to see, so below i drew a red box around the area where are less field lines.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on November 01, 2019, 07:32:21 PM
An asymmetric field has overunity and can do continuous work. Now one can come up with whatever arguments that it cannot, but a simple logic says otherwise. Say that there is a 1 square foot area on earth, where gravity is 10 times less. Then we sure can move an object there, lift it up, then move out of that area, let it fall, and get much more energy than we put in, ready to move it to the area with low gravity again. Does anyone argue against?

Now how is a magnet any different? When there is an area at the pole where force is less, as seen above, then cannot we move a pole of another magnet there so it attracts, move it away, and then again towards the pole where the force is greater, getting more energy than we put in, and ready to move the pole to the area with less force again. Does anyone argue that it is not possible, when the field at the pole is asymmetric?

This asymmetry seems to be also in the Gauss equation for magnetic field. I have not tried myself, but i have seen simulation results using FEMM, that show an area with less force at the pole, just like that above. The Gauss equation for electrostatic forces has a spherical symmetry near the charge, built in, the Gauss equation for magnetic field doesn't. If it did, it couldn't likely model the real magnetic field, where such asymmetry is present, so it had to be made the way it is, That the field lines must always go loops, this doesn't really make sense, nothing moves in loops there, and may be just an artificial doctrine that enables to model fields that differ from the Coulomb model. That said, the field lines form loops of course, assuming that there really are field lines inside the magnet, where they go back to another pole. The same with the Coulomb model, except that there is no requirement for all field lines to go to the other pole in a loop without going to infinity.

Either the field itself is asymmetric, or we can make it asymmetric by a static shield, in either case the field is asymmetric. Like if we could shield that 1 square foot area on earth so that the gravity there is 10 times less, we can use it to do continuous work in the same way. Likely not possible for gravity, but may be possible for a magnetic field.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: shylo on November 01, 2019, 10:21:22 PM
ayeaye,
do you believe the iron filings, showing the lines, have poles?
I don't think they do.
Were taught that iron will take on poles, I think that is a fundamental flaw.
Domain alignment is true ,but flipping them is without work.
artv
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on November 01, 2019, 11:05:41 PM
do you believe the iron filings, showing the lines, have poles?

I think they have poles, i think they are temporarily magnetized.

It is just that, when spreading iron filings evenly, and maybe a bit shaking after that, there will be less field lines where the force is less. Many images show that, so this eliminates a kind of hand error.

A pole of another magnet, i said. When there is only attraction, it can likely be even not a magnet, but also some iron object, such as an end of an iron nail or screw.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on November 02, 2019, 10:59:38 AM
I tried it, the drawing of my experiment above. using 8 disc magnets some 25 mm in diameter, one on another, and on top of it two layers of mu metal, taken from an old hard drive. i moved a head of a large screw pass it, like on the drawing, but parallel to the magnet. Yes weirdly with mu metal shielding, it worked the best, when i moved it parallel.

There seemed to be some clear propulsion, i felt no negative attraction. Not a great force, yet it was clearly felt.

The screw attracted quite a lot to the mu metal from above, though it supposed to shield. When moving in parallel, no attraction was noticeable though.

That way when using magnet as a stator, there can be a full circle of screws on the disk. Then there will not be the problem of tilting the poles with a full circle, that i encountered with full circle of magnets.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: DavidWolff on November 02, 2019, 04:39:54 PM
I tried it, the drawing of my experiment above. using 8 disc magnets some 25 mm in diameter, one on another, and on top of it two layers of mu metal, taken from an old hard drive. i moved a head of a large screw pass it, like on the drawing, but parallel to the magnet. Yes weirdly with mu metal shielding, it worked the best, when i moved it parallel.

There seemed to be some clear propulsion, i felt no negative attraction. Not a great force, yet it was clearly felt.

The screw attracted quite a lot to the mu-metal from above, though it supposed to shield. When moving in parallel, no attraction was noticeable though.

That way when using a magnet as a stator, there can be a full circle of screws on the disk. Then there will not be the problem of tilting the poles with a full circle, that I encountered with a full circle of magnets.

Have you ever salvaged Mu-metal from an old scope tube?

It has no magnetic quality to static magnets once cut or worked on, producers of that material have to heat treat it or it's useless.
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on November 03, 2019, 06:18:58 PM
I have not processed my mu metal anyhow, i use it as it is, and when i tried it with smaller magnets, it seems to work. How to heat treat it to restore its properties after cutting? Mu metal seems to be like a soft iron what concerns cutting and such.

To measure forces, one may use this dynamometer or Newton meter, $2.80, 1 N, should be enough for small magnets.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Newton-Meter-Force-Meter-Spring-Dynamometer-Spring-Dual-Scaled-Balance-1N-25N/383050856492?hash=item592f9c382c:m:m11m1P8VDNANPV-qUbiI0SQ  That's like fish scales, hanging scales, but much cheaper. This supposed to have a precision 0.01 N, that's precise enough. Don't know how precise it really is, but it's certainly more precise than fish scales, and at least at first likely precise enough. Certainly much much better than not measuring forces at all.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on November 04, 2019, 10:14:35 AM
I bought both 1N and 25N dynamometers, these  https://www.ebay.com/itm/1N-25N-Newton-Meter-Force-Meter-Spring-Dynamometer-Spring-Dual-Scaled-Balance/362700884452?hash=item5472a849e4:m:m11m1P8VDNANPV-qUbiI0SQ , should arrive on January 1. I think this is enough to measure all kind of forces. I will tell you more about them when they arrive, i don't think it would be a great harm though to buy them now. I have seen that a spring Newton meter is very accurate.

In Amazon one can find these when searching for "spring scale". I think they should be called "Newton meter".

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on November 05, 2019, 10:26:42 AM
I don't know, the mu metal on that drawing, what mu metal supposed to do, is that it takes field lines inside itself. They likely go out from the edge, there they are not reduced but, as the edge is quite narrow, the vertical vector component of the negative attraction there should become quite short (because it is bent by the shield to be perpendicular to the direction of movement). An iron shielding supposed to do the same, and maybe it would be sufficient, but the iron shielding has to be thicker, and this would make the vertical component of the negative attraction longer.

Perhaps the screw has to be on a disk, providing only an approximation of a linear movement, may be enough. I have used computer fans with a cd (dvd) disk on it. Hard drives have very good ball bearings, but some say that they don't tolerate much horizontal forces.

I got a mu metal from an old hard drive. The magnet there also fits to the experiment, it has poles on both ends, and mu metal then has to be on it perpendicularly, it's a bit awkward, but may work. The mu metal there is in two flat pieces. I had to bend it a bit, to get it out, i don't know whether that decreased its properties. But it seems to shield well with small magnets. Otherwise, i didn't process it, just put it as it is, on the pole of the magnet.

Like the screw there, first it is attracted positively, positive attraction is in the direction where it supposed to move. Then there is negative attraction, opposite to that direction. The overunity in that is the energy of positive attraction (positive energy), minus the energy of negative attraction (negative energy). Friction should be measured separately. Then for theoretical overunity calculation, the friction energy of the positive phase (the distance moved under positive attraction) should be added to the positive energy, and the friction energy of the negative phase (negative phase friction) should be subtracted from the negative energy. Then the negative energy so calculated, should be subtracted from the positive energy so calculated.

Well the friction, this of course is more complicated. Maybe it can be assumed that like in the case of a computer fan, the radial forces don't increase friction sufficiently. Otherwise, the force attracting the stator magnet towards the disk, should be somehow measured, like maybe turning the stator magnet 90 degrees, and measuring force to the screw. Then knowing that force, we may take the simplest case. Turn the disk vertical, and hang something with that weight to it. Measure force moving a certain distance, this multiplied by the distance is all energy, and by how much it lifted the weight, is the energy in addition to friction, subtract that from all energy, and from that calculate the friction force. Something, i cannot say exactly how to do everything, as it depends on the particular case, may be simpler, may be not.

I think it can be assumed that the friction force is present even when measuring forces statically. Like when the friction is very high, the force we measure is zero, because all force goes to friction. Please correct me if you think it's different.

I don't know about that thing more, how well it works. I just wrote everything i know, so may be useful for someone. I'm unlikely to do experiments. Most important is that asymmetry of the magnetic field, this seems to be quite certain. And important is to know that there may be overunity, even if it cannot overcome friction.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: kolbacict on November 05, 2019, 07:42:01 PM
Why am I failing?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuwNxfs5ocE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuwNxfs5ocE)
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on November 05, 2019, 07:52:28 PM
Why am I failing?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuwNxfs5ocE (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuwNxfs5ocE)

I explained you, V-gate has no overunity. It is basically just magnets coming closer, and it ends when they don't come more closer and start from the beginning. For continuous overunity one has to use the asymmetry of the field, as also described above. Rather learn that.

V-gate doesn't use the asymmetry of the field, and this means that the output energy cannot be greater than the input energy. No matter what mechanism to use to gather energy, and then use it again, to move from the end to the beginning again, it just cannot work.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on November 08, 2019, 11:45:24 AM
No one says anything. Can we conclude from that that all disagree yes ;) I must admit, i wonder why people here are not interested, but i myself am not interested. Like i don't so much want to do experiments, because i know they likely cannot provide overunity greater than friction. Also, i think that several experiments already show overunity in permanent magnets that is not greater than friction, based on the asymmetry mentioned above. Thus it is like even confirmed by several experiments. So what's the use, i cannot even surprise anyone. And when i am not interested, then why should i expect that others are interested, rather selfish, isn't it?

Now one may think, doing these experiments and all of a sudden it starts to continuously rotate. Certainly not, all that using this effect in experiments can bring, is overunity that cannot overcome friction, don't expect more. Most importantly we should understand these things. Then we may find a way to achieve continuous rotation, this i think is possible when very well understanding what happens. I have seen such devices, like metal balls going through the field of the magnets with a well adjusted trajectories, they did rotate continuously, though were a very complicated devices. But based on what i know now, i can say that they maybe were not hoaxes. And their authors never said how they worked, kept it in secret, all the advantage seemed to be to surprise other people. And indeed one cannot hope more even when making such device, my concern is increasing the knowledge that the humanity has. Even then there may be no practical use of that continuous rotation.

One thought, an iron object like a screw on that drawing. What if to try an iron cylinder instead, as all this should apply to every atom in the metal. I'm not sure about that, and i don't know the reason why it maybe cannot work.

About the mu metal, i had to talk about it, as static shielding is one way to get asymmetry. I don't know much about it though. It looks like that the mu metal brings inside itself not only the field lines that go away from the magnet, but also some that go towards the other pole. Thus when moving on that vertical line, it like weakens the whole pole, not only the field lines that go away from the magnet. Because the field lines that go both directions are bent to 90 degrees to that line.

So i'm not sure whether mu metal provides more asymmetry at all, than the asymmetry that the magnet already has. Don't expect any miracle when using mu metal either.

What concerns my this experiment  https://archive.org/details/Flcm3  it is a bit simpler than i said earlier, it just has to be measured that the forces near the peak at both directions are equal. One needs a big mug or something to attach the Newton meter (spring scales) to, and then just a thread tied to the Newton meter's hook, or make ones own hook that is proper shape. Then just lift the hook with the thread vertically, in that way it is made sure that no speed is given to the disk by hand movement, in either directions.

The image below comes from the public domain image of spring scales, from the Wikimedia Commons  https://commons.wikimedia.org/wiki/File:Weeghaak.JPG  that can be used to measure forces of magnets.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: kolbacict on November 08, 2019, 03:36:23 PM
Quote
I have seen such devices, like metal balls going through the field of the magnets with a well adjusted trajectories, they did rotate continuously, though were a very complicated devices.
Finsrud device?
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on November 08, 2019, 04:24:13 PM
Finsrud device?

I saw some devices called Finsrud device, in youtube. I don't know whether they are the same, may be some roughly made worthless replicas. The one i saw, and i don't remember how it was called, was similar to that. But it looked like much more complicated. The trajectory by which the iron balls go through the magnetic fields, determine how well the asymmetry is used. Well what i see, before the ball comes, the magnet lowers, so the ball enters from the edge of the magnet, where the field is stronger. Then when the ball leaves, the magnet rises, and the field at the center of the magnet is lower. All i can figure, and i cannot be sure that any of these things work at all, but again, i think because of the asymmetry of the field a continuously rotating device may be possible. Anyway, what is necessary to make any continuously rotating device, if ever possible, is understanding these things more.

The best trajectory is likely, from side in, and then straight up. That the Lafonte scissors device that Norman made, seems to show the best. This trajectory is difficult to implement in any device. When using an iron object like a nut, not a magnet, the best may be a small disk, that rotates so that the object enters from the side, and then moves up.

A big mug, well, i don't know how precisely the distance of a mug can be adjusted. Then there can be a bolt, with a nut on it, something. Turning that bolt changes the length of a string, allowing to change the distance more precisely. Just something that i figure, may not be the best, such things require to figure out things sometimes, and be creative.

I used to use only a mounting tape, to attach everything, it can be easily removed, and things changed. Like one can attach a hook to the edge of a disk, with a mounting tape, to fold it twofold around the end of the wire, perhaps with the end of the wire bent, then stick that to the disk, it stays well in that way, i have tried it.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: kolbacict on November 09, 2019, 11:19:53 AM
http://vitanar.narod.ru/dumy_o_motore/dumy_o_motore.html (http://vitanar.narod.ru/dumy_o_motore/dumy_o_motore.html)
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on November 09, 2019, 12:00:42 PM
http://vitanar.narod.ru/dumy_o_motore/dumy_o_motore.html (http://vitanar.narod.ru/dumy_o_motore/dumy_o_motore.html)

It looks like that the Finsrud device is described wrongly there, or the author doesn't understand it. Lowering the magnet when it is attracting, takes energy, there cannot be overunity in that case. Except when the magnet is moved towards the area with a lower magnetic field at the pole. Without asymmetry of the field such device can no way work, whether it works at all, i don't know.

An iron ball is good in that it has low friction. One may try a rotating iron ball instead of a disk, though i'm not sure how good it is. One disadvantage is that i have no idea how to extract energy from a moving iron ball. With a disk that has a magnet on it it's simple, just put a coil near it.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on November 10, 2019, 01:31:43 PM
An improved image of the spring scales, again this image is public domain. Spring scales are accurate because they are always linear by the Hooke's law.

Nothing else, and what else, as no one is interested. When an overunity greater than friction, and also continuous rotation, cannot be achieved, then likely no one is interested. And i don't know whether a continuous rotation can be achieved, all i know is that the way to achieve that, is to research these things thoroughly. Because continuous rotation if possible, likely requires an exact choosing of parts and solutions. That someone tries and accidentally achieves that, this is highly unlikely, for that one should know exactly what one is doing. That's all i can say, whether continuous rotation is possible or not i cannot say.

No voices against either. Where are all the vigilant scientists who always enforce the first law of thermodynamics, all seem to be silent, none has anything to say. I don't know whether thermodynamics works at zero point, but when something comes from the zero point, then it should be considered an unknown source, because not much is known about zero point, thus overunity.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: SkyWatcher123 on November 10, 2019, 09:12:37 PM
Hi ayeaye,

Quote
No voices against either. Where are all the vigilant scientists who always enforce the first law of thermodynamics, all seem to be silent, none has anything to say.

please don't encourage them, maybe the checks have stopped rolling in to pay them, or the tides are turning towards the light of truth.
peace love light  :) 
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on November 11, 2019, 01:50:54 PM
I'm sorry, maybe i was not accurate. As i understand, when doing static measurements, that is when we don't move the object during the measurement, to get the real force, friction should always be added to the measured force. And friction is of course greater, when the radial force to the bearing is greater.

I tried a small disk with the computer fan ball bearings, a nut on the disk, and 8 of the 25 x 5 mm ceramic disc magnets one on another. When the magnet was at a certain angle, and at a certain distance, i saw that the attraction was somewhat greater in one direction than in the other direction. The speed with which it attracted was greater. The magnet had to be at some distance, there was no noticeable difference of forces when the magnet was near the disk. It didn't make the disk to rotate of course, couldn't overcome friction, and maybe also inertia. I felt that the forces there were likely great enough, so that they can be measured. That's all i can do, as i still have no spring scales and nothing to measure the forces.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: shylo on November 11, 2019, 02:19:53 PM
That's why I'm trying to build a magnetically floating rotor.
A very difficult task,without any input.
I still have more idea's, I just wish I had more time and resources.
I believe it is possible, no bearings, and reduced Lenz, Lenz free is impossible. IMO
Lenz is just another form of friction.
artv
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: sm0ky2 on November 12, 2019, 09:21:37 AM
Ayeaye
The field ‘wants’ to be spherical, round magnets help but
any magnet will round out at some distance away


And when we interact at rotating, round, angles
magnetic force can most certainly be unidirectional


The particular angle of interaction will vary with radiuses
But it is essentially the magnetic equivalent of a gravitational ‘slingshot’
The field is bi-polar, so we consider only a portion of 1/2 of the radius for the maneuver
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on November 12, 2019, 12:07:00 PM
The field ‘wants’ to be spherical, round magnets help but
any magnet will round out at some distance away

Yes but when you are near it, then it is asymmetric, and this causes overunity.

I want to measure the energies of positive and negative attraction, i will when i get the spring scales, and can afford the time. Several experiments though likely already show overunity due to asymmetry of the field. None of which can overcome friction, but for me it has a theoretical importance. And whatever may be the case, we have to make this first step first.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: kolbacict on November 12, 2019, 12:56:30 PM
Quote
as i still have no spring scales and nothing to measure the forces.
Isn't it made of plank and spring?
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on November 12, 2019, 01:15:34 PM
Isn't it made of plank and spring?

It is in fact made only of spring, and whatever on which one can write the scale. Can also be a rubber band instead of a spring, the Hooke's law applies all the same. But i don't have a spring either, and even if i had, i want to use a standard one, because of all the doubts there can be when i use one made by myself.

The simplest is like that  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jwCwwKLa0GE  but the problem with that is that the rubber band goes against the board, that should never happen during the measurement. So more ingenuity should be used to improve it.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on November 12, 2019, 02:08:18 PM
But it is essentially the magnetic equivalent of a gravitational ‘slingshot’

No. The gravitational slingshot uses the speed of the planet, to accelerate. If we approach a planet in the direction of its movement, then it accelerates us by attraction. Then if we change our direction shortly before passing the planet, then we avoid most of the negative attraction, because the planet moves further from us, and its attraction decreases. The gravitational slingshot uses the speed of the body, not an asymmetry of the field, the gravitational field can be symmetric.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: sm0ky2 on November 13, 2019, 01:36:14 AM
No. The gravitational slingshot uses the speed of the planet, to accelerate. If we approach a planet in the direction of its movement, then it accelerates us by attraction. Then if we change our direction shortly before passing the planet, then we avoid most of the negative attraction, because the planet moves further from us, and its attraction decreases. The gravitational slingshot uses the speed of the body, not an asymmetry of the field, the gravitational field can be symmetric.


The movement of the planet is irrelevant, as only the relative motion between us and the planet matters. It is in fact, impossible to distinguish wether it is us or the planet in motion.
It is the relative motion and gravitational attraction that relates to our quest.
If we encounter the field and begin attracting (or repulsion), then exit the field at an accelerated rate,
The attraction imparts energy into the moving magnetic mass.
This can be achieved using fixed arc-vectors
Field symmetry doesn’t need to be considered, because the interaction takes place entirely on one side of the meridian.



Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on November 13, 2019, 01:43:44 AM
Field symmetry doesn’t need to be considered, because the interaction takes place entirely on one side of the meridian.

Yes, not in case of the gravitational slingshot, this is how it differs.

I want all to get used to the terms "positive attraction" and "negative attraction", these are the only forces talked in this thread. Again, this thread should be named "Power from attracting magnets".

Kolbacict, to measure force, you can just like put a rubber band between two paperclips, and then measure the length of the rubber band under the force. May be inconvenient and maybe not very accurate, but can do. You need some known weights to calculate the length into newtons, like if you have some scales, measure some volume of water or such. But you only need a rubber band and two paperclips. Remember the Hooke's law  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooke's_law .

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: sm0ky2 on November 13, 2019, 01:45:15 AM
Scales may be a useful tool if you want to measure force between two repelling magnets.
I am not certain what, if anything, it will help you discern in relation to “all magnets”.


The more precise your measurement, the clearer the data becomes.
No two magnets are the same.
Even when they are precision specification engineered industrial magnets.
We can make them really close, but they are never the same.
Not only that, many of them are never even symmetrical.
N or S repulsion will show variance, and N-S attraction will vary when you flip them.


You can make your own magnetic repulsion scales by putting the magnet in a clear tube next to a ruler
Fishing scales are cheap, or you can get a precision spring scale at a cookware store for not too much

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: citfta on November 13, 2019, 12:48:56 PM


I want all to get used to the terms "positive attraction" and "negative attraction", these are the only forces talked in this thread. Again, this thread should be named "Power from attracting magnets".






The thread gets named by the person starting the thread.  And THIS thread is about repelling magnets.  If you want to start a thread with a title about attracting magnets then start YOUR OWN thread.  It is very rude to suggest the title should be changed to something else because you want the thread to be about something other than what the original poster intended.


Respectfully,
Carroll
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on November 13, 2019, 07:02:28 PM
The thread gets named by the person starting the thread.  And THIS thread is about repelling magnets.  If you want to start a thread with a title about attracting magnets then start YOUR OWN thread.  It is very rude to suggest the title should be changed to something else because you want the thread to be about something other than what the original poster intended.

I'm really sorry but, don't Norman's Lafonte scissors that he last made, use attracting magnets? And Norman started the thread, so it's for him to decide.

I don't think that threads can be renamed, but threads go where they go. Unless Norman decides otherwise, everyone is free to talk attracting magnets in this thread.

What is rude is to come in, and restrict peoples freedom, what they can and cannot talk. By someone who didn't start this thread, and has no right to decide what can or cannot be talked in this thread.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: citfta on November 13, 2019, 07:24:14 PM
I did NOT say we shouldn't talk about attracting magnets or anything else for that matter.  I think it is rude to keep insisting the name of the thread is wrong when you didn't start the thread.
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on November 13, 2019, 07:41:31 PM
I think it is rude to keep insisting the name of the thread is wrong when you didn't start the thread.

I did *not* say that the name of the thread is wrong, this is what i didn't say. I really only wanted to say that this thread now appears to be only about attracting magnets, that's all that i wanted to say. And not because it's wrong, but because of where it went.

Improved my spring scales image again, now the background is transparent. This image is public domain.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: sm0ky2 on November 14, 2019, 05:51:20 AM
We can harness the power of magnetism using either force.
Repulsion / Attraction are basically inverted


Invert your arc-path and use the other side of the magnet
Attraction arc is towards the field
Repulsion the arc is away from the field


In the attraction sense, it most resembles the gravitational assist
you arc around the field, accelerating, and leave with a higher velocity.


In the repulsion sense, the interaction takes place at the peak of the arc
as you approach the magnet, and are accelerated away along the 2nd 1/2 of the arc


It’s all about the angles and relative motion
And when you get it, you won’t worry about the negligible friction
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on November 14, 2019, 06:07:07 AM
you arc around the field, accelerating, and leave with a higher velocity

You approach the magnet (by a pole of another magnet or by an iron object) where the attraction is greater, you accelerate, then you leave where the attraction is less, decelerate, but the acceleration is greater than the deceleration, so you leave with a higher velocity. And this requires asymmetry of the field, it is impossible with a symmetric field, as then the deceleration is always equal to acceleration, when the magnet doesn't move that is.

Friction matters, one can gain speed, but for continuous rotation this speed has to be enough to approach the magnet again, due to friction the movement mostly stops right after leaving the field of the magnet.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: kolbacict on November 14, 2019, 08:39:19 AM
And how to saw off a corner of a rectangular magnet? To make it asymmetrical? Neodymium magnet is fragile, it will crumble. You tried?
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on November 14, 2019, 09:10:13 AM
And how to saw off a corner of a rectangular magnet? To make it asymmetrical? Neodymium magnet is fragile, it will crumble. You tried?

This will not make it more asymmetric i think. This asymmetry i think comes from the properties of the atoms, it is the same with any shape.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on November 14, 2019, 01:06:52 PM
http://translationportal.epo.org/emtp/translate/?ACTION=description-retrieval&COUNTRY=DE&ENGINE=google&FORMAT=docdb&KIND=A1&LOCALE=en_EP&NUMBER=3900890&OPS=ops.epo.org/3.2&SRCLANG=de&TRGLANG=en
scrolling down to :
"It is known that the force.... "

"It is known that the force exerted by two interacting magnets is much less when the magnets are displaced laterally relative to one another instead of being torn off."

It is not clear from that translation what Naudin really meant, but it looks like that the opposite is true. As there are evidently less field lines above the pole, then the forces and energy of approaching laterally should be greater than the forces and energy of approaching axially. Experiments also seem to show that.

Sorry for the late reply, but i did read again the Naudin article, and considered that to be important.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: ayeaye on November 17, 2019, 01:12:32 AM
Ok, no one has nothing to say? Norman is not back either. My spring scales have not yet arrived. When they do, then i can do the experiment, and then i may create a new thread.

The experiment that i'm going to do, is basically on the figure below. I'm going to measure the forces, and the distances moved. The disk is a core of a computer fan, with an iron nut on it.

Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: telecom on November 17, 2019, 02:37:49 AM
This is a very interesting experiment.
Just want to note that digital scales are probably more precise than the mechanical ones.
Title: Re: Power from repelling magnets
Post by: sm0ky2 on November 17, 2019, 07:23:12 AM
Ayeaye,


I think you are taking this situation too logically.
Shouldn’t worry so much about ‘field symmetry’
The field will warp and change to your approach
You want to enter in at an angle where the
boundary condition is minimal. This is not quite max acc.


The exit is sooner than you imagine as well.
It is during the transition of the arc where the approach is closest
that the moving magnet gains its’ momentum.
It is an ‘acute’ arc, the angle of which can only be determined once the
magnetic factors are known or through experimentation.


When both magnets are moving there are advantages