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Author Topic: Power from repelling magnets  (Read 18108 times)

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #90 on: November 13, 2019, 01:43:44 AM »
Field symmetry doesn’t need to be considered, because the interaction takes place entirely on one side of the meridian.

Yes, not in case of the gravitational slingshot, this is how it differs.

I want all to get used to the terms "positive attraction" and "negative attraction", these are the only forces talked in this thread. Again, this thread should be named "Power from attracting magnets".

Kolbacict, to measure force, you can just like put a rubber band between two paperclips, and then measure the length of the rubber band under the force. May be inconvenient and maybe not very accurate, but can do. You need some known weights to calculate the length into newtons, like if you have some scales, measure some volume of water or such. But you only need a rubber band and two paperclips. Remember the Hooke's law  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hooke's_law .

« Last Edit: November 13, 2019, 08:39:02 AM by ayeaye »

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #90 on: November 13, 2019, 01:43:44 AM »

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #91 on: November 13, 2019, 01:45:15 AM »
Scales may be a useful tool if you want to measure force between two repelling magnets.
I am not certain what, if anything, it will help you discern in relation to “all magnets”.


The more precise your measurement, the clearer the data becomes.
No two magnets are the same.
Even when they are precision specification engineered industrial magnets.
We can make them really close, but they are never the same.
Not only that, many of them are never even symmetrical.
N or S repulsion will show variance, and N-S attraction will vary when you flip them.


You can make your own magnetic repulsion scales by putting the magnet in a clear tube next to a ruler
Fishing scales are cheap, or you can get a precision spring scale at a cookware store for not too much


Offline citfta

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #92 on: November 13, 2019, 12:48:56 PM »


I want all to get used to the terms "positive attraction" and "negative attraction", these are the only forces talked in this thread. Again, this thread should be named "Power from attracting magnets".






The thread gets named by the person starting the thread.  And THIS thread is about repelling magnets.  If you want to start a thread with a title about attracting magnets then start YOUR OWN thread.  It is very rude to suggest the title should be changed to something else because you want the thread to be about something other than what the original poster intended.


Respectfully,
Carroll

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #92 on: November 13, 2019, 12:48:56 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #93 on: November 13, 2019, 07:02:28 PM »
The thread gets named by the person starting the thread.  And THIS thread is about repelling magnets.  If you want to start a thread with a title about attracting magnets then start YOUR OWN thread.  It is very rude to suggest the title should be changed to something else because you want the thread to be about something other than what the original poster intended.

I'm really sorry but, don't Norman's Lafonte scissors that he last made, use attracting magnets? And Norman started the thread, so it's for him to decide.

I don't think that threads can be renamed, but threads go where they go. Unless Norman decides otherwise, everyone is free to talk attracting magnets in this thread.

What is rude is to come in, and restrict peoples freedom, what they can and cannot talk. By someone who didn't start this thread, and has no right to decide what can or cannot be talked in this thread.


Offline citfta

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #94 on: November 13, 2019, 07:24:14 PM »
I did NOT say we shouldn't talk about attracting magnets or anything else for that matter.  I think it is rude to keep insisting the name of the thread is wrong when you didn't start the thread.

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #94 on: November 13, 2019, 07:24:14 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #95 on: November 13, 2019, 07:41:31 PM »
I think it is rude to keep insisting the name of the thread is wrong when you didn't start the thread.

I did *not* say that the name of the thread is wrong, this is what i didn't say. I really only wanted to say that this thread now appears to be only about attracting magnets, that's all that i wanted to say. And not because it's wrong, but because of where it went.

Improved my spring scales image again, now the background is transparent. This image is public domain.

« Last Edit: November 14, 2019, 03:27:12 AM by ayeaye »

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #96 on: November 14, 2019, 05:51:20 AM »
We can harness the power of magnetism using either force.
Repulsion / Attraction are basically inverted


Invert your arc-path and use the other side of the magnet
Attraction arc is towards the field
Repulsion the arc is away from the field


In the attraction sense, it most resembles the gravitational assist
you arc around the field, accelerating, and leave with a higher velocity.


In the repulsion sense, the interaction takes place at the peak of the arc
as you approach the magnet, and are accelerated away along the 2nd 1/2 of the arc


It’s all about the angles and relative motion
And when you get it, you won’t worry about the negligible friction

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #96 on: November 14, 2019, 05:51:20 AM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #97 on: November 14, 2019, 06:07:07 AM »
you arc around the field, accelerating, and leave with a higher velocity

You approach the magnet (by a pole of another magnet or by an iron object) where the attraction is greater, you accelerate, then you leave where the attraction is less, decelerate, but the acceleration is greater than the deceleration, so you leave with a higher velocity. And this requires asymmetry of the field, it is impossible with a symmetric field, as then the deceleration is always equal to acceleration, when the magnet doesn't move that is.

Friction matters, one can gain speed, but for continuous rotation this speed has to be enough to approach the magnet again, due to friction the movement mostly stops right after leaving the field of the magnet.


Offline kolbacict

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #98 on: November 14, 2019, 08:39:19 AM »
And how to saw off a corner of a rectangular magnet? To make it asymmetrical? Neodymium magnet is fragile, it will crumble. You tried?

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #98 on: November 14, 2019, 08:39:19 AM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #99 on: November 14, 2019, 09:10:13 AM »
And how to saw off a corner of a rectangular magnet? To make it asymmetrical? Neodymium magnet is fragile, it will crumble. You tried?

This will not make it more asymmetric i think. This asymmetry i think comes from the properties of the atoms, it is the same with any shape.


Offline ayeaye

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #100 on: November 14, 2019, 01:06:52 PM »
http://translationportal.epo.org/emtp/translate/?ACTION=description-retrieval&COUNTRY=DE&ENGINE=google&FORMAT=docdb&KIND=A1&LOCALE=en_EP&NUMBER=3900890&OPS=ops.epo.org/3.2&SRCLANG=de&TRGLANG=en
scrolling down to :
"It is known that the force.... "

"It is known that the force exerted by two interacting magnets is much less when the magnets are displaced laterally relative to one another instead of being torn off."

It is not clear from that translation what Naudin really meant, but it looks like that the opposite is true. As there are evidently less field lines above the pole, then the forces and energy of approaching laterally should be greater than the forces and energy of approaching axially. Experiments also seem to show that.

Sorry for the late reply, but i did read again the Naudin article, and considered that to be important.


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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #100 on: November 14, 2019, 01:06:52 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #101 on: November 17, 2019, 01:12:32 AM »
Ok, no one has nothing to say? Norman is not back either. My spring scales have not yet arrived. When they do, then i can do the experiment, and then i may create a new thread.

The experiment that i'm going to do, is basically on the figure below. I'm going to measure the forces, and the distances moved. The disk is a core of a computer fan, with an iron nut on it.


Offline telecom

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #102 on: November 17, 2019, 02:37:49 AM »
This is a very interesting experiment.
Just want to note that digital scales are probably more precise than the mechanical ones.

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #103 on: November 17, 2019, 07:23:12 AM »
Ayeaye,


I think you are taking this situation too logically.
Shouldn’t worry so much about ‘field symmetry’
The field will warp and change to your approach
You want to enter in at an angle where the
boundary condition is minimal. This is not quite max acc.


The exit is sooner than you imagine as well.
It is during the transition of the arc where the approach is closest
that the moving magnet gains its’ momentum.
It is an ‘acute’ arc, the angle of which can only be determined once the
magnetic factors are known or through experimentation.


When both magnets are moving there are advantages

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #104 on: November 18, 2019, 05:12:43 PM »
Kolbacict see, the rubber band below was 132 mm long with 200 g weight, i measured it by weighing the pate that i bought. In stores they sometimes have very precise electronic scales, and these are free to use. If only the store doesn't alter the scales to get some benefit, which is unlikely. With the package only the length was 77 mm, and the package weighed almost nothing. Just so that the two sides of the rubber band are almost parallel for the minimum length. It was so with my rubber band, not necessarily with yours. The measured length was all the length of the rubber band, from end to end. Now do some calculations, and apply the Hooke's law, the force in newtons is   (measured_length - 77) / 28.042 .


 

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