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Author Topic: Power from repelling magnets  (Read 18407 times)

Offline norman6538

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #60 on: October 25, 2019, 04:50:10 PM »
That Naudin work goes way back to '98 and he is impeccable. But when nothing more after years then I have to ask why and this is what I think. Force is not work. It has a distance component and that is probably what is missing to make it look usable.  That is exactly where I am stuck.
I am working on a metal window that opens and closes to turn on and off a magnetic force and I was trying to balance that like Lafonte's scissors and like 2 weights on a rope and pulley that will stay anywhere you put them just like the Lafonte linear device I posted a picture of. The balancing has failed so I'll just  work with 1 window and maybe an attraction force compensator. The problem I have is  the non linear force as the metal is  attracted  to the magnets.

I am still dizzy when I turn around but heart wise I'm OK. BUT my wife has cancer and needs surgery to remove the mass and then whatever is required. We are hopeful that it will be OK because the surgeon has done over 700 of these surgeries. If you can pray for Marian's healing and no infection after the surgery on the 30th and 31st We would appreciate it.

So I will be "magnetically weak" for a few weeks if things go well.

Norman

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #60 on: October 25, 2019, 04:50:10 PM »

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #61 on: October 25, 2019, 05:11:17 PM »
K, i wish your things go well.

Why, i think because the things are not understood. That it is about asymmetry of the field, and this asymmetry must be increased, to have better results.

The other thing is friction, there may be overunity, and experiments and even simulations show that, but it cannot overcome friction. Properly friction has to be measured, and the energy of friction subtracted from the energies. Then it may show overunity. That the energy goes to friction doesn't mean no overunity, though no use of it.

There may be asymmetry in the field, but normally it's likely not great, only a slight asymmetry, providing only a very small overunity. But there being any at all, has a tremendous importance theoretically.

We should understand what we deal with, this is the only way to find solutions to go further. The experiments now are to get that understanding.

I think that some researchers do really good work. Like Lafonte saying that there is 6 times overunity. He may be right, in some case there really may be, though in most cases maybe not. What he omits saying though, is that he likely always disregards friction.


Offline ayeaye

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #62 on: October 28, 2019, 08:34:56 AM »
We can actually see that asymmetry, we can see that there are slightly less field lines coming out of a pole in the direction from S pole to N pole, than in the other directions. I cannot attach a picture here, because all these pictures are by who knows whom copyrighted, but see like this video  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xy6H0mr3KXw . There we see the asymmetry we deal with, it is quite slight, yet clearly visible. Iron filings are small pieces of iron extracted, when a piece of iron such as a nail, is filed. It is rather delicate to use them so that they show the magnetic field well enough, showing the difference of field density, is likely especially difficult.

Now some suggest that this asymmetry can be increased, by adding shielding on the poles or such, i have not tried that and never thoroughly thought whether it really increases asymmetry.

Ok, i got one image from Wikimedia Commons  https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Magnet0873.png , so i can attach a part of it here. I don't know how well the asymmetry is seen from there, some other images show it better.


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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #62 on: October 28, 2019, 08:34:56 AM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #63 on: October 31, 2019, 11:15:20 AM »
I think that i now understand how my this experiment  https://archive.org/details/Flcm3  really worked. I remember that i had to tilt the magnets. As you can see on the drawing below, there can be possible a straight line by which a north pole of another magnet can go through the field, getting propulsion. Because the positive attraction there is greater than the negative attraction, due to the asymmetry of the magnetic field mentioned before.

This drawing doesn't show an actual magnetic field, it was drawn just to give an idea. The correct angle, etc, depends on the actual shape of the field.

Properly, this thread should be called power from attracting magnets, as the experiments here only use attraction, but when using repulsion it should be the same, only opposite.

This also seems to work based on the same asymmetry. As we see, when we know what it is about, then we see that different experiments really show the same effect.


Offline ayeaye

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #64 on: November 01, 2019, 04:21:35 AM »
Ok, some are still not able to see, so below i drew a red box around the area where are less field lines.


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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #64 on: November 01, 2019, 04:21:35 AM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #65 on: November 01, 2019, 07:32:21 PM »
An asymmetric field has overunity and can do continuous work. Now one can come up with whatever arguments that it cannot, but a simple logic says otherwise. Say that there is a 1 square foot area on earth, where gravity is 10 times less. Then we sure can move an object there, lift it up, then move out of that area, let it fall, and get much more energy than we put in, ready to move it to the area with low gravity again. Does anyone argue against?

Now how is a magnet any different? When there is an area at the pole where force is less, as seen above, then cannot we move a pole of another magnet there so it attracts, move it away, and then again towards the pole where the force is greater, getting more energy than we put in, and ready to move the pole to the area with less force again. Does anyone argue that it is not possible, when the field at the pole is asymmetric?

This asymmetry seems to be also in the Gauss equation for magnetic field. I have not tried myself, but i have seen simulation results using FEMM, that show an area with less force at the pole, just like that above. The Gauss equation for electrostatic forces has a spherical symmetry near the charge, built in, the Gauss equation for magnetic field doesn't. If it did, it couldn't likely model the real magnetic field, where such asymmetry is present, so it had to be made the way it is, That the field lines must always go loops, this doesn't really make sense, nothing moves in loops there, and may be just an artificial doctrine that enables to model fields that differ from the Coulomb model. That said, the field lines form loops of course, assuming that there really are field lines inside the magnet, where they go back to another pole. The same with the Coulomb model, except that there is no requirement for all field lines to go to the other pole in a loop without going to infinity.

Either the field itself is asymmetric, or we can make it asymmetric by a static shield, in either case the field is asymmetric. Like if we could shield that 1 square foot area on earth so that the gravity there is 10 times less, we can use it to do continuous work in the same way. Likely not possible for gravity, but may be possible for a magnetic field.


Offline shylo

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #66 on: November 01, 2019, 10:21:22 PM »
ayeaye,
do you believe the iron filings, showing the lines, have poles?
I don't think they do.
Were taught that iron will take on poles, I think that is a fundamental flaw.
Domain alignment is true ,but flipping them is without work.
artv

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #66 on: November 01, 2019, 10:21:22 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #67 on: November 01, 2019, 11:05:41 PM »
do you believe the iron filings, showing the lines, have poles?

I think they have poles, i think they are temporarily magnetized.

It is just that, when spreading iron filings evenly, and maybe a bit shaking after that, there will be less field lines where the force is less. Many images show that, so this eliminates a kind of hand error.

A pole of another magnet, i said. When there is only attraction, it can likely be even not a magnet, but also some iron object, such as an end of an iron nail or screw.


Offline ayeaye

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #68 on: November 02, 2019, 10:59:38 AM »
I tried it, the drawing of my experiment above. using 8 disc magnets some 25 mm in diameter, one on another, and on top of it two layers of mu metal, taken from an old hard drive. i moved a head of a large screw pass it, like on the drawing, but parallel to the magnet. Yes weirdly with mu metal shielding, it worked the best, when i moved it parallel.

There seemed to be some clear propulsion, i felt no negative attraction. Not a great force, yet it was clearly felt.

The screw attracted quite a lot to the mu metal from above, though it supposed to shield. When moving in parallel, no attraction was noticeable though.

That way when using magnet as a stator, there can be a full circle of screws on the disk. Then there will not be the problem of tilting the poles with a full circle, that i encountered with full circle of magnets.


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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #68 on: November 02, 2019, 10:59:38 AM »
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Offline DavidWolff

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #69 on: November 02, 2019, 04:39:54 PM »
I tried it, the drawing of my experiment above. using 8 disc magnets some 25 mm in diameter, one on another, and on top of it two layers of mu metal, taken from an old hard drive. i moved a head of a large screw pass it, like on the drawing, but parallel to the magnet. Yes weirdly with mu metal shielding, it worked the best, when i moved it parallel.

There seemed to be some clear propulsion, i felt no negative attraction. Not a great force, yet it was clearly felt.

The screw attracted quite a lot to the mu-metal from above, though it supposed to shield. When moving in parallel, no attraction was noticeable though.

That way when using a magnet as a stator, there can be a full circle of screws on the disk. Then there will not be the problem of tilting the poles with a full circle, that I encountered with a full circle of magnets.

Have you ever salvaged Mu-metal from an old scope tube?


It has no magnetic quality to static magnets once cut or worked on, producers of that material have to heat treat it or it's useless.

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #70 on: November 03, 2019, 06:18:58 PM »
I have not processed my mu metal anyhow, i use it as it is, and when i tried it with smaller magnets, it seems to work. How to heat treat it to restore its properties after cutting? Mu metal seems to be like a soft iron what concerns cutting and such.

To measure forces, one may use this dynamometer or Newton meter, $2.80, 1 N, should be enough for small magnets.  https://www.ebay.com/itm/Newton-Meter-Force-Meter-Spring-Dynamometer-Spring-Dual-Scaled-Balance-1N-25N/383050856492?hash=item592f9c382c:m:m11m1P8VDNANPV-qUbiI0SQ  That's like fish scales, hanging scales, but much cheaper. This supposed to have a precision 0.01 N, that's precise enough. Don't know how precise it really is, but it's certainly more precise than fish scales, and at least at first likely precise enough. Certainly much much better than not measuring forces at all.


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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #70 on: November 03, 2019, 06:18:58 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #71 on: November 04, 2019, 10:14:35 AM »
I bought both 1N and 25N dynamometers, these  https://www.ebay.com/itm/1N-25N-Newton-Meter-Force-Meter-Spring-Dynamometer-Spring-Dual-Scaled-Balance/362700884452?hash=item5472a849e4:m:m11m1P8VDNANPV-qUbiI0SQ , should arrive on January 1. I think this is enough to measure all kind of forces. I will tell you more about them when they arrive, i don't think it would be a great harm though to buy them now. I have seen that a spring Newton meter is very accurate.

In Amazon one can find these when searching for "spring scale". I think they should be called "Newton meter".

« Last Edit: November 04, 2019, 08:05:57 PM by ayeaye »

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #72 on: November 05, 2019, 10:26:42 AM »
I don't know, the mu metal on that drawing, what mu metal supposed to do, is that it takes field lines inside itself. They likely go out from the edge, there they are not reduced but, as the edge is quite narrow, the vertical vector component of the negative attraction there should become quite short (because it is bent by the shield to be perpendicular to the direction of movement). An iron shielding supposed to do the same, and maybe it would be sufficient, but the iron shielding has to be thicker, and this would make the vertical component of the negative attraction longer.

Perhaps the screw has to be on a disk, providing only an approximation of a linear movement, may be enough. I have used computer fans with a cd (dvd) disk on it. Hard drives have very good ball bearings, but some say that they don't tolerate much horizontal forces.

I got a mu metal from an old hard drive. The magnet there also fits to the experiment, it has poles on both ends, and mu metal then has to be on it perpendicularly, it's a bit awkward, but may work. The mu metal there is in two flat pieces. I had to bend it a bit, to get it out, i don't know whether that decreased its properties. But it seems to shield well with small magnets. Otherwise, i didn't process it, just put it as it is, on the pole of the magnet.

Like the screw there, first it is attracted positively, positive attraction is in the direction where it supposed to move. Then there is negative attraction, opposite to that direction. The overunity in that is the energy of positive attraction (positive energy), minus the energy of negative attraction (negative energy). Friction should be measured separately. Then for theoretical overunity calculation, the friction energy of the positive phase (the distance moved under positive attraction) should be added to the positive energy, and the friction energy of the negative phase (negative phase friction) should be subtracted from the negative energy. Then the negative energy so calculated, should be subtracted from the positive energy so calculated.

Well the friction, this of course is more complicated. Maybe it can be assumed that like in the case of a computer fan, the radial forces don't increase friction sufficiently. Otherwise, the force attracting the stator magnet towards the disk, should be somehow measured, like maybe turning the stator magnet 90 degrees, and measuring force to the screw. Then knowing that force, we may take the simplest case. Turn the disk vertical, and hang something with that weight to it. Measure force moving a certain distance, this multiplied by the distance is all energy, and by how much it lifted the weight, is the energy in addition to friction, subtract that from all energy, and from that calculate the friction force. Something, i cannot say exactly how to do everything, as it depends on the particular case, may be simpler, may be not.

I think it can be assumed that the friction force is present even when measuring forces statically. Like when the friction is very high, the force we measure is zero, because all force goes to friction. Please correct me if you think it's different.

I don't know about that thing more, how well it works. I just wrote everything i know, so may be useful for someone. I'm unlikely to do experiments. Most important is that asymmetry of the magnetic field, this seems to be quite certain. And important is to know that there may be overunity, even if it cannot overcome friction.

« Last Edit: November 05, 2019, 12:49:09 PM by ayeaye »

Online kolbacict

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #73 on: November 05, 2019, 07:42:01 PM »

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #74 on: November 05, 2019, 07:52:28 PM »
Why am I failing?
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=NuwNxfs5ocE

I explained you, V-gate has no overunity. It is basically just magnets coming closer, and it ends when they don't come more closer and start from the beginning. For continuous overunity one has to use the asymmetry of the field, as also described above. Rather learn that.

V-gate doesn't use the asymmetry of the field, and this means that the output energy cannot be greater than the input energy. No matter what mechanism to use to gather energy, and then use it again, to move from the end to the beginning again, it just cannot work.


 

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