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Author Topic: Power from repelling magnets  (Read 15082 times)

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2019, 07:36:05 PM »
Probably this inventor and artist shows and discuss " fuel free magnetic device"-s :
https://patentauction.com/patent.php?nb=9918

I'm highly skeptical of magnet motors, they are mostly a hoax, if not all of them, just a waste of time. This simulation done with femm though, and what i mentioned, this is a real research. And i want everyone to realize that we are in it together, we really research the same thing, the same phenomenon.

Notice that there are not so many people in this forum. I have been in this forum for years, and who always reply, are still the same a few dozen people. We talk to each other, And this is what this forum is about.


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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #45 on: October 09, 2019, 07:36:05 PM »

Offline lancaIV

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #46 on: October 09, 2019, 08:56:26 PM »
Scrolling the left side down  : "Statistics"
83501  " ( inscribed)members " ( I am here 4 x member LancaI, II, III, IV;  not abuse.  !)
mostly : 2006 "103".   

today : "44"

A relatively small active forum  ! ( + " passive"  guests)
-----------------------------

About sceptics : Brown Uni and " formula"  !  ?   Geral or only specific valid.  ? 

Only permanent magnet motor :  inertia. ?  ~ inrush voltage/ current problem from electro-magnetic motors

"hoax" : simple prototype as function/ demonstration model

             input/output, maget force lifetime et cet. as discussion theme

             coupled to generator : fixed or variable speed  ? the motor and the generator. !?

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2019, 10:13:36 PM »
Is there overunity inside that permanent magnet motor, or is there not? No, this is not an interesting question, i'm interested in researching overunity.

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #47 on: October 09, 2019, 10:13:36 PM »
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Offline norman6538

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #48 on: October 11, 2019, 08:21:08 PM »
I'm still dizzy at times but worse off because my wife might have cancer so its Dr. after Dr. and test after test.
I have made a little progress but the results are not good. The main reason is that the set and reset requires about 1 inch of movement but the "further weaker" aspect of magnets gives me only about 1/4 inch which starts off at  "further weaker". I use a variable lever so that even at
 "further weaker" work is done and more work is done as it gets "closer stronger".

I have 2 paired end to end so that the cycle is.
1. move and set the first device for power out
2. back off to unset and simultaneously set the paired device.
3. back off the paired device and simultaneously set the first device.

Norman

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #49 on: October 11, 2019, 10:11:53 PM »
Maybe get these scales. The fish scales are $5. There are similar more accurate scales, these are called "force gauge", and they are $50 and up. These are used in laboratory experiments, and properly these should be used. The fish scales help a lot and may be enough, but consider the following.

Say the measurements would show overunity. What they will then talk about, is the accuracy of the scales. Like these fish scales, their accuracy is likely not more than one ounce. This means that when it shows 5 ounces, it may be 4.5 ounces or 5.5 ounces. Better to test the actual accuracy, the data sheet usually gives some number that the instrument is not useful at all, for all such things, so they have no responsibility.

Now the error calculation requires that it should be calculated with all the worst values, and then all the best values, then the difference between them is the error. Like when we calculate the difference of energies, then the error is two times more, that is sure +/- 1 ounce. With that it may sometimes be practically impossible to determine whether the result was correct or not. While the low precision scales can be useful, it's better to have a high precision "force gauge", to avoid an unnecessary work.

I will explain, like a - b, this is the smallest when a is minimum and b is maximum. And the opposite, maximum when a is maximum and b is minimum. Thus it varies two times as much as a and b separately, the error in a - b is thus two times greater, than the error in a or b.

These permanent magnet overunity experiments, it would be better if they could be done by the simplest means, so anyone can replicate. Permanent magnets itself after all don't cost much. But because overunity is so demanding goal, it is really about a maximum efficiency, then one rather needs a high grade equipment. As unfortunate as it may be.

PS I estimated that when citfta could reduce the force of shifting the shield magnet to 2 ounces, then he may have overunity. To achieve that would likely be very difficult though, as he already uses linear movement on ball bearings. It looks like though that in spite the movement is on ball bearings, it takes quite a force to move a magnet there, even if no forces affect it. Like moving towards the shield magnet may not have any force at all, it is at least 3 ounces, as if it always requires 3 ounces to move a magnet there. I don't know. But even if he can reduce the shifting to 2 ounces, his scales would likely have not enough precision to show the overunity, as the final calculations error with the scales he used would likely be +/-1 ounce, not better. Unless he perhaps tests the scales and shows that they have a higher precision, that these scales very unlikely have.


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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #49 on: October 11, 2019, 10:11:53 PM »
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Offline norman6538

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #50 on: October 17, 2019, 03:39:16 PM »
I have been able to piddle around in between Dr. appointments and went back to the Lafonte device with an off center axle and the attracting magnets on the shorter end so they are closer and will attract. Which they do until the repel gets lined up. Then when the 2 arms are lined up the axle can be shifted to the center where equal forces will allow the 2 arms to be separated where power from attraction can be harvested again. The problem was I first made it as a rotor and due to the magnetic field rotations the 2 arms will never line up so I went to the scissors device where they will lineup and have an equal force. The trick will be where does the power come from to shift the axle. A solenoid would to that very well but it would have to connect to both axles and then release the former pivot. So it becomes a leverage shifting device with magnets. And what we are accomplishing is effectively turning the attraction on and  off to do useful work.
Then by cascading that to 2 larger devices it should be possible to get 10-20 times the power out.

Norman

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #51 on: October 17, 2019, 04:37:06 PM »
To be honest, i don't understand what you made.

The problem, can you measure? As i don't know how it works, i cannot figure out how to measure.

The problem, the citfta device, with the shield magnet and linear movement, while simple, it is likely very difficult to make. The linear movement on ball bearings, kind of metal work? And at that, it seems to me that the citfta's device doesn't even have a movement fully on ball bearings, there seem to be like two ball bearings, and the other sides are without ball bearings... And it seems that in spite of ball bearings, the friction is quite high there.

So maybe a rotary device would be better, and it may be possible to measure it too. just measure force after every small distances, even if it rotates. Cannot figure out how though, without knowing the device.

One more thing, you were not quite right. It is true that an iron shield attracts to the position, and it is like output. But the problem is, it has to be pulled out, when it is between two magnets, and this is twice as much of energy. The shield magnet in theory needs no force when shifting in and out, in theory it should completely work. In practice though, only measurements can show.


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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #51 on: October 17, 2019, 04:37:06 PM »
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Offline citfta

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #52 on: October 17, 2019, 05:09:38 PM »

The problem, the citfta device, with the shield magnet and linear movement, while simple, it is likely very difficult to make.  Anyone with some patience and normal hand tools could make what I have made.  The linear movement on ball bearings, kind of metal work? A hacksaw, a hand drill, some drill bits and a couple of files are all you need to do the metal work.  And at that, it seems to me that the citfta's device doesn't even have a movement fully on ball bearings, there seem to be like two ball bearings, and the other sides are without ball bearings...  There are 6 bearings supporting each piece of aluminum angle.   And it seems that in spite of ball bearings, the friction is quite high there.  Wrong again!  The friction is very low as you can tell from carefully watching the video.



Offline ayeaye

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #53 on: October 17, 2019, 05:32:19 PM »
"Wrong again!  The friction is very low as you can tell from carefully watching the video."

From carefully watching the video, i see that the force was 3 to 4 ounces when moving the magnet towards the shield magnet, while there shouldn't be any force at all. And there was 7 ounces of force when shifting the shield magnet. Ok, maybe because the shield magnet touched the other magnets, but even without it there was still 5 ounces of force. I don't see this as a very low friction, but of course i cannot know what it all may be caused by, i didn't do the experiment. I just say what seems to me after carefully watching the video, and i watched it very carefully. What concerns ball bearings, on the left arm i saw only two ball bearings, and i cannot figure where the others can be. I cannot be sure though, as i cannot see inside your device.

And better don't move towards the right magnet when measuring the output forces, this is wrong. Because then you add the friction force to the output force, measuring considerably more output energy than there actually is.


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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #53 on: October 17, 2019, 05:32:19 PM »
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Offline norman6538

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #54 on: October 17, 2019, 05:49:41 PM »
Attached is a photo of the off center axle (at the nut) in the attracted  position. As you can see it is easily made of tongue depressor sticks and hot glue. If you pull the attraction magnet on the left down it will jump right up because it is closer than the repel on the right due to the leverage advantage of the off center axle. The center axle is just to the right of the nut. I put this together last night in an hr. and got photos and a video. If you are a "bencher" you can to it too.
I'm sorry about the large photo, I shrunk it to 1/3 and it still got too big.
Norman

Offline ayeaye

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #55 on: October 18, 2019, 01:34:58 AM »
Attached is a photo of the off center axle (at the nut) in the attracted  position.

No i cannot tell horns or tails, sorry. You should attach a drawing or video showing how it works.

I, well, i'm into mounting tape in the experiments, and scissors, never cutting wood or whatever. Though i agree that it's doable.

Citfta, i really think that your experiment was great, for the first time a magnet device was measured. And it should work in theory too, that's the greatest. It was not the best at first, but it was a big step ahead, very important. Maybe with some improvements you can actually do it, really measure overunity. I think friction energy should be measured separately, then deleted from the output energy, which i think can only be measured static.

Honestly, if i would have to make it, i would make it cardboard tubes inside cardboard tubes, rectangular, and fixed with mounting tape. And measure only static forces. At first i would try to make it like this...

« Last Edit: October 18, 2019, 04:38:36 AM by ayeaye »

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #55 on: October 18, 2019, 01:34:58 AM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #56 on: October 18, 2019, 01:54:10 PM »
And maybe it's better to have ball bearings on both sides of the shield magnet, then it is supported on both sides, and doesn't bend that much. Just what i can figure.


Offline ayeaye

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #57 on: October 25, 2019, 12:13:05 PM »
It is not that i certainly don't understand the Lafonte device that Norman made. I guess that both pairs of magnets there attract each other. Then when we shift the axis a bit, it snaps easily to the opposite position. If i guess rightly. But the matter is that it is more difficult to understand what the overunity there may be caused by. Maybe it's because the force sidewise is greater than between opposing poles or something, something again maybe caused by the asymmetry of the magnetic field, it differing from the Coulomb model Also it is rather difficult to measure, first the force of shifting, and then the force of snapping. And both can happen at the same time. Maybe it can be approximated so that only one happens at a time. If i understood rightly, please correct me if i were wrong.

If there is overunity in that device, even when disregarding friction. and if it is caused by the asymmetry of the magnetic field that i talked about, then it may show that kind of asymmetry even better than anything else. I don't know how well i can show this, on the drawing below, a field somewhere near a pole in the Coulomb model, and in asymmetric field, just to give some idea.

Norman, it is difficult to measure. With so small magnets you should get force gauge. And you should measure what is friction. There shouldn't be any force, but i cannot be sure, properly friction should be measured under that force, like hanging weights to it.

« Last Edit: October 25, 2019, 03:29:43 PM by ayeaye »

Offline lancaIV

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Offline ayeaye

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Re: Power from repelling magnets
« Reply #59 on: October 25, 2019, 03:44:15 PM »
Yes, many may have noticed it, but have not named it what it is, asymmetry of the field. If there is such, it is because atoms are not spherical either, they are electrons orbiting a nucleus. Maybe they attract side wise better, i don't know why, electron can see electron in another atom less when sidewise, maybe. The moving electrons do work, and don't lose energy.


 

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