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Floor

• Guest
« Reply #75 on: July 06, 2019, 04:07:59 PM »
Basics of hydraulics.

Grumage

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1114
« Reply #76 on: July 06, 2019, 04:44:53 PM »
Basics of hydraulics.

Indeed.

But our ideas employ displacement, what are you trying to explain please?

Cheers Graham.

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 326
« Reply #77 on: July 06, 2019, 05:09:11 PM »
Graham,

(Floor posted while I was writing this. I'll let him explain but he's pointing out basic pressure multiplication or division with one piston having unequal surface area on each of it's faces. Also difference in motions between unequal piston diameters.)
----------------

My analysis.
Double check my figures, but I think they are correct.

Assume a working head of 2 meters
pressure at bottom = 2.844 psi dropping to 2.627 psi after up-stroke

The concertina is made to have an internal surface area of 6 square inches
2.764” diameter = 6 sq. in.

The fixed displacement piston … has a diameter of 1/2"
1/2” dia = 0.196 sq. in.

The displacement cylinder ... diameter is much smaller perhaps 3/4"
3/4” dia = 0.441 sq. in

Weight of liquid above concertina in the displacement cylinder minus the displacement piston volume
1.923 lb.

Up-force from concertina with transfer valve closed
15.765 lbs at the top of the stroke

Up-force from concertina with transfer valve open
0 lbs

My conclusion:
The inlet valve in the base is not needed.
The transfer valve is the one to be opened or closed at the end of the strokes.
If the transfer valve is the one shifted, then this will work, provided the total weight of the concertina piston plus the displacement cylinder plus the weight of liquid above the concertina is less than the up-force from the concertina (15.765 lbs).
With the transfer valve opened the liquid will seek the level of the head through the displacement cylinder with no upward force exerted on the piston. The concertina / displacement cylinder assembly is free to sink to the bottom of the stroke.
With the transfer valve closed the liquid is separated into two volumes and the head pressure will exert influence on the concertina piston bottom surface and provide 15+ lbs of lift. The liquid above the concertina piston becomes a static weight. If the static weight (liquid plus mechanical weight) is less than the lift force the concertina piston + displacement cylinder will rise.

The issue to contend with is to have a head reservoir of sufficient volume to in order to minimize the loss of head height while filling the concertina since it’s volume is much greater than the displaced volume.

Cheers

Floor

• Guest
« Reply #78 on: July 06, 2019, 05:17:39 PM »
Indeed.

But our ideas employ displacement, what are you trying to explain please?

Cheers Graham.

Its great to see the diversity of ideas and designs flowing.
There is more than one way to skin a cat.
I myself, have no intentions of presenting a design or design variations of Cadman's device.

My intention has been to present explanations of the principles involved.  This, in order
to clarify the underlying physics / principles (useful to we, the less knowledgeable in this area).

The various devices / designs / ideas  being presented involve both displacement and hydraulics.

Example: your bellows are a hydraulic pressure (PSI) device.  Gravity acting upon the supply
side tube, acts similarly to the smaller diameter syringe in my drawings (above).  While the bellows
are acting similarly to the larger diameter syringe in my drawings (above).

best wishes
floor

Floor

• Guest
« Reply #79 on: July 06, 2019, 05:42:25 PM »
Graham,

The issue to contend with is to have a head reservoir of sufficient volume to in order to minimize the loss of head height while filling the concertina since it’s volume is much greater than the displaced volume.

Cheers

Just cheat it for now (use a float valve to maintain head height) instead of...

floor

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 326
« Reply #80 on: July 06, 2019, 06:35:16 PM »
Now that I've had time to really look at it, I think Graham's design is more elegant than my own.

Way to go Graham!

Regards

Grumage

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1114
« Reply #81 on: July 06, 2019, 06:52:38 PM »
Graham,

(Floor posted while I was writing this. I'll let him explain but he's pointing out basic pressure multiplication or division with one piston having unequal surface area on each of it's faces. Also difference in motions between unequal piston diameters.)
----------------

My analysis.
Double check my figures, but I think they are correct.

Assume a working head of 2 meters
pressure at bottom = 2.844 psi dropping to 2.627 psi after up-stroke

The concertina is made to have an internal surface area of 6 square inches
2.764” diameter = 6 sq. in.

The fixed displacement piston … has a diameter of 1/2"
1/2” dia = 0.196 sq. in.

The displacement cylinder ... diameter is much smaller perhaps 3/4"
3/4” dia = 0.441 sq. in

Weight of liquid above concertina in the displacement cylinder minus the displacement piston volume
1.923 lb.

Up-force from concertina with transfer valve closed
15.765 lbs at the top of the stroke

Up-force from concertina with transfer valve open
0 lbs

My conclusion:
The inlet valve in the base is not needed.
The transfer valve is the one to be opened or closed at the end of the strokes.
If the transfer valve is the one shifted, then this will work, provided the total weight of the concertina piston plus the displacement cylinder plus the weight of liquid above the concertina is less than the up-force from the concertina (15.765 lbs).
With the transfer valve opened the liquid will seek the level of the head through the displacement cylinder with no upward force exerted on the piston. The concertina / displacement cylinder assembly is free to sink to the bottom of the stroke.
With the transfer valve closed the liquid is separated into two volumes and the head pressure will exert influence on the concertina piston bottom surface and provide 15+ lbs of lift. The liquid above the concertina piston becomes a static weight. If the static weight (liquid plus mechanical weight) is less than the lift force the concertina piston + displacement cylinder will rise.

The issue to contend with is to have a head reservoir of sufficient volume to in order to minimize the loss of head height while filling the concertina since it’s volume is much greater than the displaced volume.

Cheers

Hi Guys.

It's a pity we can't converse by other means, I hate typing!

I don't think we can dispense with the bottom admission valve as we want the concertina and displacement cylinder to collapse back to rest for the next cycle. However I have realised there might be a flaw in my idea. Upon opening the transfer valve ( top of stroke ) the bias weight along with the weight of the displacement cylinder should transfer the water into the smaller diameter cylinder above ( the collapse ) We close the transfer valve and open the admission valve. The concertina rises along with the displacement cylinder the water is now having to pass the sides of the displacer piston and through the cup washer. We open the transfer valve again, is this where things get stuck? Do we need to allow air in to get the concertina assembly to collapse for the reset? Hmmm....

Cheers Graham.

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 326
« Reply #82 on: July 06, 2019, 11:33:16 PM »
Hi Guys.

It's a pity we can't converse by other means, I hate typing!

I don't think we can dispense with the bottom admission valve as we want the concertina and displacement cylinder to collapse back to rest for the next cycle. However I have realised there might be a flaw in my idea. Upon opening the transfer valve ( top of stroke ) the bias weight along with the weight of the displacement cylinder should transfer the water into the smaller diameter cylinder above ( the collapse ) We close the transfer valve and open the admission valve. The concertina rises along with the displacement cylinder the water is now having to pass the sides of the displacer piston and through the cup washer. We open the transfer valve again, is this where things get stuck? Do we need to allow air in to get the concertina assembly to collapse for the reset? Hmmm....

Cheers Graham.

Yeah, I wish we could converse too. It would make things a lot easier.

Picture it like Floor did with the U tube. With the transfer valve open there is an unblocked path on the left from the top of the reservoir to the bottom of the concertina, through the concertina, and back up to the reservoir. The concertina is just like a dense restrictor orifice at this time sitting at the bottom of the right half of the U tube.

Now close the transfer valve and the fluid above the concertina is separated from the fluid in the left half of the U tube. Being lighter than the left fluid column the concertina, which now has a solid piston top, along with the displacement cylinder plus the smaller amount of fluid above it will rise as the two halves in the U tube seek a balance.

Open the transfer valve now that the assembly is elevated and the concertina reverts to a restrictor and being more dense and heavier than the liquid it will sink to the bottom. Your own video proved that.

Cheers

Floor

• Guest
« Reply #83 on: July 07, 2019, 07:52:06 AM »
I like Grumage's bellows usage.  Maybe bellows type boots (used to cover
front axles on trucks / autos) could be adapted to this purpose.

broli

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2243
« Reply #84 on: July 08, 2019, 09:32:01 AM »
@Floor since you grasp Grumage latest concept could you draw a cyclic diagram of that concept? I think many would struggle with all the textual descriptions here. I can even do an 3d animation if needed but need to understand it better first.

Grumage

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1114
« Reply #85 on: July 08, 2019, 07:23:04 PM »
@Floor since you grasp Grumage latest concept could you draw a cyclic diagram of that concept? I think many would struggle with all the textual descriptions here. I can even do an 3d animation if needed but need to understand it better first.

Dear broli.

I'll try to explain concept 2 verbally again, my drawing abilities are very limited in this modern age. When I was taught it was with paper and pens.       Your offer of 3D sounds wonderful, bravo.

My single drawing shows the device at rest with water from the upper cistern piped down to the underside of the bellows/concertina, admission valve closed.

Upon opening of the admission valve the water fills the bellows causing it to rise ( transfer valve is shut ) we have allowed it to rise by 150mm or 6" lifting the displacement cylinder vertically through a sliding seal in the centre of the cistern 2 meters above.

We close the admission valve and open the transfer valve. The combined weight of the " bias " and cylinder now causes the water to flow into the displacement cylinder and travel upward round the sides of the solid Steel displacer piston. The bellows have now returned to rest as in my picture.

The next upward stroke see's the bellows fill and rise again, as we have 75Lbs of force available acting against just the volume of water plus that of the bias and cylinder. The displacer which is rigidly fixed from above the device, displaces the water through a cup washer at the top.

We now open the transfer valve and the bellows and cylinder collapse once again. As the cylinder collapses any water above the displacer piston falls over the sides to refill the cistern.

Back at rest again and ready for the next cycle.

For an automatic reciprocating engine we shall have to design some mechanism to operate the two valves.

But....

This all seems far too easy, what has been missed, am I dreaming?

Cheers Graham.

Floor

• Guest
« Reply #86 on: July 09, 2019, 04:30:31 PM »

I forgot to mention that the fixed displacement piston is of high density ( Steel ) that has a diameter of 1/2" ( 12mm ) and is solid. The water flows around the 1/8" 3mm gap via displacement. A simple Leather cup washer ( bicycle pump style ) is fitted at the top so that on the upstroke the water can pass by it easily but is then held in suspension and just flows over the edge of the cylinder wall on the return stroke. Refilling the cistern.

Cheers Graham.

Thanks Grumage, wasn't totally sure.

One more proof / drawing, below. The last of that part of my endeavor

@Broil
Yes I will do a flow diagram.  But don't jump on the 3d until
I have made certain with Grumage that my interpretations are correct.

thanks
floor

Grumage

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1114
« Reply #87 on: July 09, 2019, 05:23:29 PM »
Hello All.

I felt that perhaps my description of operation was lacking one detail, I'd forgotten to mention that the system had been previously purged of any air.

Sorry for any inconvenience.

Cheers Graham.

Floor

• Guest
« Reply #88 on: July 10, 2019, 09:50:44 PM »

Although the proofs I presented come at Cadman's design in a sort of backwards and upside down
manner, they definitely verify his design as being able to use gravity as an energy source.

Here is my summation.
floor

• Guest