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Author Topic: 3 frequency methods  (Read 8999 times)

Offline Grumpy

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3 frequency methods
« on: December 18, 2006, 05:08:38 AM »
I am starting this topic for those following the 3-frequency method.

The XR2206 is cool, but for rock-solid adjustable frequencies - I recommend the Vackar VFO (variable frequency oscillator) - also known as the Tesla oscillator - I have no idea why it is called this.

Anyway, the Vackar circuit is absolutely rock solid - one of the best ever devised.  Developed by Jiri Vackar in the 40's.  This will easily get you into the mhz range and keep you there.

http://www.pan-tex.net/usr/r/receivers/elrvfo.htm#history
www.qsl.net/va3diw/vackar.html
www.pan-tex.net/usr/r/receivers/elrvfo.htm

If you are using pulses - don't bother with this - you don't need it, but it is pretty nice if you ever need a VFO.

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3 frequency methods
« on: December 18, 2006, 05:08:38 AM »

Offline starcruiser

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Re: 3 frequency methods
« Reply #1 on: December 18, 2006, 03:31:30 PM »
I'll need to checkt this out. BTW, it was stated prior in the original SM thread that pulses of 10uS or less is what is required. If we take this number and work it out we find that a squarewave of 50Khz would put us at 20uS (half of that is of course 10uS).


      1               1
f=  ---   or  t= -----
      t                f


I have noted while testing that when the frequency is above this point reducing the pulse width does not seem to show any improvement in signal output.

We do require multiple signal sources that are adjustable (able to finely adjust the frequency) so we can determine the sweet spot for the 3 frequencies.

Just my .02

Offline Grumpy

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Re: 3 frequency methods
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2006, 04:21:22 PM »
Quote
10uS or less


I have pointed that out a few times.

You need to take into account the flow of charge in the conductor - nothing near light speed - related to the level of current.  Small current = low speed charge flow, high current = high speed charge flow. 

For comparison, the speed of current flow in a normal 100w, 120vac lamp is something like 3 inches an hour.

According to Tesla, reducing the pulse width to below 100 ns prodused cold electricity and pretty lighting effects.  the three things that Tesla identified as relavent are voltage, pulse width, and no reversal of current.

Look at all of the ringing you get with the 3-freaks method - signal doesn't know wether to crap or go blind.

Quote
I have noted while testing that when the frequency is above this point reducing the pulse width does not seem to show any improvement in signal output.
  - increase the "pulse repitition rate" and/or voltage level.

While I'm on the keyboard, there is but one field that could come out of that wire - perpendicular to it - when the flow is suddenly halted.  This particular field could give a crap less about conservation, as it is not conservative.


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Re: 3 frequency methods
« Reply #2 on: December 18, 2006, 04:21:22 PM »
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Offline Grumpy

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Re: 3 frequency methods
« Reply #3 on: December 18, 2006, 05:33:18 PM »
XR2206:

source in US: http://www.unicornelectronics.com/IC/EXAR.html
(Also Jameco carries them.)

Exar also makes an XR2207 and XR2209. 

See some examples and datasheets below:

Offline Grumpy

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Re: 3 frequency methods
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2006, 06:45:00 PM »
Really in the zone today.  Been thinking about the cryptic reference to "3-frequencies" and remembered something about harmonics in waveshaping circuits.

Looking into this, I find that waveshaping circuits combine the fundamental frequency with the harmonics to create the waveshape that is desired. 

For example, a squarewave may theoretically have an infinite number of only odd-order harmonics.

In the peaked wave, harmonics such as the third, seventh, and so forth, cross the reference line 180 degrees out of phase with the fundamental; the fifth, ninth, and so forth, cross the reference line in phase  with the fundamental. So, not just any old harmonic will do!

Sawtoothed waves are comprised of odd and even such as the fundamental, 2nd and third on up to 30th or more depending on the shape - ringing all the way.

Very interesting.  I'm thinking that synthesized waveforms may not be up to the task.  Not that it will not work, just not the direct route.



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Re: 3 frequency methods
« Reply #4 on: December 18, 2006, 06:45:00 PM »
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Offline starcruiser

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Re: 3 frequency methods
« Reply #5 on: December 19, 2006, 02:04:33 AM »
Really in the zone today.  Been thinking about the cryptic reference to "3-frequencies" and remembered something about harmonics in waveshaping circuits.

Looking into this, I find that waveshaping circuits combine the fundamental frequency with the harmonics to create the waveshape that is desired. 

For example, a squarewave may theoretically have an infinite number of only odd-order harmonics.

In the peaked wave, harmonics such as the third, seventh, and so forth, cross the reference line 180 degrees out of phase with the fundamental; the fifth, ninth, and so forth, cross the reference line in phase  with the fundamental. So, not just any old harmonic will do!

Sawtoothed waves are comprised of odd and even such as the fundamental, 2nd and third on up to 30th or more depending on the shape - ringing all the way.

Very interesting.  I'm thinking that synthesized waveforms may not be up to the task.  Not that it will not work, just not the direct route.




So maybe a harmonic rich oscillator is the way..... Hmm Intersting idea

So is that why you started the other thread with th astable oscillator?

I am wondering if the oscillator might benefit from a bandpass filter (or 3), I was thinking about the video of the large SM TPU and thought the coils int he center looked like parts from a speaker crossover, Did Steven use these components because he had them on hand? Also he mentions the 5Khz frequency, this is in the Mid's for a speaker crossover isn't it?  More to ponder I guess.

Offline Grumpy

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Re: 3 frequency methods
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2006, 02:52:24 AM »
filter out the crud that you don't want.

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Re: 3 frequency methods
« Reply #6 on: December 19, 2006, 02:52:24 AM »
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Offline supersam

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Re: 3 frequency methods
« Reply #7 on: December 19, 2006, 05:54:19 AM »
hey eveyone,

not to think i know everyting but, steven said, when you start to look at the worst possible scennarios then you will see all kinds of of things, including alot of hash and all kinds of frquencies."

lol
sam

Offline otto

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Re: 3 frequency methods
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2006, 10:55:55 AM »
Hello all,
something for you to think about:
when I pulse my TPU I see my voltage adding and its OK. I see a lot of "hash" and its NOT OK. Why?
In the moment when my light bulb 60W is glowing, say at a half, I see on my scope the hash is gone!! I see only clear kicks at various frequencies. In this moment "PESE" helped me. To be short, I connected the 3 drains(collectors) from my MOSFETS TOGETHER.
And here is what I have now:
I still have a lot of hash in my signals BUT when Im pulsing my coils I have a adding VOLTAGE and ADDING CURRENT!!! Thats easy to see with my ANALOG amperemeter. I dont have to tell you the relationship of voltage and current.
The bad in this all is a lot of hash. As Grumpy and mramos said FILTER, again FILTER.
there was mentioned a tube amplifier.... Tubes have not so much harmonics, they are "cleaner". SS are very "dirty". They produce a lot of harmonics and this is the "dirt".
Again I got a lot of help from "PESE". Think, what will happen if we have on our 3 MOSFETs nice, clean signals (kicks) and with such kicks we pulse our coils. I want to say 1 MOSFET 1 frequency and this all driven with a Main oscillator. This main oscillator synhronises the 3 oscillators with the MOSFETs. I have NOT done this yet but I will.
In this moment, when I pulse my coils, say at 20 microsec. I can see suddenly a new pulse is forming and the frequency is then only 10 microsec. What I will say, it looks to me the signal is phase shifted at 180? and of course 90? and I dont like it.

Otto


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Re: 3 frequency methods
« Reply #8 on: December 19, 2006, 10:55:55 AM »
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Offline Grumpy

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Re: 3 frequency methods
« Reply #9 on: December 19, 2006, 03:55:54 PM »
Otto,

Thanks much for explaining this to everyone.

I suspect a relationship between the phases of the signals and the voltage/current, but I have not determined how it all works.  To start, I am trying to keep everything in phase going to the TPU.  Filtering is all passive. 

LCR filter will not induce a phase shift at center frequency, but will shift above and below -ask Pese!

I can see no reason, in any realm of theory, for three frequencies except to obtain larger pulses and I can get that through more direct means.

You may have "ringing" from the mosfets switching very quickly, try to dampen.  If you smoke the gate, use a zener diode to limit the voltage at the gate.

Hmm, never thought of differentiating (low pass filter) the mosfet output - probably blow the caps apart - he he he!

Voltage quadruple through mosfet to differentiator - should get a wicked pulse.

One last thing, anyone every tried a Marx or Fitch pulse generator?

Offline Grumpy

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Re: 3 frequency methods
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2006, 12:32:43 AM »
Hey, where do I plug in my coffee maker at?

Thanks Mramos!

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Re: 3 frequency methods
« Reply #10 on: December 20, 2006, 12:32:43 AM »
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Offline AhuraMazda

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Re: 3 frequency methods
« Reply #11 on: December 20, 2006, 01:14:15 AM »
mramos,
You will need heatsink(s) for your devices.

AM

Offline Grumpy

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Re: 3 frequency methods
« Reply #12 on: January 04, 2007, 11:04:51 PM »
3 frequencies:

Fundamental + 3rd harmonic + 5th harmonic produces a quare wave with fairly straight sides.  Gives you a faster rise and fall.

 

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