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Author Topic: lead ball magnet motor  (Read 1784 times)

Offline juliotony

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lead ball magnet motor
« on: March 02, 2019, 03:01:14 PM »
This mi idea

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lead ball magnet motor
« on: March 02, 2019, 03:01:14 PM »

Online kolbacict

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Re: lead ball magnet motor
« Reply #1 on: March 02, 2019, 05:38:56 PM »
And in the gland to check it is weak?
(in the practice)

Offline Low-Q

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Re: lead ball magnet motor
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2019, 04:12:51 PM »
Lead does not shield magnetism. Just saying.


Vidar

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Re: lead ball magnet motor
« Reply #2 on: March 03, 2019, 04:12:51 PM »
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Online Thaelin

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Re: lead ball magnet motor
« Reply #3 on: March 05, 2019, 09:52:39 AM »
  But have to admit, non magnetic and will roll with the flow. Gravity will have a definite effect on it. A few mags and 3  3D printed plates with slots in the middle would make it. Doubt that one slot could make it spin. Three, well who knows.  Think its a fun project to play with.  Now, where to find .5" lead ball bearings?

Offline gyulasun

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Re: lead ball magnet motor
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2019, 11:03:43 AM »
Lead does not shield magnetism. Just saying.


Vidar
Hi Vidar,
Indeed,  lead does not shield magnetism. 

Here is the animation of his setup: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CldtzxgcrQg   

(The repel-out force at around the 5 o'clock position when rotor magnet is kicked out should be high enough to be able to lift up the ball as high as the 12 o'clock position of the ball, to have chance for making another rotor revolution. 
The ball have a certain motive energy gained from the fall from about 8 o'clock towards 6 o'clock, this energy adds to the kick-out force. )

EDIT :  I just read the inventor's comment below the video and he wrote to somebody the setup is shown from top view. This means the rotor disk is horizontal so the "modus operandi" differs from what I wrote above: no gravity involved.
So it is the inertia of the moving ball which pushes the rotor magnet through the sticky repel point at the moment of entering the stator magnet ramp (at around the 10 o'clock position).  The ball received its kinetic energy from the kick out force the moment the rotor magnet leaves the stator ramp.

Interesting setup,  should be tested to say whether it is able to operate continuously or not.
Gyula

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Re: lead ball magnet motor
« Reply #4 on: March 05, 2019, 11:03:43 AM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: lead ball magnet motor
« Reply #5 on: March 06, 2019, 02:20:12 PM »
Hi Gyula,


Tha magnetic force must accelerate the ball in addition to the magnet.
That will prevent the ball to achieve enough angular momentum to do useful work.
This motor should work better without the ball, but still not overunity. My guess.


Vidar


Offline gyulasun

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Re: lead ball magnet motor
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2019, 03:45:12 PM »
Hi Vidar,

I think you mean the stator magnets in the circle should also give an additional acceleration to the ball, right? 

But the ball is chosen as made of lead i.e. non magnetic material. The problem with your suggestion is that in this setup if the ball is ferromagnetic, then it creates an attractive sticky point when just about leaving the stator magnets ramp.

Without having any ball on the rotor, this setup has no any chance for continuous operation. And it is even not enough to have the ball on the rotor, it should be made freely movable in that (slightly less than) quarter circle path near the circumference of the rotor to be able to help the rotor movement at all. 
You can watch in the animation video that after starting the setup by 'hand', at video time 1:28, and the rotor magnet makes a turn and arrives at the sticky point (1:30), the sudden stop of the rotor makes the lead ball to continue movement in the direction of rotation because of the inertia of the ball. The ball has the kinetic energy from the rotor because they move together most of the time and the rotor gets its rotational energy from the magnetic kick out of the rotor magnet when it is leaving the ramp.

Now that the ball continues moving in the direction of rotation while the rotor is quasy stopped by the sticky point,  the kinetic energy stored in the ball is supposed to defeat the repel force between the rotor magnet and stator entry magnet.  If it defeats, then the cycle can start again. If the ball does not gain enough kinetic energy while rotating from the kick out point to the sticky point, then the setup stops, of course. 

Hopefully it is clear now how this is supposed to operate. 

Gyula

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Re: lead ball magnet motor
« Reply #6 on: March 06, 2019, 03:45:12 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: lead ball magnet motor
« Reply #7 on: March 06, 2019, 05:02:47 PM »
I understand that the ball isn't magnetic. What I wrote might not be clear :-).
The magnetic force between the statormagnets and the rotormagnet must accelerate the ball, since the ball is a part of the rotating mass.
Accelerating the ball requires energy. This energy will cause the acceleration to not achieve enough angular velocity for the ball to kick the rotormagnet pass the point where the rotormagnet is repelled or sticked.
You could likely add a fixed mass to the rotor because it would need the exact same energy to accelerate. It does not help with a track where the ball can roll freely then slam into the end of the track.


While the ball rolls freely, the rotor will at the same time be less massive, and loose angular momentum. Loosing just as much as the ball provides back when it hits the end of the track.


The impact in this particular design is limited to the stored kinetic energy in the ball that it got from the acceleration.


Therefor the ball will not kick the rotor pass the repelling or sticky spot.


Vidar.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: lead ball magnet motor
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2019, 09:16:43 PM »

Yes, the ball is part of the rotor, I agree.  What you say that the acceleration of the mass of the rotor + ball received from the kick out force may not be enough to toss the rotor magnet through the sticky point is also ok,  this is the crucial detail for this setup to work or not. 

It is good to follow the ball moving in the animation video with respect to the rotor disk: it moves together with the disk (i.e. does not roll) from roughly 7:00 at the bottom to roughly 11:00 (rotation is in CCW direction) and it rolls roughly from 11:00 to 7:00 while it bumps the rotor at around 9:00. 
This means roughly 75 % moving together with the rotor disk and only in the rest 25 % is rolling. So what you mention for the rotor as becoming 'less massive' and 'losing angular momentum' due to rolling is not so severe, about 25 % or so.
And you cannot forecast in advance that this loss in rotor momentum (in whatever %) may represent just as much loss as the ball would provide back when hitting the end of the track. This is because the magnets strength and the mass of the ball are not directly but indirectly related to each other, surely there should be a 'sweet' ratio between them.
Whether this 'sweet' ratio insures a continuous rotation or not, only tests can tell.   8)

Gyula

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Re: lead ball magnet motor
« Reply #8 on: March 06, 2019, 09:16:43 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: lead ball magnet motor
« Reply #9 on: March 06, 2019, 09:49:19 PM »
What software is used in the video?
Vidar

Offline gyulasun

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Re: lead ball magnet motor
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2019, 10:05:04 PM »
I think Algodoo   http://www.algodoo.com/

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Re: lead ball magnet motor
« Reply #10 on: March 06, 2019, 10:05:04 PM »
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Online Thaelin

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Re: lead ball magnet motor
« Reply #11 on: March 07, 2019, 09:24:24 AM »
  Just a thought here but I am going to go after a  8" rotor version with 3 slots and was wondering if youcould run a steel ball or maybe a stainless one "316" on a separate wheel. Then you would have the
magnetic portion away from the metal portion. This idea is getting the better of me. I have some .5 " ballsfrom  different source. Not sure that would have the mass needed tho. Possibly a .75 or 1 inch may bebetter. Anyhow, soon as the S10 arrives, I will be making some platters for it. Ah the fun of it.

Offline gyulasun

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Re: lead ball magnet motor
« Reply #12 on: March 07, 2019, 10:53:50 AM »
Hi Thaelin,
IT is a good idea to separate the ball movement from the stator magnet ramp vicinity. This way even a magnetizable ball could be used for the rolling balls woithout being affected by magnetism. 
I think if you use small sized magnets in the stator ramp first, then it may be easier to arrive at the kick out force close to a value which would be the best for the ball or balls mass.  Or, if you have already got given sized magnets, then it is the distance between the stator and rotor which can be varied in this respect.  Probably using only 1 ball as a first attempt could be advisable to 'feel the forces'.  Using more than one ball might cause synchronity problems between a given kick out moment and the moving of the balls,  (but  maybe this could not be a problem)

Gyula

 

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