I don't know, I feel like we're digging too much into the 'resonant' thing. I feel this is not the key. I think that the frequency of the high voltage pulse in WFC is important in the sense that the WFC must be able to accumulate charge (see the step voltage charging in SM patent) without introducing much current into it.

If you read SM patent WO9207861A1, you'll found out that different WFC configuration requires different "resonant" frequency. well, this didn't ring any bell in my head, cause I feel that the resonant frequency of water should be fixed regardless of WFC configuration. Ofcourse there are different kinds of water (impurities bla bla bla) that might justify the frequency difference but we are specifically targeting the H2O, not the impurities. Meaning the resonant frequency of H2O should remain the same, regardless of any impurities presence. We are not trying to resonate the impurities, just the H2O.

I think is the the high electric field (high voltage) that decomposes the water, not the frequency. The frequency is needed only as a way to "charge" the WFC without consuming much current. The water in WFC will decompose only when the WFC charge reaches high voltage (reaches water dielectric breakdown voltage). This way Stanley is able to get hydrogen from much less current.
 
In fact we don't need any kind of frequency AT ALL to decompose water (or to break down a dielectric in general), we just need a dc electric field (dc voltage), that all, PERIOD. We don't need high current, frequency etc.

If we treat water as a dielectric and we want to break down the water 'dielectric' to get hydrogen (& oxygen), actually what we need is just to expose the dielectric with a dc electric field (dc voltage) higher than its withstanding voltage strength (dielectric strength).

We know the dielectric strength of water, so we pretty much know the voltage (electric field) required to break down water in a specific distance. Now the challenge is to prevent current flow in the water. One way is like what Stan Meyer did, using high voltage pulses.

There is another way, that is to cover the electrode with material that can block the current flow, but do not block the electric field. (material with high dielectric constant & dielectric strength, like certain type of ceramic) Once you can do this, you can just use dc high voltage, no need frequency or any complicated electronics.

Look at patent US4427512 :
"WATER DECOMPOSITION METHOD AND DEVICE USING IONIZATION BY COLLISION" invented by Tay-Hee Hau, Korea, Jan 24, 1984

http://www.waterfuelcell.org/UpdatePage.html

This way you ABSOLUTELY minimize the current flow, yet still getting that hydrogen gas.
Now the problem is where can I buy the ceramic with the correct property My background is electronics, not much on material things.

@kentoot
"In fact we don't need any kind of frequency AT ALL to decompose water (or to break down a dielectric in general), we just need a dc electric field (dc voltage), that all, PERIOD. We don't need high current, frequency etc."

Okay, then what's to keep that voltage from arcing between the electrodes when y'all get it crankin' high enough to split water?

I think that's where the pulses come in; don't let it build enough charge (=amps)  to jump the gap.

And with resonance there's a voltage spike in the tank circuit- out of phase, but the peak is still there, with less input  emf.

I thought that's what Meyer's was after, but I ain't made it happen yet, so mebbe I'm don't get it after all.

Keith

Guys,

Well if it is a dielectric failure of the WFC, then the resonance is the sought after quantity.

Think about it, if the size of the WFC changes so does the capacitance right? So you include the inductors on either end of the WFC to create the ping pong effect of voltage and current between the coils and the WFC, the high voltages created due to the resonance effect will then cause the failure you are looking for, simple.

Now if you can match the resonance of the WFC and inductors to the NMR of the water then you should get a flash conversion, no?

The only issue here is when you convert the water to its basic components then the WFC capacitance changes hence the resonant freq changes.

Well, I don't know Carl, there too many theories / explanations floating around about the WFC. You might have a point there, I mean nobody knows for sure, right ? I'm just trying to see things from a different angle.

From my experience, when I see a transformer (& inductors), diode and capacitor (WFC) in that configuration, I see a voltage step-up circuitry. That's why Stan was able to produce high voltage pulses from a lower (but wider) voltage pulses. And when the input pulse is off, there's another pulse coming out because of the back emf (of the transformer & inductor). So in my opinion this high voltage pulses do not require any new electronic theory, this is just from the existing theory of transformer, inductor & step-up circuitry.

So after Stan got the high voltage pulses going, how did he manage to charge the WFC ? I think this needs experimenting. Like what is the frequency of the HV pulse for a particular WFC ? Also what is the required amplitude of the pulse, what is the rest time between train of pulses and so on. For this I believe we need to get down 'dirty' and try to build a WFC for ourselves, there's no other way. Once we can see the WFC charging (voltage buildup between the electrodes) I think we have ourselves a Stan WFC replication.

I think it's very critical that when we experiment we know what to observe. Bubbles coming out from the electrodes is not important, as it could be just normal electrolysis. But one thing specific to Stan's WFC is the voltage build-up across the electrodes. We have to observe the electrode's voltage, I think this is quite critical. If we see the electrode's voltage rising upon each incoming pulse (step charging the WFC) then I think we might just hit the jackpot.

Also I think Stan's schematics is completely sound & valid, electronically speaking. It should do the job very well, we should just follow Stan's circuitry. In my opinion modifying it will just create more frustration & waste more time.   

Dave,
I've got to say that's one great work of art you have there. simply amazing !!

From my understanding, the choke coils are tuned to resonance only to help deflect electrons away from the cell. the deflected electrons are then used in a load such as a light bulb. whats left in the cell is very little current and very high voltage potential. The liberated electrons from the splitting of the water are used as kind of like replacements for the ones that were deflected to complete the circuit. So, it's neither resonance nor a certain frequency that directly affects the splitting of the water, it's the very high voltage potential. The higher the voltage, the more attracted the the polarized particles of the water molecule become. When a state of resonance is reached (capacitive and inductive reactances equal), the two impedances cancel each other out and the total impedance drops to zero! Extremely high voltages can be formed across the individual components of series LC circuits at resonance, due to high current flows and substantial individual component impedances. The total impedance of a parallel LC circuit approaches infinity as the power supply frequency approaches resonance.

The gated pulses or duty cycles, I believe, were not stepped up in any way. Think of it as bending a wire back and forth till it breaks. several pulses and snap! Major gas release. repeat. I could maybe see the falling impedance making it seem as if the voltage or current were rising?

Some stuff here you might want to take notice of, apparently there is something missing with the published Lawton documents (Stanley Meyers demo cell replication).....
It seems like there are high voltage pulses missing from nearly all Meyer replications....

Read it for yourself:

http://my.opera.com/H2earth/blog/show.dml/779891


Technological Development

Over the past week, two inquisitive electrical engineers working with the H2earth Institute have apparently debugged the Meyer Replication document that has circulated on the Internet in PDF since it was compiled for the Practical Guide to Free Energy Devices from the work of U.K. Research Engineer Dave Lawton, in June of 2006.

While several investigators have attempted to replicate the Water Fuel Cell, Mr. Lawton appears to have most reliably succeeded. From the schematics compiled on his behalf for posting, it was anticipated that numerous other validations would soon follow. However, several experimenters have faithfully reproduced the published circuit, delivering the stipulated frequency, voltage, and waveform, to no effect.

We know why. The proper Frequency, Voltage, and Waveform are necessary, yet insufficient preconditions for the Meyer effect to occur. Modern electronic components are deceptively capable; people assume a MOSFET will perform all of the functions of larger, older classes of discrete components. Not so. The Resonant Charging Chokes in Meyer's schematics were not there for decoration. His resonant phenomena are more complex than simply shaking the water apart. There is electrical resonance in the circuit, there is electrical resonance in the water, and there is acoustic resonance in cell itself. There are likely standing wave amplification effects. Any harmonic and phase relationships between these electromagnetic and mechanical oscillations will be multivariant, and take years to fully characterize; fortunately, the WFC can be made to work before the science catches up to the engineering.

The first Lawton replication of the WFC utilized a modified alternator; it introduced the desired effects, and yielded gas production 3x Faradic levels, for the 56 watts of power provided to the cell. Based on this, a solid state schematic was designed, represented in CAD, and published, which would ostensibly offer the same performance as the clunky electromechanical alternator version. But, not so fast! A copper wound, ferrite rod Inductor, incorporated into Mr. Lawton's subsequently constructed solid state circuit (but not into the already published plans), made all the difference. The second Lawton replication, using the solid state circuit, again gave remarkable results.

Working directely with Dave Lawton and a brilliant engineering student in Central Florida who had constructed a beautiful replication of the WFC, the Institute's engineers were able to discover why the UK cell performed, while the [apparently identical] Florida cell yielded only the expected Faradic equivalent gas as it operated, while all of the signal parameters seemed the same. The resonance effects of the Inductor are subtle, yet profound. A "sidewards jitter", thought to be a scope artifact, turned out to indicate the presence of very brief (possibly <75ns), very sharp (possibly >35Kv) high voltage spikes, which Mr. Lawton's venerable analog instrumentation apparently missed due to the lower sampling rate of his occiloscope.


As this is being written, the UK cell is being outfitted with new precision gas flow instrumentation for a new series of test runs, and the Florida cell (already so equipped) is being given its missing Inductor. Within days, they will be operated in tandem, and, it is hoped, their levels of performance synchronized and thoroughly documented. Yet to be examined is the fact that while Meyer's patent contained just the one Resonant Charging Choke, his later Technical Brief showed two of them, one on either side of the cell in the circuit.


Robert
 
 

@Robert
Excellent work, I also feel that the high voltage pulses is quite important in charging the WFC. I think the central issue of the WFC is to be able to accumulate charge and raise the WFC voltage.

From what I've seen in Stan's patent (WO9207861), the 2 inductors on either side of the WFC is actually part of the step-up transformer, they are not standalone inductors. This is because they are also wound on the toroid core of the transformer, they receive the flux from the primary winding, and so they become part of the secondary windings of the transformer.

Please also note that the 2nd inductor on the bottom of the WFC is meant to have variable winding. By looking at how this inductor is wound & connected with the transformer and the WFC, I would say that this inductor is actually working AGAINST the transformer & the top inductor. I would guess this serves as HV pulse damper, so Stan can adjust & tune the HV pulse amplitude. Maybe it's related to the WFC's geometry and conductivity of the water. If the HV pulse amplitude is too high maybe it will cause a spark / current flow across the WFC electrode. So my guess is that the variable inductor on the bottom side is meant for HV amplitude tuning.

I don't have much experience with electronics, but I would like to build this device. How do I go about building a variable charging choke?

I get the part about the ferrite rod, but do I wrap the wire with one coil and then wrap over that with a separate coil?
In this example:
(http://blog.waterforfuel.com/images/42216-38608/true_vic_200.jpg)
After wrapping the primary coil, do I then wrap the first of 3 choke coils over that? Or should I make a toroid and have them all spaced out?

Thanks for you help.
Chuck