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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: Low-Q on February 16, 2019, 08:08:26 PM

Title: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: Low-Q on February 16, 2019, 08:08:26 PM
Hi,


Look at the attached image. This is essentially two "wheels" that is fixed in an angle of +/- 10°. with two chains (It can be bicycle chains) that is looped around four pulleys each.
When we turn the wheels, B gets narrower and D gets wider. The narrowest part is at position C. The widest part is at position A.
Position A has more ferromagnetic mass than C. So A is more attracted to the magnet than C.
As A turns clockwise towards position C the ferromagnetic mass decrease.
So the operation is simple. A chain have a constant length. Chain A-C is just as long as chain B-D. As one side widens, the other side gets narrower to keep the chain in tension all the time.
This will reduce ferromagnetic mass, close to the magnet, as the chain gets narrower. This will result in a greater magnetic attraction from one side of the wheel.
What do you think? What did I miss out?


Vidar
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: Low-Q on February 16, 2019, 08:26:35 PM
Some confusions on A,B,C and D. It should be corrected in the first post now.


Vidar
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: shylo on February 17, 2019, 10:25:11 PM
Not sure I understand, but wherever the mass of attraction changes from less
to more will be the balance point, It will just come to rest.
IMO artv
 
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: Low-Q on February 17, 2019, 10:33:42 PM
As the vertical part of the chain gets shorter as it approach the magnet, the chain also moves across the wheels diameter, away from the magnet.
This would probably be the only possible reason why this design won't work. I'm however not shure if this part of the chain (across the diameter) will be much attracted to the magnet, or if the magnet some how wants to extend the vertical chain, which would force the chains to go the other direction.
I would assume that the magnetic field prefer the vertical chain. Since it is locked by the fixed wheels and pulleys.


We'll see. I'll order som thin iron chain from ebay.


Vidar
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: Low-Q on February 18, 2019, 02:18:17 PM
Not sure I understand, but wherever the mass of attraction changes from less
to more will be the balance point, It will just come to rest.
IMO artv
Most probably. I first visualized this wheel as a gravitywheel where the widest part was on one side, but mass is displaced upwards all the time while the wheel turns, and that will balance the whole system. So I thought maybe magnetism would be different. Probably not. We'll see. The experiment is very easy to do. It's worth a shot🙂


Vidar
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: MagnaProp on February 19, 2019, 02:16:07 AM
I like the thinking behind this however, I don't think this boat will float.

Issue I see is that even though A is larger than B, B is closer so it can possibly be more attracted to the magnetic bar, preventing A from getting any closer. I think A and B will find a neutral sticky spot and not move past it.

I've noticed that magnetism doesn't appear to fade off linearly. It dissipates rather quickly. One reason why small RC drones can have a magnetometer that is not adversely affected by all the powerful neodymium magnets that are in the surrounding motors.
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: Low-Q on February 19, 2019, 10:23:59 AM
@MagnaProp


Magnetic fields weakens to 1/4 for each 2x distance, just like gravity does.


B is much closer than A, so the most attractive force is at position B, maybe slightly further due to A vs. C.
A vs C can not overcome B from a stand still, but if the initial position is 45° further, A ad B has the same distance, but A is more attracted, so it will generate torque that accelerate the wheel. Inertia will move A past the magnet a bit, so D can come close enough to repeat the cycle. Say if the number of chains isn't two, but 20 evenly spread.


Very light wheel might not work, or it will be noisy due to the cogging. Using a flywheel will smoothen the rotation due to increased inertia.


The principle has more magnetic attraction from one side, seen only from the shape. So from that perpective, this will definitely run.
However, there must be a force that balance out the benefits of greater ferromagnetic mass on one side. I cannot clearly see where this counter forces comes from.


Vidar
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: Low-Q on February 20, 2019, 12:24:59 AM
I made a short illustration of a similar idea using several pulleys, and a string of ferromagnetic chain.
Only 3 sec. video, but you'll see how the wheels turn, and how the chain shortens towards left.
It is a MP4 file. You must probably download the video to see it.


Vidar
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: Low-Q on February 21, 2019, 09:58:29 PM
I have thougt of different scenarios regarding orientation of the magnet. The attatched three images explains how the non vertical parts of the chain (illustrated in the video in previous post) affect the chain magnetically. A north-south horizintally force the red marks to separate. This will be one counterforce that will force the wheel going backwards. This orientation also have the weakest attraction to the whole chain.
A north-south vertically will force the red marks together. This orientation also have the strongest attraction to the whole chain.
The last scenario is a 45° angled magnet. Attractive force on the whole chain is somewhere between weak and strong. It should probably not affect the red markers except attraction towards the magnet.


I ordered a spool of 2.5mm iron chain on Ebay, so this will be tested with a simple loop consisting of two sticks with plastic pulleys/wheels that can seesaw, expanding or contracting the chain close to a magnet. Delivery is not expected untill mid March-April...that is how free shipping works, unfortunately.


Vidar
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: norman6538 on February 22, 2019, 01:53:21 AM
To me the most difficult thing to beat when using permanent magnets is the
"closer stronger, further weaker" characteristic of  magnetic fields.

I have often used a variable lever that allows a week attraction to lift a given weight
a little bit because the leverage is greater and then when the attraction is
greater that weight is lifted a greater distance because of less leverage.

If that force was linear I would have demonstrated an overunity PM device 5 years ago.

Norman
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: Low-Q on February 22, 2019, 08:25:43 AM

If you combine nonmagnetic springs and magnets, you can achieve linear characteristics.


Vidar

To me the most difficult thing to beat when using permanent magnets is the
"closer stronger, further weaker" characteristic of  magnetic fields.

I have often used a variable lever that allows a week attraction to lift a given weight
a little bit because the leverage is greater and then when the attraction is
greater that weight is lifted a greater distance because of less leverage.

If that force was linear I would have demonstrated an overunity PM device 5 years ago.

Norman
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: Low-Q on March 05, 2019, 06:43:09 PM
I finally received the iron chains today.
Two sizes. 2.5mm and 4mm width.
Definitely magnetic.
Now it's time for simple tests.
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: Low-Q on March 05, 2019, 09:36:10 PM
Printing parts for the first experiment using a seesaw-like structure that holds the pulleys with the chain around.The goal is to see how the seesaw redponds when the chain around it is exposed to a magnetic field. Can I widen or close the gap, increasing or decreasing the amount of magnetic chain without input, or what does it take to do it?Watch the video to see how I want to do the experiment.
https://youtu.be/LlCs8w4y33s (https://youtu.be/LlCs8w4y33s)


Vidar.
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: shylo on March 06, 2019, 10:09:53 AM
Hi Vidar, The sea-saw will just come to rest where the most amount of magnetism interacts with the chain.
The rotating bed the saw is on will be attracted to the magnet ,then just stop.
Just my opinion

artv
 
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: F6FLT on March 06, 2019, 10:42:29 AM
Hi Vidar, The sea-saw will just come to rest where the most amount of magnetism interacts with the chain.
The rotating bed the saw is on will be attracted to the magnet ,then just stop.
Just my opinion

artv

This opinion is confirmed by everything we know about electromagnetism. There is no cause for the movement of magnetic parts in a cycle using permanent magnets, because the start and end magnetic potential is the same.
Without an idea of the origin of the hidden energy that could allow such a cycle and how to implement it, it is doomed to failure, I am saddened to see enthusiastic and willing people throwing themselves into a dead end.
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: Low-Q on March 06, 2019, 11:14:26 AM
Hi Vidar, The sea-saw will just come to rest where the most amount of magnetism interacts with the chain.
The rotating bed the saw is on will be attracted to the magnet ,then just stop.
Just my opinion

artv
That is what I think too. Conservative forces cannot do work, so somewhere along the cycle this rotor will stop.
First, I build a seesaw with one loop of magnetic chain. I make a small gap first, then approach the magnet and see what happens. Then make a big gap and approach the magnet, and see what happens.
I assume that the small gap will widen when I approach a magnet.


Vidar


Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: Low-Q on March 06, 2019, 11:59:55 AM
Attached I have illustrated 3 figures. Figure 1 illustrates that I pull the tight chain towards left.
It seems unreasonable that the seesaw will do anything. Maybe something different with a magnetic field due to the magnetic influence on the horizontal part of the chain.
Figure 2 is how a chain shapes when I approach it to a magnet. It gets pointy close to the magnet.
Figure 3 is not what is happening when I approach a magnet.


I will test the seesaw when I come home from work.


Vidar
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: Low-Q on March 06, 2019, 08:38:30 PM
I finally got to test the seesaw. The rods used through the pulleys are stainless steel, and not ferromagnetic at all.
What I can say, is that the chain got more tension when the seesaw is in parallell. An engineering problem that can be solved.
Maybe a common fulcrum as this isn't the way to do it. I think I need two separate fulcrums in the center of each seesaw. That will make an instable seesaw that will collapse, but I'll try to find a way to fix that problem with some guides/tracks.

That said, I did some tests you can watch in this video: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7QACX7U-bDg


What I found is that nothing happens to the seesaw wether the narrow or wide part face the magnet, or if I pull the chain with my finger. What I expected was that the narrow end opens up in order to expose more magnetic chain when it's facing a magnet, but absolutely nothing happens. Not even a tiny bit.
The only thing that happens is that there is more attraction when the seesaws wide end (more chain) is facing the magnet. It seems to me that no effort is necessary to change magnetic attraction from weak to strong, or from strong to weak, but there is some friction that most probably is bugging the experiment. I would however expect a little reaction to the narrow gap when the magnet approaches - as mentioned before, the magnet will seek the most magnetic attraction, meaning that the seesaw SHOULD open the side that is facing the magnet - at least a tiny bit. But no. Nothing happens.


I am printing some new pulleys with a little wider holes so they turn more easily. Because a couple of them does not turn around, but the chain just slides over them. I also need to find a better arrangement to the seesaw so the chain can sustain its tension regardless of the seesaws positions. Not much tension, but enough for the chain to not jump over the edges of the pulleys.


Think a little about this experiment while I'm printing new parts. Next experiment will not be untill tomorrow or friday - hopefully with less friction, and proper tension to the seesaw.


Vidar
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: Low-Q on March 06, 2019, 10:38:27 PM
This is the new seesaw. It should be correct design.


Vidar
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: Low-Q on March 07, 2019, 08:35:20 AM
Hi there,


Do you have any idea where I can buy small conveyor belts or track links? I'm looking for plastic/non magnetic belts similar to what you'll find in LEGO machines, but something stronger.
I need to do something with the chain I am supposed to use. The chain I got, is getting stiff near a magnetic field. Each link stick together and creates friction. Even ballbearings is hard to turn near a magnetic field.


What I plan to do instead, is using a plastic belt, and glue on tiny magnets - lots of them. In this way I can make a rotor with a permanentmagnetic belt that is actually attracting or repelling the stator magnet. So I can use two stator magnets that attract on one side and repel on the other side. Using the "mass gradient" in the rotor (due to the alignment of the wheels, this might provide some interesting results - most impertantly something to learn from.


Vidar
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: citfta on March 07, 2019, 11:10:47 AM
Would something like this work?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/170XL050-Timing-Belt-Cog-Belt-85-Teeth-Flat-Shipping-for-Unlimited-Quantity/261084747649?hash=item3cc9dd1781:g:jWoAAOxy~dNQ~eYI

You can buy or 3d print the pulleys.
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: Low-Q on March 07, 2019, 11:31:03 AM
Would something like this work?

https://www.ebay.com/itm/170XL050-Timing-Belt-Cog-Belt-85-Teeth-Flat-Shipping-for-Unlimited-Quantity/261084747649?hash=item3cc9dd1781:g:jWoAAOxy~dNQ~eYI (https://www.ebay.com/itm/170XL050-Timing-Belt-Cog-Belt-85-Teeth-Flat-Shipping-for-Unlimited-Quantity/261084747649?hash=item3cc9dd1781:g:jWoAAOxy~dNQ~eYI)

You can buy or 3d print the pulleys.
Thanks! belts like this has crossed my mind too. They are not as flexible (and more resistance), but a narrower and thinner belt might work.


Vidar
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: kajunbee on March 07, 2019, 03:50:33 PM
Go on eBay and search " flat vcr belt". i imagine there are other devices that have small belts. Maybe someone else has a better suggestion.
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: Low-Q on March 07, 2019, 10:30:09 PM
The second seesaw I made was much better. Easier to examine the behaviour. The narrow part will open up near a magnet. The reason is because the magnetic force is pulling on the chain that goes along the sides. when it do so, the seesaw will open up. However, when I open the seesaw near a magnet, the seesaw is pushed together a tiny bit. I did more tests than in the video, but the result is quite clear. The seesaw wants to rest when they are aligned in parallell - more or less.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rfZHB6y7CGE


That's it.


Next test is to make a telescopic iron "rod" so I can adjust the length between the ends of the seesaw. The mass will not change, but the volume, or area, of the telescopic rod inside the magnetic field will increase or decrease. For this I will try to print two parts with iron filament. Two tubes, one that fits inside the other. I think I know the outcome already, but need to know for sure.


Vidar
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: telecom on March 07, 2019, 11:23:52 PM
Probably the chain doesn't have enough magnetism in it, needs to be more massive.
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: kajunbee on March 08, 2019, 02:47:31 AM
As you can already tell attracting the chain most likely won't work. As I see it the same tension squeezing one side together is also squeezing the other side together. Therefore no movement. In your video you use both hands to push the chain. So your chain gets tight on one side. And gets slack in the direction your pushing. Basically your chasing the slack in the chain. I see that you were able to move them a little. I have no explanation other than the magnet pulled on both side chains relieving the tension on one end.  I'm by no means and expert so everything I'm saying is guess work. Just and uneducated guess.
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: Low-Q on March 08, 2019, 11:05:38 AM
Probably the chain doesn't have enough magnetism in it, needs to be more massive.
I think it is enough to confirm the outcome.
That was what confused me before I built it. The idea of operation is described earlier. I did expect that my wheel with two angled discs would find equilibrium. And now I know how it does that, and why it does.


Because, if the seesaw hadn't expanded near a magnet, I could build a magnetmotor that actually worked, but the outcome of the experiment proves that it cannot work.


My goal is reached - learning by practice :)


New ideas must be explored.


Vidar
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: Low-Q on March 09, 2019, 09:36:17 PM
I've decided to move forward with this design. See the image. I have given it a lot of thoughts. I have concluded that the seesaw will not work, because the magnetism pulls the chain towards it, and squeeze the opposite end together.


I think something similar will happen with the design in the image. A long magnet will attract the green chain more than the orange chain. The X'es is where the chain rounds the pulleys. The left side X'es is pulled towards right, and the right side X'es are pulled towards left.


When the wheel turns clockwise, the chain moves towards right to fill the widest gap between the two wheels. So the chain is sliding away from the magnet at the right side, and apprach the magnet at the left side.
My guess is that the magnetic force on all the X'es combined, cancels out.
What I got left is longer green chain than orange chain.


It's a complicated build, mostly to put the chain in place.


Vidar



Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: Low-Q on April 01, 2019, 02:38:20 PM
Printed out som pulleys for the project.
I have also finished the rotor, but have no pictures of those right now.
These pulleys is made for that zig-zag chain I have posted an illustration of earlier.


Vidar
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: Low-Q on April 01, 2019, 06:08:56 PM
Picture of one of the finished wheels - actually spokes, but it saves a lot of 3D filament, and time.
It takes almost 6 hours to make ONE "wheel" of this type.
Printing 16 pulleys took more than 7 hours.
You need to be patient with this hobby :D 


Edit: the M5 bolts and washers are made of non-magnetic stainless steel.


Vidar
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: Low-Q on April 02, 2019, 01:49:26 PM
Almost finished.
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: Low-Q on April 05, 2019, 12:38:46 PM
I have been thinking. If this wheel is oriented vertical with the widest/narrowest part to the sides, horizontally, it will be more mass on one side.
Yesterday I put on an iron chain (green) to see the movement of it when I turn the wheels by hand. The chain must feed the widening gaps, and give away chain when the gaps is narrowing. Illustrated direction by pink arrows. The longest arrows illustrate most movement.
The chain I have is very light, only 2.5mm wide, so I could not be able to see if the wheel turns easier one way or the other. I also tried a magnet, but each link in the chain got magnetized and stuck into eachother, stiffening the chain, and increased friction by a great deal.

The chain is allways moving towards the widest gap, and the total displacement in the gravitational field appears to be zero. Because at one side the chain goes up, and the other side the chain goes down with the same amount. So the sum of mass displacement in the gravitational field is zero.
However, what I got left is a greater mass that is constant on one side.
I have a larger 4mm chain I will test today. Maybe it will be easier to see the difference then - if it is any difference at all.

The attached image is just a copy of the previous one, but put on some arrows and lines. I do not have a pucture of the wheel with the chain on yet. I will post this later.

This experiment bugs me a lot. I know gravity is conservative, so something is accounting for the apparent imbalance.

Vidar
Title: Re: A new magnetmotor idea for you to evaluate.
Post by: Low-Q on April 06, 2019, 11:21:09 PM
The chain movement is not what I assumed.
The chain change direction 90° ahead an after the widest and narrowest part, and not where the chain is longest and shortest. I uploaded a video that explains this.
https://youtu.be/HMUYbBR2OFg


Vidar