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Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: Floor on February 01, 2019, 08:25:37 PM

Title: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on February 01, 2019, 08:25:37 PM
Equal and opposite forces.

It requires the same energy expenditure to pull two magnets in attraction apart,
as those magnets delivered during their attraction to each other.

Because Newtons laws are valid, and also because of the  two pole nature of permanent magnets...........

we can change the positions of two magnets, which are in close proximity to one another,
without doing work against the magnetic forces between those  magnets.  To see an example of this
illustrated,  open the PDF attached below.

We can get energy from magnets, cyclically and repeatedly.

We accomplish this by limiting motions to specific vectors  (right angle and or near right angle vectors),
by neutralization of (balancing of) attracting and repelling forces along specific vectors, and preventing
motions along specific other vectors.

To see this done watch this video, Titled "amazeing"

                          https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q


              floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: F6FLT on February 03, 2019, 11:35:49 AM
I see no evidence of what is claimed in what is shown.
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: norman6538 on February 04, 2019, 04:43:09 PM
Floor you do some really great work with  all of your tests and setups and attempts.
 I have used black silicon seal to hold magnets tight. It takes 10 or so hrs.
to setup hard. I expose it to air for several minutes to get it started. Then a sharp knife
will cut and separate them for reuse.

Its very cold here in the north east so I get more done inside than in summer.

Keep it up.

Norman
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on February 06, 2019, 10:21:35 PM
@Norman 6538

Hope you and yours are well.
        Stay warm

                floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on May 23, 2019, 11:04:42 PM
Because Newton's laws are valid.

Illustrated below in the attached pdf file.

One of the outer magnets is attracted by the inner magnet.
The other, outer magnet is repelled by the inner magnet.

Mechanical linkage, via the rack and pinon gear systems, makes it possible to
push or pull the outer magnet toward or away from the inner magnet, WITH OUT
DOING WORK AGAINST MAGNETIC FORCES.

This is because one magnet's attraction toward the inner magnet is equal to the other magnet's repulsion by the inner magnet.

Magnetic force decreases with distance.  That force drops off with distance, whether that force is an attraction or a repulsion.
Their rate of change is practically the same in both instances.

           best wishes

                   floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on May 23, 2019, 11:16:23 PM
Please note that...

The inner magnet's instalation and / or removal is without doing work against magnetic forces.
This is due to a balance between the attracting and repelling  forces along the vector (line) of its travel.

                 floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Low-Q on July 02, 2019, 01:13:57 PM
I looked through your PDF. The concept looks interesting.
Have you simulated this inn FEMM?


Would the attached design, that is based on the similar concept work in a similar way?
I often make other designs of the same concept to see if I do mistakes that I might miss on the first design.
The design in my poor drawing is easy to simulate in FEMM too. Just measuring torques at different positions of the wheels.


A vertical stationary magnet should do the same/similar job as the centermagnet in your PDF.


Since this vertical magnet isn't a piece of iron, it has its own magnetic field that does not prevent the rotormagnets to pass (?). A simulation will show how it works


Vidar.
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Low-Q on July 02, 2019, 02:43:47 PM
I figured it out. In your design, the lower magnet and stationary magnet adds up a stronger magnetic field. They are attracted to eachother, but since they add up, the repulsion between these two and the top magnet is stronger than the attraction bewteen the other two.
That means it will be a sideways force on the stator magnet when you try slide it out. In fact, the force is going in the right direction, but the total force between the two moving magnets is also repulsion, not neutral.

I simulated a rotary version of this. It ends up in zero torque.


Vidar
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 02, 2019, 03:38:47 PM
Hi Vidar

I figured it out. In your design, the lower magnet and stationary magnet adds up a stronger magnetic field. They are attracted to eachother, but since they add up, the repulsion between these two and the top magnet is stronger than the attraction bewteen the other two.
That means it will be a sideways force on the stator magnet when you try slide it out. In fact, the force is going in the right direction, but the total force between the two moving magnets is also repulsion, not neutral.

I simulated a rotary version of this. It ends up in zero torque.
Vidar

I did some rotary builds and found little or no usable torque.  I have femm but never use it.
My designs come from real world experiments

I never got stuck on the idea that a free energy device must have a spinny thingy
 and / or a flashing thingy.  Most of these designs don't.

Inefficient devices need to spin, so they conserve momentum, OU devices don't.

Watch the short video below to a real demo of the Newton's magnets principles.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q


There are many directions in which the magnets prefer to act.  Limiting their motions
to specific directions (with track systems) is why the designs work.

best wishes

     floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Low-Q on July 03, 2019, 09:13:13 AM
@Floor


I've watched the video. I'm not sure if you can feel any counterforce when using ferrites, with a relatively large spacing, in combination with a large heavy structure with friction.
Magnets are tricky. They tend to not do what they are told :-)
What we do know for sure, is that the fields from one magnet to the other have a magnetic force only when the field is not perpendicular to each other. As soon as on magnet is moving, the field starts to line up with other fields, and then repel or attract.


Looking at AC-transformers, will explain this well. The transformation will not take place if the primary coil is placed perpendicular to the secondary coil. The rule of thumb when designing crossover networks for speakers, the inductors are never placed in such way that they can transfer energy from one inductor to the other. If they do, signals from one frequency range will be transferred to a speaker driver that is not supposed to play that same frequency range.


Vidar
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 04, 2019, 05:58:58 PM
@ Vidar

With the shield magnet fixed in the position
you illustrate there SHOULD be zero torque.
(this is good)

It seems to me that with the right timing of an insertion and
removal of the shield magnet your design could work.  Your
output magnets are shielded well before they are directly
opposite one another  (this is also good).

But the shield magnet would need to slide (up in your drawing) a little bit,
JUST AFTER the two rotating magnets are directly opposite
each other (this will give a little torque). 

But then the shield will be in the wrong position
for the next magnets, and so,  it needs to be returned to
its original position before they get there.

Try both shield positions in femm. 
One will give torque, the other will not.
You need both.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q

Today is Quatro de Julio (the 4th of july).
Its the day Americans celebrate their  "independence".

The first Americans lost their independence to the
Europeans,  because they had little immunity to the strange
diseases the Europeans brought with them. 

Neither did they posse the hard technologies / weapons, which the
Europeans had sacrificed the welfare of the earth to manufacture.

They had no fanciest / corporate like,  government to brain wash
the people into blind soldier obedience.

The new Americans were surfs,  peons, and  slaves.  They still are.

Cages of steel aren't much needed if the peoples hearts and minds are
already imprisoned.

Love shall overcome fear.

            peace out
                      floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 07, 2019, 07:21:46 AM
@ lowQ

Designs (like yours) which are attempts to directly cause rotation
with the magnets are a bust (as far as I have seen).

The Newton's magnets design, is based upon hard right angle interactions.

This is the wrong topic to present either a new or a rotary design in.

This topic is about the design "Newton's magnets".

Please see the attached PDF file below "Newtons magnets.PDF"

   thanks
       floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 07, 2019, 07:29:22 AM
@ All readers

This is a link to a short video of the Newtons magnet demonstrated.

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q

 floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: tinman on July 07, 2019, 03:55:21 PM
Chet posted my video in the other thread,but i will post it here as well,as this thread seems dedicated to the gating effect you have discovered Floor.

The first video is just a small test rig i threw together to see if there were any notable reaction forces--and none were found.

So i decided to put together a rotary design of mine,using Floors gate design.
The second video shows the 3D printed parts i have so far,but i decided to make the drum and gear 1 piece. Those new parts are on the printer ATM.

Anyway,you get the idea of what i am trying to do,and make the build easier.

It would seem, ATM anyway,that Floor's gate design may be what we have been looking for.
Keep up the good work Floor  ;)

Sorry about the printer noise in the second video.
I didn't think it would be that loud

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRmbekUqJcs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhyfD1GiCXU
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 08, 2019, 12:00:47 AM
Thanks Tinman / Chet et. all.

The magnets motion and measurement topic
has a lot of design variations posted in it and also
some very good explinations of the how and whys.

Lots of drawings  and links to 19 short videos.

Tinman, the design your are looking at is there as well.

See file below.           

     floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 13, 2019, 06:48:55 PM
                  ALSO

Thanks for the updates / videos Tinman

     @

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRmbekUqJcs

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhyfD1GiCXU

I think I see your design / intent,  good luck with it.

Note:  Undesired up and down forces (luc's force) will be high, especially with the leverage
factor present as the radius of the gears.

  floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Low-Q on July 15, 2019, 04:33:15 PM
Refering your the first video:
When you let it go like a pendulum the first time, I can see that the rotormagnet is somewhat trapped in the statorfield, but not much. It has a lot to do with alignment, strength etc of the magnets - i guess. Big differenc when you remove one of the statormagnets. What force would you expect is required to remove one of the statormagnets when the rotormagnet is lined up with them? If it takes no force to do so, it would be easy for the momentum in the rotor to remove it a bit so the rotor can continue. However, the same momentum must force the statormagnet back towards a repelling force so the rotormagnet can enter the gap between them again.


Edit: In your second video, you made a 3D model of my "post-it" design (further up in this thread). I know from the FEMM simulation, that this design will not work.


Vidar


Chet posted my video in the other thread,but i will post it here as well,as this thread seems dedicated to the gating effect you have discovered Floor.

The first video is just a small test rig i threw together to see if there were any notable reaction forces--and none were found.

So i decided to put together a rotary design of mine,using Floors gate design.
The second video shows the 3D printed parts i have so far,but i decided to make the drum and gear 1 piece. Those new parts are on the printer ATM.

Anyway,you get the idea of what i am trying to do,and make the build easier.

It would seem, ATM anyway,that Floor's gate design may be what we have been looking for.
Keep up the good work Floor  ;)

Sorry about the printer noise in the second video.
I didn't think it would be that loud

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRmbekUqJcs (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRmbekUqJcs)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhyfD1GiCXU (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhyfD1GiCXU)
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 15, 2019, 08:27:54 PM
Same principle of operation is in short video here @

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6xihh7

Same principles are at work but .... in the video, they are used via a different magnet
alignment / geometry.

https://overunity.com/18137/newtons-magnets/dlattach/attach/171711/

The design LowQ  has presented and the Tinman is modifying / testing, has similarities in principles.

I think there are meritorious aspects to the "Vidar design". I don't  think it will self loop, unless
the shielding is partially and cyclically removed then installed. 

It may be that there is sufficient energy in the rotary motion to supply that  install/ remove and still excess energy remaining.

I am confident the above is true of some of the linear designs.

It remains for the Tinman to demonstrate for us,  his rotary design as a go or no go.  I am of course hopeful that  the LowQ design or some variation of it will be a go.

     floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: lumen on July 15, 2019, 10:26:55 PM
@ Vidar


I built that same rotary design in your sketch about a year ago and it does not work for the same reason that all these designs cannot operate.
Ceramic magnets seem to deal with the problem better in that in a repelling position they only build pressure to a point then seem to yield to the pressure.


The problem is that the center magnet is not working as a shield but more as a field director.
The magnet pair that work in attraction become one larger magnet and push harder on the repelling magnet.
This effect is not felt on the center magnet which can freely move between the outer two but the force on the repelling outer is increased and the force on the attracting is decreased to near zero when measured from a stationary point.


So in the end what you have is the two outer magnets repel each other with 20oz force without the center magnet and with the center magnet one repels with 0oz force and the other with 40oz force.


Now if the ceramic magnet can only reach 20oz force before it gives in, then the increase does not occur and the operation shows a gain of 20oz force.
The simulations indicate this problem using neodymium magnets and actual tests indicate the same, but have not tried ceramic magnets.

 
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 16, 2019, 05:28:52 AM
First off, both Vidar and I (floor) have concluded that this particular rotary design will not just sit there and spin.

quotes are from Lumen


"I built that same rotary design in your sketch about a year ago "
                                       Show us evidence of that build, or don't claim it

"and it does not work for the same reason that all these designs cannot operate."
                                     Show us the evidence of your results or don't claim it.
                                                                     ALSO
                                       Please be specific as to what "these" designs are.

"Ceramic magnets seem to deal with the problem better in that in a repelling position they only build pressure to a point then seem to yield to the pressure."

                                        What problem ? Some problem is yours ?
                                           Then your statement becomes simply
                                                               gibberish.

Why do you use the first use of,  the word "seem" in the above paragraph.
                             Please don't reply.
What does the phrase "seem to yield" mean in this context ?
                             Please don't reply.

"The problem is that the center magnet is not working as a shield but more as a field director."
                                       This is not a problem it is a FEATURE.

"The magnet pair that work in attraction become one larger magnet and push harder on the repelling magnet. "
                                Unclear statement. Harder than what?
                                       And  I'll just say, no they don't


"This effect is not felt on the center magnet which can freely move between the outer two but the force on the repelling outer is increased and the force on the attracting is decreased to near zero when measured from a stationary point."

                                                Totally unclear statement.
                                                 Probably untrue as well ?

So in the end what you have is the two outer magnets repel each other with 20oz force without the center magnet and with the center magnet one repels with 0oz force and the other with 40oz force.

                                                 In what "end" ?
                                                           and
                     The inexpensive little ceramic magnets I have used exert
                            forces while at near  distances of hundred of grams. 

"Now if the ceramic magnet can only reach 20oz force before it gives in, then the increase does not                occur and the operation shows a gain of 20oz force.  The simulations indicate this problem using neodymium magnets and actual tests indicate the same, but have not tried ceramic magnets."
                                                          More B.S.


 Finally, Ill say that, when at very close range (nearly touching) there are some domain re-orientations that occur in the ceramic type magnets I have used (real world not just simulations). 
These are accounted for in the demonstrations in the videos I have presented.  Their total effect is negligible in the total of the outcomes of the interactions.


Lumen dude, I don't feel like being nice about it this evening, Please just go away.
Please don't clutter the topic. Your input here was worse than useless.

    sorry
          floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 16, 2019, 05:44:08 AM
To see a short video on the ACTUAL SUBJECT of this topic.
            click
https://youtu.be/1_CrU7M46S4
       or for a similar design click
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q

Also see the attached PDF files below.

       floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 16, 2019, 06:33:17 AM
The Tinman's latest update.

   He blew it badly / buggered and botched the design majorly.  Har har.
@           
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Skz78qQJt24

The shield magnet he used in the device is a neodymium (he states this in his video).

Any of the ceramic magnets he's using (when at close proximity to the neodymium magnet),
will be totally overwhelmed and therefore attracted to the Neodymium magnet.

Those ceramic magnets he uses, will even stick to the powerful neodymium magnet when facing
the neodymium as like polarity to like polarity (try that one for your self). Tinman was surly already aware of this.

                           His demo is less than useless.
             Except for that it once again, shows his Intent.

All in all not a surprise to me,  but we gave him another chance to either
redeem his self and / or reveal his intent.

No further questions

    floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 16, 2019, 06:51:38 AM
Lets see how long this video stays up.

Here is a demo by the Tinman, but with all magnets of a ceramic type.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRmbekUqJcs

   floor

Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: tinman on July 16, 2019, 02:12:09 PM
When you try and help others out-->

Quote
It remains for the Tinman to demonstrate for us,  his rotary design as a go or no go

When it's a no go you get this-->

Quote
He blew it badly / buggered and botched the design majorly.  Har har.
@           
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Skz78qQJt24

The shield magnet he used in the device is a neodymium (he states this in his video).

Any of the ceramic magnets he's using (when at close proximity to the neodymium magnet),
will be totally overwhelmed and therefore attracted to the Neodymium magnet.

Those ceramic magnets he uses, will even stick to the powerful neodymium magnet when facing
the neodymium as like polarity to like polarity (try that one for your self). Tinman was surly already aware of this.

                           His demo is less than useless.
             Except for that it once again, shows his Intent.

All in all not a surprise to me,  but we gave him another chance to either
redeem his self and / or reveal his intent.

No further questions

    floor

You have got to be kidding.

Some one dose not know his magnets as well as he thinks he dose  ::)
Some egg on your face

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDisjS97j5o


TinMan
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 16, 2019, 03:35:13 PM
Very well, Tinman

I  accept that there is egg on my face.  I appologise sincerly-
Once in a while, I loose it and just wig out / flame.

Thank you for hanging in there in the face of it  and  sticking to your ground any way.

I will however put up short video of a ceramic magnet sticking to a neo magnet,
like poles together.  Not as a justification for my blowing up, but for the readers
at large to be aware.

        respect
              floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: tinman on July 16, 2019, 03:55:35 PM
Very well, Tinman

I  accept that there is egg on my face.  I appologise sincerly-
Once in a while, I loose it and just wig out / flame.

Thank you for hanging in there in the face of it  and  sticking to your ground any way.

I will however put up short video of a ceramic magnet sticking to a neo magnet,
like poles together.  Not as a justification for my blowing up, but for the readers
at large to be aware.

        respect
              floor

As i stated in my video,i know if the neo is to strong,and the ferrite to weak,like poles will stick.'
In fact,you will find that the ceramic magnet now has either very little magnetic strength left,or it has flipped it's pole's altogether.

But i took care as to what strength magnets i mixed,so as this very situation did not take place.

I also made it very clear in my video that my version should in no way reflect on the outcome of your linear version,which i also did in the thread at OUR right from the start--Carroll will verify this.

So i have done my best to do it right,and i was a little shocked to read your comment about my true intentions,as no one would like to see an all magnet motor running on his bench more than me--or any self sustaining system for that matter.

My true intentions have always remained the same,and that is to find freedom from the cartels of power.


Brad
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 16, 2019, 03:58:13 PM
@ Lumen

The same applys.

My apologies for all the harshness, it was uncalled for.

I just get defensive and attacking about the designs some times.

Again I apologize.
 
   floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 16, 2019, 03:59:57 PM
@ Tinman

Thanks
      floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: tinman on July 16, 2019, 04:11:44 PM
@ Tinman

Thanks
      floor

All good Floor  ;)

I have not given up yet,just trying to work out why or how the rotary design shows this sticky spot,but the linear design dose not?.

Added
Video renamed,and description edited.


Brad
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: lumen on July 16, 2019, 07:20:01 PM
@ Tinman

The best part of these experiments is not whether it works or fails, but what is learned.
Your test actually confirms that in a sliding device there may be a gain in energy because the repelling ceramic magnet is not able to repel under some changed conditions.

Consider the ceramic magnet that is in attraction to the Neodymium is in fact increasing the strength against the repelling ceramic magnet by adding to the field direction.
The increased repelling force surpasses the maximum repelling force of that ceramic magnet and part of the magnets domains change direction and it becomes unable to repel any harder.

I know this because I have the same device and only use neodymium magnets, the results are very different.

@ Floor
Relax a bit... No one here is trying to prove anyone wrong.
I know a simple description is hard to follow.

I think Tinman may have shown why the sliding setup with ceramic magnets may actually work, and why it is doubtful that the same effect could work with Neodymium magnets.

Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Low-Q on July 16, 2019, 09:32:01 PM
@ Tinman

The best part of these experiments is not whether it works or fails, but what is learned.
.........

Totally agreed. Learning is important.


Using neos in close approximity of a weaker ceramic magnet is a problem. This problem has already been addressed earlier in this thread. What you can do to compensate for this, is making a smaller diameter for the part where the ceramic magnets are fixed, so you extend the gap between the statorfield and the rotorfield.
Too far apart, and you will add the two fields from the left rotormagnet and the statormagnet, repelling the right hand rotormagnet even more. This aready happens before the rotormagnets are facing eachother. So if you perhaps place several smaller statormagnets as an arch, and makes sure there is a balance between repelling and attracting forces in the 90° rotation in advance of the statormagnets end, you will have a different result. Perhaps closer to a running motor.
So doing adjustments to cancel repelling and attracting forces at one place, will enhance repelling forces another place in the design you have now.


I think this rotary design can be a few steps closer to a selfrunner if you do modifications, as suggested with the arched statorfield. Just have in mind that two of the magnets enhance the field on one side, and that can cause the other field to be too much repelled, or too little (starting to attract). However, firstly, the most important thing is to gain a net positive torque even if the rotormagnets at some places counterforces rotation, the other forces has to be greater.


Maybe it even goes backwards. I allways think both forward and backwards when designing. Thinking like that helps me to understand more. Asking, what determine direction? Can it go backwards as well as forwards? What does the statormagnet want to do? What if I fix the rotor, and let the statormagnet go, what will happen?


Vidar

Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: telecom on July 16, 2019, 10:55:26 PM
To see a short video on the ACTUAL SUBJECT of this topic.
            click
https://youtu.be/1_CrU7M46S4
       or for a similar design click
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q

Also see the attached PDF files below.

       floor

Just want to note that in the youtube video magnets are parallel to each other,
but in a dailymotion - they are perpendicular to the shield magnets.
Why and how this shield works is still puzzling to me.
I can only guess that the shield transforms linear forces into the rotational
ones, which in turn being absorbed by a frame.
If you can, please clarify the above mechanism.
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 17, 2019, 01:38:15 AM
If I may be admitted back into this topic after showing such very bad behaviour :)

@ Lumen

Your observationshave a good deal of validity.

In the rotating design, we are not creating precisely equal conditions
on each side of the neo magnet.  There are significant differences in the
fields when one is repelling under compression rather than  like the other
attracting with expansive fields.

A possible solution... create more nearly identical field conditions (although inverted to one another in the vertical plane) on either side of the shield.

See the PDF below

Split and then flip one half of the shield magnet.

note. This will also change the force vector direction upon the (now an array),
of shield magnets, into a torque force.

                  floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: lumen on July 17, 2019, 04:48:14 AM
@ Floor

Looking at your PDF is making me wonder..... I bet if I put that into the simulator, it's going to tell me that there is no change in forces on the outer magnets with or without the shield magnets.
That would be interesting because if the actual response is not as calculated then something is missing.
We will see what happens.

Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: lumen on July 17, 2019, 09:47:08 PM
So the results ?

Without the shield magnet the right magnet has a force of +65.3 Newtons and the left is also a -65.3 Newtons.
With the shield inserted the right magnet has a force of +61.2 Newtons and the left is showing -60.8 Newtons.
This is the result for Neodymium magnets and I am sure the results are different using ceramic magnets.

I think the results may be changed to something closer to that of ceramic magnets by adding a some iron to the magnet faces.
This would result in the repelling forces shifting somewhat toward attraction as the forces increase.(maybe not exactly the same but similar)
Possibly adding something like ferrite that could have greater thickness might yield a better curve for the desired action.
Or just a thin Neodymium magnet on the back of a ceramic magnet might yield the same action but with more power!

There should be more testing in this area.



Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 17, 2019, 10:19:00 PM
@ Lumen

All of this stuff is based on basics.  Unfortunately for nearly all of us, in the course of
our learning those basics, our teachers left out / failed to accentuate certain aspects.

They did this not because they were particularly bad teaches, but because certain aspects
of those basics were traditionally considered / assumed to be of little consequence.

In mechanics :
 
1. A force (any kind of force) is not form of energy, its not even a mechanical energy.

2. A force acting / causing some change, is an expenditure of, manifestation of
or exchange of energy.

3. Forces which are present between magnets are not / do not expend energy
unless / until they cause a change.

Commonly, that change is measured in terms of some form of displacement.
Then and only then is that magnetic force and its action, a form of energy.
(measurable as  force time displacement)

As a relavent example, consider an apple sitting upon Newton's desk.  The force of gravity
is pulling upon that apple.  But there is (by definition) no work being done upon the
apple and there is no expenditure of gravitational energy unless the apple  falls.

These devices and methods, change the direction of forces, so that they can not act,
and therefore are not / do not become expenditures of energy.

The forces are still there but they cost us / the device very little (mostly just increased friction losses).

This seems like just word trickery, but it actually / really is the way it is, when dealing with force and energy.

The devices / methods also neutralize forces by balancing. 

Motion that is caused / occurs,  but which is not done against a force is not an energy expenditure.

Shields of any kind redirect energy. Even a motor cycle helmet does this.  They do not magically
cause energy to vanish.

Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 17, 2019, 10:36:44 PM
@ Floor

Looking at your PDF is making me wonder..... I bet if I put that into the simulator, it's going to tell me that there is no change in forces on the outer magnets with or without the shield magnets.
That would be interesting because if the actual response is not as calculated then something is missing.
We will see what happens.

@ Lumen

!. Can not / will not, discuss the results with neo magnets (it is off topic).

2. As I said in an earlier comment, I have the FEMM software, but I don't use it.

3. I don't want to discuss the FEMM software nor the validity of or invalidity of its usage (it is off topic).

4. We are discussing real world magnet interactions.  You may, of course, wonder all you wish to about FEMM results,
but its off topic here.

Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 17, 2019, 10:48:06 PM
Here is the basis of the topic of discussion

Equal and opposite forces.

It requires the same energy expenditure to pull two magnets in attraction apart,
as those magnets delivered during their attraction to each other.

Because Newtons laws are valid, and also because of the  two pole nature of permanent magnets...........

we can change the positions of two magnets, which are in close proximity to one another,
without doing work against the magnetic forces between those  magnets.  To see an example of this
illustrated,  open the PDF attached below.

We can get energy from magnets, cyclically and repeatedly.

We accomplish this by limiting motions to specific vectors  (right angle and or near right angle vectors),
by neutralization of (balancing of) attracting and repelling forces along specific vectors, and preventing
motions along specific other vectors.

To see this done watch this video, Titled "amazeing"

                          https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q



Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: lumen on July 18, 2019, 01:08:46 AM
@ Floor

I posted the FEMM results only because I have tested this exact configuration and the results match the FEMM results and if you notice the difference you will see it's to small to be useful.
What is different are the results that are shown in some devices using ceramic magnets.
To know why the results are different may be the key to building a self sustaining device.

You missed one though, Two magnets stacked together increase the field strength.
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 18, 2019, 01:50:10 AM
@ Floor

I posted the FEMM results only because I have tested this exact configuration and the results match the FEMM results and if you notice the difference you will see it's to small to be useful.
What is different are the results that are shown in some devices using ceramic magnets.
To know why the results are different may be the key to building a self sustaining device.

You missed one though, Two magnets stacked together increase the field strength.

"You missed one though, Two magnets stacked together increase the field strength."
                   
Two magnets stacked together CHANGES field strength. 

There are many and various, ways in which that "strength" may CHANGE.   INCREASE can only properly be described in terms of both magnitude AND direction.

What YOU MISSED AND SEEM NOT TO UNDERSTAND, is that it is quite often, a VERY DIFFICULT TASK to keep a topic on topic. This is especially true, in an environment (like the OU forum) that is filled with brilliant and creative minds.

There is sometimes a seemingly endless array of, valid and fascinating, variations and  nuances to a particular set of interactions.  Sometimes, far more than a single person could explore in a
lifetime. 
The focus of this topic has already spread far and wide and is sometimes barely on topic.

What you are participating in, is the present state of a 5 year of study / research (by me), in this some what narrow vein of examinations.  Combined with the experience of some of the other participants in the topic, there is probably well over a century of time / experience present (not excluding your own). 

Most participant are rugged individualists / valiant explorers.  It is difficult for us to resits
the temptation to present innovations.  This in itself is not something to be put down upon or invalidated. But participants must be careful that they not prevent a topics culmination.

PLEASE be more careful in the future in this context.

    respectfully
            floor

In some ways your observations, questions, ideas are simply ahead of the curve, at this time.
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 18, 2019, 02:45:12 AM
@ all readers

PLEASE see the exceptions at the bottom of the page.

Some points which are critical to understand about this topic.
             Its about
ONE
                            .... straight line or LINEAR MOTIONS ...

                            .....AT 90 DEGREES .....

of a magnet or magnets, in relationship to another / other magnets.

TWO
 
The energy present as the motion of an "output magnet or magnets"     
                                 ..... AFTER ..
a "shielding magnet or magnets" has been
                                ..... COMPLETELY....
removed from between those other magnets, is also permissible as on topic.

THREE

The energy required to install or remove a "shielding magnet or magnets"
between  or from between "output magnets" is also permissible as on topic.

FOUR

The topic is about  START then COMPLETED MOTION then STOP  and THEN
the next motion / action devices  only.

Participants / readers, please understand that these are the only conditions,
under which I have observed "over unity" in terms of the ratio of input mechanical work to
output mechanical work.

NEXT

With one exception the LowQ Tinman exploration / design will be considered as on topic.

NEXT

The discussion is also (ALMOST ) entirely limited to ceramic magnet application.

Again with one exception,  the LowQ Tinman exploration / design.  Please do your best
to stick to the ceramics.

   best wishes
           floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 18, 2019, 02:54:10 AM
@ Lumen

Quote from floor
"As a relavent example, consider an apple sitting upon Newton's desk.  The force of gravity
is pulling upon that apple.  But there is (by definition) no work being done upon the
apple and there is no expenditure of gravitational energy unless the apple  falls."
end quote

See also this link below

https://overunity.com/18234/new-version-of-flotation-device/msg535512/#msg535512
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 18, 2019, 03:30:57 AM
@ All readers

Here is the basis of the topic of discussion

Equal and opposite forces.

It requires the same energy expenditure to pull two magnets in attraction apart,
as those magnets delivered during their attraction to each other.

Because Newtons laws are valid, and also because of the  two pole nature of permanent magnets...........

we can change the positions of two magnets, which are in close proximity to one another,
without doing work against the magnetic forces between those  magnets.  To see an example of this
illustrated,  open the PDF attached below.

We can get energy from magnets, cyclically and repeatedly.

We accomplish this by limiting motions to specific vectors  (right angle and or near right angle vectors),
by neutralization of (balancing of) attracting and repelling forces along specific vectors, and preventing
motions along specific other vectors.

To see this done watch this video, Titled "amazeing"

                          https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q

   PDF attached below.

           floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: lumen on July 18, 2019, 04:21:25 AM
@ Floor


There are many new people in the forum that don't have a good understanding of how physics and mechanical devices operate and most have likely not been here when you first posted your test setup on this principal. If you were to check back you would see I was there.


I was a Journeyman machinist for 15 years and I have a building full of CNC machines that I wrote custom software to do nearly any task, including taking force measurements from many combinations of magnetic interactions.
Then I was a mechanical and electrical engineer for 25 years and now retired.


I'm not bragging, just don't need reminding of trivial physics and work calculation.


I was working on a way to determine if work can actually be done in a uniform magnetic field because the Faraday device that claims it is doing so is not a conclusive test.


So I should no doubt return back to that task and see where that leads and let you continue on.
Thanks for letting me post, it was a good distraction.





Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 18, 2019, 12:08:32 PM
@Lumen

Be well.

  floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Low-Q on July 18, 2019, 12:18:14 PM
Field gradients is the reason why the magnetic forces is present. A uniform field can't do that. At least one magnet needs a field gradient to operate.
Another important thing is how the field is polarized. Not as north and south, but how the field is oriented from its origin.
Think of a field as shells, like thin foils that is folded around the magnet. Two opposite poles or equal poles do not interact with eachother if the polarization is perpendicular to eacother. This can be seen if you put two long magnets, polarized throug thickness, an make a cross. Center-center will nor attract or repel even if both have a field gradient close to eachother.


I'm sure you guys know about magnetic field polarization. Not talking about north/south, but how these poles produce a polarized field that depends on the direction of the field gradients cross section.


Vidar
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 18, 2019, 11:26:00 PM
@ all readers

I just moved into a new home.  My life / organization is a lot to deal with at this time.  I haven't even finished the unpacking.  The new house needed work / was pretty much dysfunctional and is filthy.

It is one of my primary goals,  in the topics which I participate, to keep them as understandable to the general readership as I can.

I realize that it sometimes seem that I am talking down to other members, who are in some instances much more knowledgeable than my self.  Please don't take this personally.  I am almost always "speaking" in terms of as if many people were "overhearing the conversation".  Most of my actions / statement are very deliberate. My topics are not for the "experts only".
.... .... .... ... ... ..... .... .... .... .....
.... .... .... ... ... ..... .... .... .... .....
The Newton's magnets design is a demonstration / explanation / teaching tool.  It neither puts out energy nor does it do work. 

It is some what, fascinating to see those magnets pass so smoothly past the other magnet or magnets (in the short video link above), while such a tiny gap exists between them.  The first page of the Newtons magnets PDF file, is title "BalancedSlide 1.PNG" and is attached below.
.... .... .... ... ... ..... .... .... .... .....
.... .... .... ... ... ..... .... .... .... .....
The device shown in the "rack action 2 complete.PDF" (attached above), is like wise a demonstration / explanation / teaching tool.  Most people get  an ah ha / see what the hell is meant by "balance between attracting and repelling forces".  However, unlike Newton's magnets and when using ceramic magnets, I am quite certain that the device exhibits "O.U.".

This design has some limitations / imperfections.  These are as Lumen has described.  There is what I will call (as a simplificatin) an "over crowding in the magnetic field" especially at close proximity.

This does not significantly interfere with the insertion and removal of the shielding magnet
(different vector).   But does create an imbalance in force between the two "output magnets".  That imbalance is mostly present while all three magnets are in close proximity (shield is in).  That imbalance can also contribute to the closing of the gap, during the output magnets return stroke, I think?  This is IN PART due to increased domain flipping, pretty sure ? .....

One must look at the forces over the entire output and input strokes.  Not simply the peak forces while the magnets are in close proximity. What I mean by this, is that, this is exceptionally true of this design (the force / distance curve is oddball).

That undesirable imbalance does not exist once the shield magnet is removed.

That imbalance decreases as the output magnets depart from one another (shield is in) and it increases as the output magnets approach on another (shield is in).

Note  The "rack action 2 complete"  PDF does not make clear that each broad face of  the shield magnet, should have a surface area that is about 2 times the surface area of a single face of either of the output magnet's (also referring to the broad face).  I think / hope I mentioned this in another topic at the time of that files first posting.
.... .... .... ... ... ..... .... .... .... .....
.... .... .... ... ... ..... .... .... .... .....
The device shown in the Rack Action 3complete. PDF is a variation of the "rack action 2 complete.PDF"  It addresses "over crowding in the magnetic field".
The magnet orientations are flipped as compared to the "rack action 2 complete"  PDF.

Note that the "rack action 3 complete"  PDF also does not make clear that each broad face of  the shield magnet, should have a surface area that is about 2 times the surface area of a single face of either of the output magnet's (also referring to the broad face).
.... .... .... ... ... ..... .... .... .... .....
.... .... .... ... ... ..... .... .... .... .....
The "Magnet force shield repulsion.PDF" is also intended to address "over crowding in the magnetic field".

It also is capable a greater output force due to the direct pole to pole orientation of the output magnets.

My   build   of this design is still incomplete.  I will attach photos at a later point, maybe today.
.... .... .... ... ... ..... .... .... .... .....
.... .... .... ... ... ..... .... .... .... .....
@ Vidar  I think you are on the right track.  Lumen should test neo magnets with  large faces on the broad sides (stronger although not higher grade), but also having thin thickness (weaker although not lower grade).
.... .... .... ... ... ..... .... .... .... .....
.... .... .... ... ... ..... .... .... .... .....
@ all readers
I don't have the time and energy, to re post all of the above PDF files right now.  Search for them / most are already on this topic?

             floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 19, 2019, 05:00:35 AM
Here is the promised photo of the "Magnet force shield 1" build so far.

These are
1.the shield magnet array (polar checker board)
           and
2. one output magnet array. (two poles). 

These components will be mounted upon the sliding rails of the already existing, test bed.
90 degrees to one another and so on.

      floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Low-Q on July 19, 2019, 01:50:07 PM
@Floor
You say you've moved into a new home (for some reason). Is everything OK? Are you OK? When people move, it is usually for a reason, so I just wondered if everything is OK :)


Vidar
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 20, 2019, 07:26:03 AM
@ LowQ

There was a death and the property where I have lived for the past several years was sold.

They say that in a hierarchical ranking of common and stressful life situations, that death, divorce and moving to a new home are at the top of that list.

The new place is actually a good space.  The house itself is not as big as the old place, but it is a nicer environment in so many ways.  Its just going to take some time to get it into shape.  I won't have a decent shop space for a while.  I'd sleep on a floor if that was what it took to have a good shop space !

  thanks for asking
       floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 21, 2019, 06:40:38 AM
Here is what the this topic is about.

Equal and opposite forces.

It requires the same energy expenditure to pull two magnets in attraction apart,
as those magnets delivered during their attraction to each other.

Because Newtons laws are valid, and also because of the  two pole nature of permanent magnets...........

we can change the positions of two magnets, which are in close proximity to one another,
without doing work against the magnetic forces between those  magnets.  To see an example of this
illustrated,  open the PDF attached below.

We can get energy from magnets, cyclically and repeatedly.

We accomplish this by limiting motions to specific vectors  (right angle and or near right angle vectors),
by neutralization of (balancing of) attracting and repelling forces along specific vectors, and preventing
motions along specific other vectors.

To see this done watch this short video, Titled "amazeing"  by yours truly  @

          https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q
..............................
..............................
A variation in design

A brief video by user - Tinman / his statements
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRmbekUqJcs
..............................
..............................
Another of the above designs

A link to a build by user  - citfta
      https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/msg535789/#msg535789

A link to a really short video of one of the variations in the designs by user  - citfta / his statements
                             https://youtu.be/1_CrU7M46S4
..............................
..............................
A PDF file  / flip book type presentation of "Newton's magnets" 

                                      See the attached file below

                 floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 22, 2019, 06:29:16 PM
I looked through some videos by another user, here at O.U. forum.  I was hoping to find yet another video demonstration of magnetic force neutralization by some one other than myself.
                                      BUT...
The methods employed and the measurements were very badly botched.  Also, the presenter failed to focus upon / barely mentions the most critical / essential point (force neutralization).

So ... I post here another of my own videos.  Please ! It is not for the purpose of discussion per say,  and I hope that it will not throw the topic into another direction.

This is a fairly brief video, and its focus become most relevant a 2 minutes and 50 seconds into the video.

            2 minutes and 50 seconds

@ https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6wfk0d


   best wishes
           floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 22, 2019, 06:32:28 PM
The next process in this topic will be (I think) to look at the work done in shield insertions and removals.  As an evolution of the Newton's magnets interactions.

                            floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 22, 2019, 07:24:37 PM

The PDF file at this link describes and illustrates a bit more than the basics of magnet interaction.
It is BRIEF, but also fairly detailed in some of its descriptions.  A big piece (1/2) of the PDF is in the form of a flip book (this is a type of video), so please don't be hesitant to view / down load it.  It's a quick read.

Some of the diagrams are exactly relevant to the "Newton's magnets" and also the Newton's magnets interaction, on this topic

https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/dlattach/attach/169582/

       floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: telecom on July 23, 2019, 07:38:30 PM
The next process in this topic will be (I think) to look at the work done in shield insertions and removals.  As an evolution of the Newton's magnets interactions.

                            floor
Yes this is a critical issue in the whole design,  work of the insertion/removal vs the work produced by the repelling magnets.
Also, Citfta's design (probably covered in one of your documents), works on a bit different principle,
where force vectors are mutually opposing, which cause their neutralization, which is very clever.
But the  reaction forces on a shield magnet are quite high, which may cause some additional efforts for moving it,
IMHO.
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 23, 2019, 10:48:55 PM
These aspects are equally "a critical issue".

1. energy expended in the removal and insertion of a shield
           And
2. effectiveness of the shielding
                They are not issues to me.

I know with a total certainty that many of these designs result in more mechanical work out
than mechanical work input.

I also know that most anyone who REALLY wants to know if this is so...... can ......
and in pretty short order.

The question is who among us REALY wants to know this with a total certainty?

Who wouldn't want a free energy device.
Every one wants free energy for their self.
Some even want it for everyone.

I realize that most will say / think of their self as wanting to know.
After all who wouldn't want to be the first to discover, or reveal or so on.

But I think the alone ness of standing within that kind of knowledge, is something
most people instinctively fear.  They are seekers, but also secretly hope not to find,
or perhaps more accurately fear to find.

Think it might be an easier thing, to be AMONG the first to know.

How about your self.  What do you think ?

Look at this proof.  Its not magnets, but it works for very
(in a way) similar reasons (90 degree to the force vector and balancing of forces).
          @

https://overunity.com/18234/new-version-of-flotation-device/msg535512/#msg535512

The above design, is not REASONALBY deniable.  Please understand, I'm not interested in argueing that point, or spending the another five years patiently waiting, (motly patiently :) ) as people discover that they really didn't    or      really did want'to know.  Its late in the "game".

            Peace out
                       floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 23, 2019, 11:01:10 PM
@ Telecom  and ALL READERS

Please notice.

You designate a next objective. 
      But why ?
If a first objective has not been arrived at AND DEFINITIVELY SO.

I'm asking YOU, what do YOU know.

I have heard the phrase "seems to" far too often.

Defecate or get off the porceline feces removal unit please.

            floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: telecom on July 24, 2019, 07:35:04 PM
These aspects are equally "a critical issue".

1. energy expended in the removal and insertion of a shield
           And
2. effectiveness of the shielding
                They are not issues to me.

I know with a total certainty that many of these designs result in more mechanical work out
than mechanical work input.

I also know that most anyone who REALLY wants to know if this is so...... can ......
and in pretty short order.

The question is who among us REALY wants to know this with a total certainty?

Who wouldn't want a free energy device.
Every one wants free energy for their self.
Some even want it for everyone.

I realize that most will say / think of their self as wanting to know.
After all who wouldn't want to be the first to discover, or reveal or so on.

But I think the alone ness of standing within that kind of knowledge, is something
most people instinctively fear.  They are seekers, but also secretly hope not to find,
or perhaps more accurately fear to find.

Think it might be an easier thing, to be AMONG the first to know.

How about your self.  What do you think ?

Look at this proof.  Its not magnets, but it works for very
(in a way) similar reasons (90 degree to the force vector and balancing of forces).
          @

https://overunity.com/18234/new-version-of-flotation-device/msg535512/#msg535512

The above design, is not REASONALBY deniable.  Please understand, I'm not interested in argueing that point, or spending the another five years patiently waiting, (motly patiently :) ) as people discover that they really didn't    or      really did want'to know.  Its late in the "game".

            Peace out
                       floor
Quite honestly, I'm  in line for building this machine - will try doing it asap.
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 25, 2019, 11:42:21 PM
Telecom, if you will, PLEASE consider doing a replication of the device   

@  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRmbekUqJcs

This design variation, by the Tinman is quite elegant and is right on topic.

It is especially so AT THIS TIME.

I think it very important that as a FIRST principle,  the "Newton's magnets" principle is established.

It would be indellably established in the mind of anyone who actually and successfully builds one,
that magnetic force can be effectively neutralized along specific vectors.

The device is also an entry level build, in that most people could successfully complete it in short order.

MY build of it is nearly complete. If should be fun to play with, and it will be easily transported.

Who REALLY wants to know ?

                floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: telecom on July 26, 2019, 03:33:42 AM
It appears that on the outside there are two repelling magnets, and one magnet in between.
It is equally spaced, and attracts to one external magnet while being repelled by another.
The way I see it, attraction and repelling forces on the central magnet act in the same direction.
In this case, how they are being equalized?
(Its quite different from the case when outside magnets are synchronized through the
rack and pinion arrangement, where outside magnets are pulling each other in the opposite directions).

Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: telecom on July 26, 2019, 06:05:28 PM
For me will be easier to use above drawer slides for the linear motion - they are very sturdy.
https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/11-3-4-in-drawer-slide/A-p8704835e
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 26, 2019, 11:25:02 PM
For me will be easier to use above drawer slides for the linear motion - they are very sturdy.
https://www.princessauto.com/en/detail/11-3-4-in-drawer-slide/A-p8704835e

What are you building ?

Sturdy is good but low friction, low mass and especially not much Wiggle, are what is needed.
.... ..... ..... ..... .... .... ....  ....
QUOTE  from Telecom
"It appears that on the outside there are two repelling magnets, and one magnet in between.
It is equally spaced, and attracts to one external magnet while being repelled by another.
The way I see it, attraction and repelling forces on the central magnet act in the same direction.
In this case, how they are being equalized?
(Its quite different from the case when outside magnets are synchronized through the
rack and pinion arrangement, where outside magnets are pulling each other in the opposite directions)."
END QUOTE

Which design are you referring to ?

              (post a link to its drawings or pdf)

Read / study the files, drawings and comments in the

https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/msg521068/#msg521068
.... ..... ..... ..... .... .... ....  ....
"how they are being equalized?"

Your question is very much too vague.   
Your question is probably already answered some where in the those drawings and explanations.
.... ..... ..... ..... .... .... ....  ....
        floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 26, 2019, 11:29:00 PM
A build of the Tinman design, so far....
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 26, 2019, 11:30:08 PM
more
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: citfta on July 27, 2019, 01:55:04 AM
Hi Floor,

I wasn't sure where you wanted me to post the video showing the start stop action of the rack design so I put it in the other thread.  Here is the link:

https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/msg537598/#msg537598

I really appreciate all you have shared with us.

Carroll
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 27, 2019, 07:16:14 PM
@ telecom

I'm not certain of  this but, although you some times respond to my posts, I'm don't recall you have ever having acctually answerd any question that I have ask you.


Since I'm in the position of Not knowing anything about your "build" or its builder,
I respectfully request that you do not present it on any of my topics.  Instead, Post
it in a topic of your own creation if you like.

               respectfuly
                       floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: telecom on July 27, 2019, 08:42:04 PM
What are you building ?

Sturdy is good but low friction, low mass and especially not much Wiggle, are what is needed.
.... ..... ..... ..... .... .... ....  ....
QUOTE  from Telecom
"It appears that on the outside there are two repelling magnets, and one magnet in between.
It is equally spaced, and attracts to one external magnet while being repelled by another.
The way I see it, attraction and repelling forces on the central magnet act in the same direction.
In this case, how they are being equalized?
(Its quite different from the case when outside magnets are synchronized through the
rack and pinion arrangement, where outside magnets are pulling each other in the opposite directions)."
END QUOTE

Which design are you referring to ?

              (post a link to its drawings or pdf)

Read / study the files, drawings and comments in the

https://overunity.com/16954/magnets-motion-and-measurement/msg521068/#msg521068
.... ..... ..... ..... .... .... ....  ....
"how they are being equalized?"

Your question is very much too vague.   
Your question is probably already answered some where in the those drawings and explanations.
.... ..... ..... ..... .... .... ....  ....
        floor
These slides have ball bearings inside and extremely low friction, in addition, no wiggle.
I'm planning to make a tinman's setup, but linear , rather than rotary, since it will be easier for me using the above slide.
Basically, two aluminum angles with the opposing magnets, and the sliding magnet in between, rather than rotating.
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: telecom on July 27, 2019, 08:44:02 PM
@ telecom

I'm not certain of  this but, although you some times respond to my posts, I'm don't recall you have ever having acctually answerd any question that I have ask you.


Since I'm in the position of Not knowing anything about your "build" or its builder,
I respectfully request that you do not present it on any of my topics.  Instead, Post
it in a topic of your own creation if you like.

               respectfuly
                       floor
I'm in the country now with no internet, writing this from the local library, sometimes can't answer immediately.
Back in the city on Tuesday next week.
BTW, the mechanism of the equalizing is still not clear to me, sorry for being annoying about it.
No more posts on your topics from me, have a nice day!
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 30, 2019, 12:09:04 AM
@telecom

 thanks
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on July 31, 2019, 10:37:18 PM
Floor's balancing, Lumen's Problem with Tinmans balancing and
                        Floor's problem with that

Some users on the forum seem to feel as if the board should be for the elite only, while simultaneously they also seem inclined to be in denial of this and contend that they are not behaving as elitists, but rather that it is simply, that they are the elite.  However it seems to me also, that when they find the behavior model of elite-ism has been threatened by some reality, their favored resort, is to denial and to some form of  impolite dismissal.  I've fallen into this my self at times. After all the elite are entitled to something, aren't they ?  Yes, we are ALL entitled. But that entitlement is to be in gratitude, for what tiny advantages life may have given us, but also to be in gratitude for the opportunity, to learn how to freely share with others.  Or else we may realize as did Mr. Schindler, in Spielberg's movie, "that he could have done more, that he, should have done more".
 
            "If I am not for my self, who will be.
             If I am only for myself, what am I".

Another kind of user on the forum is the heartless ones.  They are not really heartless,  the human animal can only live because it has a heart.  But they secretly hold, or even espouse that people are stupid, and that they should be punished when they are wrong.  They do not acknowledge that when some one is punishing us, we take a defensive posture.  We are closed off.  We do not and cannot learn, when we are closed off.  So it becomes apparent that the model in which it is espoused, that people must be "taught a lesson"... is erroneous.  Be that as it may, to play the role of the punish-er, is also an
entering into the state of mind which is elitist.  Unfortunately, the only kind of "teaching" an elitist can manage is from a point of  looking down on another, a condescension  Its the state of mind we are in, typically, whenever we are impatient with another.  Condescension is in itself, also a form of punishing another.

The elitist mind embraces punishment as a consequence for being wrong (even if this is self punishment) and  is there fore inclined toward not thinking out side of the box. There is little risk in parroting the facts, even if or when one doesn't  fully comprehend those facts.  The elitist mind ... therefore.... looses access to creativity.  You know what I mean ?  The elitist dislikes condescension and punishments from others, just as much as any one else does.  Because, its just not right.... when they are the one being punished.   And  I agree, its just not right...

All of us take offense some times. All of us offend some times.  Lets us try to "be excellent dudes".

We do as much harm to our self when we take offense, as we do harm to others when we seek to offend  them.  But when we seek to offend others, we do harm to both of us. 

So, lets move forward.......


                                               THE TOPIC

I am presenting the "Newton's magnets" interactions and also variations upon those interactions, which are intended as validations of the "Newton's magnets" principles.  This really is what this topic is about.
It is not an attempt at a proof of "over unity" by magnets.  It is a motion in that direction.


I am interested in others stating (if they are so inclined)......

          that to the best of their knowledge

 "the Newton's magnets interactions do in fact enable those magnets, as described in the attached Newtons magnets PDF file animation, to move in the manner illustrated, with what is near to, a freedom from a resistance by the magnetic forces present.

Step up, if you can and will, and be counted.

I am interested in seeing other proofs of that and similar interactions as well.

              best  wishes
                        floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Low-Q on August 01, 2019, 04:11:36 PM
@Floor


I think your idea is interesting enough to do some more testing. I'll do a test with your design where I use three discs/gears with connection rods to crank shafts that moves the opposing magnets as pistons back and forth at the same time as the third magnet is moving back and forth with right timing.
Btw, is "Newton's magnets" something you figured out or named yourself, or is it Mr. Newton who discovered this? If I google "Newton's magnets" I cannot find anything, no illustrations, other than this thread.


Vidar
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on August 01, 2019, 04:53:42 PM
@ LowQ

Please give me your response to this question below. I'm not trying to force any ones
hand  here, but I want to know who has both brains and courage on this topic.
I am not asking if the design is over unity, just if it does what is stated.

to the best of your knowledge

 "Do the Newton's magnets interactions in fact enable those magnets, as described in the attached Newtons magnets PDF file animation, to move in the manner illustrated, with what is near to, a freedom from a resistance by the magnetic forces present.


.......................
next
Believe it or not.....
Do that, and you will end up with a no O.U. result.

Don't be stuck in the idea that continuous motion is needed, or it would
work better.

It is one reason why no one has tried this in the various ways I describe.

I understand people's inclination to make these interactions into
continuous motion devices.  Conserve momentum, and all that.

BUT THAT IS, ABSOLUTELY NOT THE WAY THEY FUNCTION.
     THEY ARE NOT CONTINUOUS MOTION DEVICES.
                                    AND
THEY DO NOT HAVE CIRCULAR OR ROTATEING MOTIONS.
...........................
Next

The reason I call the Newton's magnets design that, is because it is based
on Newton's laws of motion.
..........................

best wishes
      floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on August 01, 2019, 08:50:52 PM
                                                     Newton's magnets
                                              Equal and opposite forces.

It requires the same energy expenditure to pull two magnets in attraction apart,
as those magnets delivered during their attraction to each other.
                     But allso
Because Newtons laws are valid, and because of the  two pole nature of permanent magnets...........

We can change the positions of two magnets, which are in close proximity to one another,
without doing work against the magnetic forces between those  magnets.  To see an example of this illustrated,  open the PDF attached below.


To see Newton's magnets actually done, watch this video, titled "amazeing"  @
                          https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q

or this variation of the Newton's magnets, watch this video, titled "RtAngSld"   @
                          https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x59r978                         

or to see a completely different method of neutralizing magnet force as in this video,
titled "TDForceDiagramed" 

                            at 2 minutes and 50 seconds into the video
watch                  https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6wfk0d

or to see yet another, completely different method of neutralizing magnet actions (by brute force)
see this video @
                          https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRmbekUqJcs

        floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on August 06, 2019, 05:22:15 PM
@ all readers

On a more personal note, I guess its high time that I accept and
acknowledge the contributions and support of the others involved. 

             And .....

Since this stuff really is open source and since any one may do with it
as THEY see fit,  well then I guess I need to get out of the way, respect,
and know that my peers, really do know what they are doing, just as much as I.
          And ...
To for me to relax have some fun and some f ing gratitude for it all !
             . 
You guys got this ?
             .....
           Ok, Thanks

 floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Acca on August 06, 2019, 07:35:10 PM
Newtons laws are NOT valid ....


You have been brain stamped with Education DOGMA..  Now what So called scientists have rubber stamped
this in to all educational forms is impossible to remove..  Now this is not an insult on you, just a shock
reset if you can think out beyond that mind prison construct..  I was there too...


I will not say any more as I an not an educator to anyone... Take care..


Acca...
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: citfta on August 06, 2019, 08:04:54 PM
@ all readers

On a more personal note, I guess its high time that I accept and
acknowledge the contributions and support of the others involved. 

             And .....

Since this stuff really is open source and since any one may do with it
as THEY see fit,  well then I guess I need to get out of the way, respect,
and know that my peers, really do know what they are doing, just as much as I.
          And ...
To for me to relax have some fun and some f ing gratitude for it all !
             . 
You guys got this ?
             .....
           Ok, Thanks

 floor

Yes!  Thanks so much for all your hard work and testing.  And most especially thanks for sharing what you have learned.  I plan to continue working with the ideas you have shared to see how far I can take what I have learned from you.

Thanks again!
Carroll
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: gyulasun on August 06, 2019, 10:01:38 PM
Hi Floor,
I second what Carroll just wrote above and also thank your unselfish attitude by sharing your observations on such magnetic setups.  Hopefully you come back often and please do not feel bad about bluntness, witlessness you got from a few members here.
Gyula
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on August 07, 2019, 10:14:12 PM
Newtons laws are NOT valid ....


You have been brain stamped with Education DOGMA..  Now what So called scientists have rubber stamped
this in to all educational forms is impossible to remove..  Now this is not an insult on you, just a shock
reset if you can think out beyond that mind prison construct..  I was there too...


I will not say any more as I an not an educator to anyone... Take care..


Acca...

Thanks Acca I hear what you say.

I think that Newtons observations were valid (within a non  Einstein-ian perspective)

But I would also say that, a thousand and one erroneous conclusions have been drawn from
Newtons observations.
              floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on August 09, 2019, 11:13:08 PM
This is a video of the VERY FIRST, linear motion, reciprocating motion, completion of each motion before the next motion begins ...... design,
which I presented  in September 2018.

                           its a brief video     @
                  https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x728wd9

This was the first and is still the very best of the designs of this class or type of design.   (September 2018) Slow train coming I guess.
..........................
             Another brief video, demonstrating a variation of the magnetic force neutralization along a specific direction, by balancing
attraction and repulsion.
                                 @
             https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6xgiez

               floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: citfta on August 10, 2019, 12:31:21 AM
Hi Floor,

Thanks for reposting those videos.  I do not remember seeing the first one before.  That gives me another idea to try.  I have been taking apart and reassembling my test fixture to try different configurations for the magnets.  I am trying to get the most repelling force between the repelling magnets and the least amount of force needed to remove and insert the shield magnet.  Although I haven't posted much lately I am still working on this project.  At the current time it is the only project I am working on except for the usual household chores like mowing the grass and other chores.

Thanks again for sharing.
Carroll
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on August 10, 2019, 10:36:17 PM
@ citfta

The shield magnet in the

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x728wd9   

video is configured like this attached PDF file

In my build I used  two magnets glued together edge to edge in a repulsion.
(I didn't have a single magnet broad enough).  This of course damaged
those two magnets over time.

           floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on August 10, 2019, 10:38:04 PM
Here is the PDF file again.....

So easy to miss.  It looks like the label for the png drawing.....
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on August 10, 2019, 10:45:56 PM

  I do not remember seeing the first one before. 
Carroll

I took down the original posting of it, because in the context in which I was thinking about
those interactions, I thought I would need to use two complimeting devices.  That idea did
not pan out.

    floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: citfta on August 12, 2019, 12:51:55 PM
I have done some rough testing using the idea from the magforshield pdf you posted.  Based on the results I have ordered some larger magnets to use as the shield magnet.  I ordered a couple of different thicknesses to see what effect that has on the  shielding ability.  I also now have another idea to try with one fixed magnet and the shield magnet and the other repelling magnet free to move when the shield magnet is removed.  I want to see how much more or less movement I get when only one magnet is allowed to move.  That build will also be based on the magforshield pdf.  Until I saw your video you reposted I did not realize  you could get that strong of repulsion with the magnets oriented that way.

Take care.
Carroll
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on August 14, 2019, 08:47:07 PM
@citfta

There is no "magforshield pdf "  uploaded by me.  Search for it and see for your self.

There is a MagforShield 1b.pdf. 

Everyone please try to be more precise and clear in the communications.

                 floor




Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on August 14, 2019, 08:49:54 PM
@citfta

Lets please keep these discussions to the Magnets Motion and Measurement topic.

     floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on August 20, 2019, 11:20:17 PM
                                                   Newton's magnets
                                              Equal and opposite forces.

It requires the same energy expenditure to pull two magnets in attraction apart,
as those magnets delivered during their attraction to each other.
                     But also
Because Newtons laws are valid, and because of the  two pole nature of permanent magnets...........

We can change the positions of two magnets, which are in close proximity to one another,
without doing work against the magnetic forces between those  magnets.  To see an example of this illustrated,  open the PDF attached below.


1.  To see Newton's magnets actually done, watch this video, titled "amazeing"  @
                                                                                                                              https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q

2. or this variation of the Newton's magnets, watch this video, titled "RtAngSld"   @
                                                                                                                              https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x59r978                         

3. or to see a completely different method of neutralizing magnet force as in this video, titled "TDForceDiagramed" 
                           at 2 minutes and 50 seconds into the video watch               
                                                                                                           @   https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6wfk0d

4. or watch this video titled "direct approach"  @
                                                                        https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6xgiez

5. or this video titles "Floor's brute force neutralization part 1"  @
                                                                                                             https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7f0md2

6. or  this video titles "Floor's brute force neutralization part 2"  @
                                                                                                   https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7f0o4w

        floor
                                   SEE THIS PDF BELOW
https://overunity.com/18137/newtons-magnets/dlattach/attach/171711/
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on August 21, 2019, 10:31:28 PM


Here is that PDF file "Newtons magnets"
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on August 25, 2019, 05:43:48 PM
I don't have anything to add at this point.  Honestly, I am poping this
topic back up, because I think its worth doing so.

    floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: citfta on August 25, 2019, 06:13:49 PM
I am surprised that so few people seem to see the possible benefits from all the research you have done.  As far as I can tell only Norman and Brad and I have actually tried to apply what you have shared.  I think Brad has lost interest but hopefully Norman  will be back at it as soon as he recovers from his heart attack.  I will be back at it before long.


Carroll
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Low-Q on August 26, 2019, 12:43:56 PM
I am surprised that so few people seem to see the possible benefits from all the research you have done.  As far as I can tell only Norman and Brad and I have actually tried to apply what you have shared.  I think Brad has lost interest but hopefully Norman  will be back at it as soon as he recovers from his heart attack.  I will be back at it before long.


Carroll
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Floors intensions is just to post his findings, but doesn't claim that this can lead to overunity. Rotary concepts has already been demonstrated, and doesn't work.
However, it is more ways of doing this. Not only the rotary one.
I have not got sufficient time to do much lately, partially because I still wait for bearings for my own project, and there has been lots of preparing for my daughter's confirmation that was celebrated yesterday. Also, the summer has been busy painting railings around the porch.
I expect that it will be more time to do projects from now on, including some ideas I have with Floors findings.


Vidar
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on August 30, 2019, 10:37:58 PM
Correct me if I'm wrong, but I think Floors intensions is just to post his findings, but doesn't claim that this can lead to overunity.

Vidar

Hi Low Q

This topic "Newton's magnets" is intended to show
                               proofs of
force neutralization between magnets along specific vectors.
                                 not
                         over unity proofs


Force neutralization between magnets along specific vectors
                          is not in and of itself,  over unity.

                But it can be used to arrive at over unity by magnets.

              floor
Title: Re: Newton's Magnets
Post by: Floor on September 04, 2019, 09:48:59 PM
                                         Newton's magnets
                                              Equal and opposite forces.

It requires the same energy expenditure to pull two magnets in attraction apart,
as those magnets delivered during their attraction to each other.
                     But allso
Because Newtons laws are valid, and because of the  two pole nature of permanent magnets...........

We can change the positions of two magnets, which are in close proximity to one another,
without doing work against the magnetic forces between those  magnets.  To see an example of this illustrated,  open the PDF attached below.


1. To see Newton's magnets actually done, watch this video, titled "amazeing"  @
                          https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q

2. or this variation of the Newton's magnets, watch this video, titled "RtAngSld"   @
                          https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x59r978                         

3. or to see a completely different method of neutralizing magnet force as in this video,
titled "TDForceDiagramed"

                            at 2 minutes and 50 seconds into the video
watch                  https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6wfk0d

4. or to see yet another, completely different method of neutralizing magnet actions (by brute force)
see this video @
                             https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x728wd9

5. or to see a completely different method of neutralizing magnet force as in this video, titled "TDForceDiagramed"

6. or watch this video titled "direct approach"  @
                                                                        https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6xgiez

7. or this video titles "Floor's brute force neutralization part 1"  @
                                                                       https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x7f0md2

8. or  this video titles "Floor's brute force neutralization part 2"  @
                                                                       https://www.dailymotion.com/videox7f0o4w
        floor
                                   SEE THIS "Newton's magnets" PDF BELOW
                https://overunity.com/18137/newtons-magnets/dlattach/attach/171711/