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### Author Topic: Newton's Magnets  (Read 33448 times)

#### Floor

• Guest
##### Re: Newton's Magnets
« Reply #15 on: July 13, 2019, 06:48:55 PM »
ALSO

Thanks for the updates / videos Tinman

@

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRmbekUqJcs

and

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhyfD1GiCXU

I think I see your design / intent,  good luck with it.

Note:  Undesired up and down forces (luc's force) will be high, especially with the leverage
factor present as the radius of the gears.

floor

#### Low-Q

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2847
##### Re: Newton's Magnets
« Reply #16 on: July 15, 2019, 04:33:15 PM »
Refering your the first video:
When you let it go like a pendulum the first time, I can see that the rotormagnet is somewhat trapped in the statorfield, but not much. It has a lot to do with alignment, strength etc of the magnets - i guess. Big differenc when you remove one of the statormagnets. What force would you expect is required to remove one of the statormagnets when the rotormagnet is lined up with them? If it takes no force to do so, it would be easy for the momentum in the rotor to remove it a bit so the rotor can continue. However, the same momentum must force the statormagnet back towards a repelling force so the rotormagnet can enter the gap between them again.

Edit: In your second video, you made a 3D model of my "post-it" design (further up in this thread). I know from the FEMM simulation, that this design will not work.

Vidar

Chet posted my video in the other thread,but i will post it here as well,as this thread seems dedicated to the gating effect you have discovered Floor.

The first video is just a small test rig i threw together to see if there were any notable reaction forces--and none were found.

So i decided to put together a rotary design of mine,using Floors gate design.
The second video shows the 3D printed parts i have so far,but i decided to make the drum and gear 1 piece. Those new parts are on the printer ATM.

Anyway,you get the idea of what i am trying to do,and make the build easier.

It would seem, ATM anyway,that Floor's gate design may be what we have been looking for.
Keep up the good work Floor

Sorry about the printer noise in the second video.
I didn't think it would be that loud

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRmbekUqJcs

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KhyfD1GiCXU

#### Floor

• Guest
##### Re: Newton's Magnets
« Reply #17 on: July 15, 2019, 08:27:54 PM »
Same principle of operation is in short video here @

https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6xihh7

Same principles are at work but .... in the video, they are used via a different magnet
alignment / geometry.

https://overunity.com/18137/newtons-magnets/dlattach/attach/171711/

The design LowQ  has presented and the Tinman is modifying / testing, has similarities in principles.

I think there are meritorious aspects to the "Vidar design". I don't  think it will self loop, unless
the shielding is partially and cyclically removed then installed.

It may be that there is sufficient energy in the rotary motion to supply that  install/ remove and still excess energy remaining.

I am confident the above is true of some of the linear designs.

It remains for the Tinman to demonstrate for us,  his rotary design as a go or no go.  I am of course hopeful that  the LowQ design or some variation of it will be a go.

floor

#### lumen

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1388
##### Re: Newton's Magnets
« Reply #18 on: July 15, 2019, 10:26:55 PM »
@ Vidar

I built that same rotary design in your sketch about a year ago and it does not work for the same reason that all these designs cannot operate.
Ceramic magnets seem to deal with the problem better in that in a repelling position they only build pressure to a point then seem to yield to the pressure.

The problem is that the center magnet is not working as a shield but more as a field director.
The magnet pair that work in attraction become one larger magnet and push harder on the repelling magnet.
This effect is not felt on the center magnet which can freely move between the outer two but the force on the repelling outer is increased and the force on the attracting is decreased to near zero when measured from a stationary point.

So in the end what you have is the two outer magnets repel each other with 20oz force without the center magnet and with the center magnet one repels with 0oz force and the other with 40oz force.

Now if the ceramic magnet can only reach 20oz force before it gives in, then the increase does not occur and the operation shows a gain of 20oz force.
The simulations indicate this problem using neodymium magnets and actual tests indicate the same, but have not tried ceramic magnets.

#### Floor

• Guest
##### Re: Newton's Magnets
« Reply #19 on: July 16, 2019, 05:28:52 AM »
First off, both Vidar and I (floor) have concluded that this particular rotary design will not just sit there and spin.

quotes are from Lumen

"I built that same rotary design in your sketch about a year ago "
Show us evidence of that build, or don't claim it

"and it does not work for the same reason that all these designs cannot operate."
Show us the evidence of your results or don't claim it.
ALSO
Please be specific as to what "these" designs are.

"Ceramic magnets seem to deal with the problem better in that in a repelling position they only build pressure to a point then seem to yield to the pressure."

What problem ? Some problem is yours ?
Then your statement becomes simply
gibberish.

Why do you use the first use of,  the word "seem" in the above paragraph.
Please don't reply.
What does the phrase "seem to yield" mean in this context ?
Please don't reply.

"The problem is that the center magnet is not working as a shield but more as a field director."
This is not a problem it is a FEATURE.

"The magnet pair that work in attraction become one larger magnet and push harder on the repelling magnet. "
Unclear statement. Harder than what?
And  I'll just say, no they don't

"This effect is not felt on the center magnet which can freely move between the outer two but the force on the repelling outer is increased and the force on the attracting is decreased to near zero when measured from a stationary point."

Totally unclear statement.
Probably untrue as well ?

So in the end what you have is the two outer magnets repel each other with 20oz force without the center magnet and with the center magnet one repels with 0oz force and the other with 40oz force.

In what "end" ?
and
The inexpensive little ceramic magnets I have used exert
forces while at near  distances of hundred of grams.

"Now if the ceramic magnet can only reach 20oz force before it gives in, then the increase does not                occur and the operation shows a gain of 20oz force.  The simulations indicate this problem using neodymium magnets and actual tests indicate the same, but have not tried ceramic magnets."
More B.S.

Finally, Ill say that, when at very close range (nearly touching) there are some domain re-orientations that occur in the ceramic type magnets I have used (real world not just simulations).
These are accounted for in the demonstrations in the videos I have presented.  Their total effect is negligible in the total of the outcomes of the interactions.

Lumen dude, I don't feel like being nice about it this evening, Please just go away.
Please don't clutter the topic. Your input here was worse than useless.

sorry
floor

#### Floor

• Guest
##### Re: Newton's Magnets
« Reply #20 on: July 16, 2019, 05:44:08 AM »
To see a short video on the ACTUAL SUBJECT of this topic.
click
https://youtu.be/1_CrU7M46S4
or for a similar design click
https://www.dailymotion.com/video/x6gzr2q

Also see the attached PDF files below.

floor

#### Floor

• Guest
##### Re: Newton's Magnets
« Reply #21 on: July 16, 2019, 06:33:17 AM »
The Tinman's latest update.

He blew it badly / buggered and botched the design majorly.  Har har.
@
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Skz78qQJt24

The shield magnet he used in the device is a neodymium (he states this in his video).

Any of the ceramic magnets he's using (when at close proximity to the neodymium magnet),
will be totally overwhelmed and therefore attracted to the Neodymium magnet.

Those ceramic magnets he uses, will even stick to the powerful neodymium magnet when facing
the neodymium as like polarity to like polarity (try that one for your self). Tinman was surly already aware of this.

His demo is less than useless.
Except for that it once again, shows his Intent.

All in all not a surprise to me,  but we gave him another chance to either
redeem his self and / or reveal his intent.

No further questions

floor

#### Floor

• Guest
##### Re: Newton's Magnets
« Reply #22 on: July 16, 2019, 06:51:38 AM »
Lets see how long this video stays up.

Here is a demo by the Tinman, but with all magnets of a ceramic type.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rRmbekUqJcs

floor

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5365
##### Re: Newton's Magnets
« Reply #23 on: July 16, 2019, 02:12:09 PM »
When you try and help others out-->

Quote
It remains for the Tinman to demonstrate for us,  his rotary design as a go or no go

When it's a no go you get this-->

Quote
He blew it badly / buggered and botched the design majorly.  Har har.
@
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Skz78qQJt24

The shield magnet he used in the device is a neodymium (he states this in his video).

Any of the ceramic magnets he's using (when at close proximity to the neodymium magnet),
will be totally overwhelmed and therefore attracted to the Neodymium magnet.

Those ceramic magnets he uses, will even stick to the powerful neodymium magnet when facing
the neodymium as like polarity to like polarity (try that one for your self). Tinman was surly already aware of this.

His demo is less than useless.
Except for that it once again, shows his Intent.

All in all not a surprise to me,  but we gave him another chance to either
redeem his self and / or reveal his intent.

No further questions

floor

You have got to be kidding.

Some one dose not know his magnets as well as he thinks he dose
Some egg on your face

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=KDisjS97j5o

TinMan

#### Floor

• Guest
##### Re: Newton's Magnets
« Reply #24 on: July 16, 2019, 03:35:13 PM »
Very well, Tinman

I  accept that there is egg on my face.  I appologise sincerly-
Once in a while, I loose it and just wig out / flame.

Thank you for hanging in there in the face of it  and  sticking to your ground any way.

I will however put up short video of a ceramic magnet sticking to a neo magnet,
like poles together.  Not as a justification for my blowing up, but for the readers
at large to be aware.

respect
floor

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5365
##### Re: Newton's Magnets
« Reply #25 on: July 16, 2019, 03:55:35 PM »
Very well, Tinman

I  accept that there is egg on my face.  I appologise sincerly-
Once in a while, I loose it and just wig out / flame.

Thank you for hanging in there in the face of it  and  sticking to your ground any way.

I will however put up short video of a ceramic magnet sticking to a neo magnet,
like poles together.  Not as a justification for my blowing up, but for the readers
at large to be aware.

respect
floor

As i stated in my video,i know if the neo is to strong,and the ferrite to weak,like poles will stick.'
In fact,you will find that the ceramic magnet now has either very little magnetic strength left,or it has flipped it's pole's altogether.

But i took care as to what strength magnets i mixed,so as this very situation did not take place.

I also made it very clear in my video that my version should in no way reflect on the outcome of your linear version,which i also did in the thread at OUR right from the start--Carroll will verify this.

So i have done my best to do it right,and i was a little shocked to read your comment about my true intentions,as no one would like to see an all magnet motor running on his bench more than me--or any self sustaining system for that matter.

My true intentions have always remained the same,and that is to find freedom from the cartels of power.

Brad

#### Floor

• Guest
##### Re: Newton's Magnets
« Reply #26 on: July 16, 2019, 03:58:13 PM »
@ Lumen

The same applys.

My apologies for all the harshness, it was uncalled for.

I just get defensive and attacking about the designs some times.

Again I apologize.

floor

#### Floor

• Guest
##### Re: Newton's Magnets
« Reply #27 on: July 16, 2019, 03:59:57 PM »
@ Tinman

Thanks
floor

#### tinman

• Hero Member
• Posts: 5365
##### Re: Newton's Magnets
« Reply #28 on: July 16, 2019, 04:11:44 PM »
@ Tinman

Thanks
floor

All good Floor

I have not given up yet,just trying to work out why or how the rotary design shows this sticky spot,but the linear design dose not?.

Added
Video renamed,and description edited.

Brad

#### lumen

• Hero Member
• Posts: 1388
##### Re: Newton's Magnets
« Reply #29 on: July 16, 2019, 07:20:01 PM »
@ Tinman

The best part of these experiments is not whether it works or fails, but what is learned.
Your test actually confirms that in a sliding device there may be a gain in energy because the repelling ceramic magnet is not able to repel under some changed conditions.

Consider the ceramic magnet that is in attraction to the Neodymium is in fact increasing the strength against the repelling ceramic magnet by adding to the field direction.
The increased repelling force surpasses the maximum repelling force of that ceramic magnet and part of the magnets domains change direction and it becomes unable to repel any harder.

I know this because I have the same device and only use neodymium magnets, the results are very different.

@ Floor
Relax a bit... No one here is trying to prove anyone wrong.
I know a simple description is hard to follow.

I think Tinman may have shown why the sliding setup with ceramic magnets may actually work, and why it is doubtful that the same effect could work with Neodymium magnets.