Language: 
To browser these website, it's necessary to store cookies on your computer.
The cookies contain no personal information, they are required for program control.
  the storage of cookies while browsing this website, on Login and Register.

GDPR and DSGVO law

Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding.
Amazon Warehouse Deals ! Now even more Deep Discounts ! Check out these great prices on slightly used or just opened once only items.I always buy my gadgets via these great Warehouse deals ! Highly recommended ! Many thanks for supporting OverUnity.com this way.

User Menu

A-Ads

Powerbox

Smartbox

3D Solar

3D Solar Panels

DC2DC converter

Micro JouleThief

FireMatch

FireMatch

CCKnife

CCKnife

CCTool

CCTool

Magpi Magazine

Magpi Magazine Free Rasberry Pi Magazine

Battery Recondition

Battery Recondition

Arduino

Ultracaps

YT Subscribe

Gravity Machines

Tesla-Ebook

Magnet Secrets

Lindemann Video

Navigation

Products

Products

WaterMotor kit

Statistics


  • *Total Posts: 513975
  • *Total Topics: 15294
  • *Online Today: 44
  • *Most Online: 103
(December 19, 2006, 11:27:19 PM)
  • *Users: 1
  • *Guests: 9
  • *Total: 10

Author Topic: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1  (Read 39014 times)

Offline ramset

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 6599
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #15 on: February 08, 2019, 05:00:53 PM »
Sorry to post here .
I have great respect for floor and his open source approach and experiments [testable and verifiable or ? to interested parties

yes I see that F6FLT has no velvet glove for his iron fist....this does make me squirmy too.
but to say he is like MH ?? yeesh
this man F6FLT rolls up the sleeves and experiments ,and shares his work too ,and is a firm believer in the what ifs?
his sledgehammer diplomacy to avoid wasted time and get the experimenters to return here   ....and search for a true anomaly .
 ??? ??? I dunno ...

I have found his experimental  contributions to the open source community more than refreshing.
his attempts to raise the standards here ,in this quite diverse international community [all skill levels and education and languages etc etc]
that is gonna be hard to do and remain productive ,as they say in the big house "you do you"
just one mans opinion

he is a fearless experimenter......we do need more of the higher end open source experiments here and elsewhere [LENR NMR etc etc edit to add  MH considered all such experiments fantasy or fancifal thinking,and would play google paste  for answers in areas he had no training or skill set [none know it all here and never will ,all must admit when their knowledge has no frame of reference [and F6FLT does admit his boundaries ] .




I am uncertain if George has done these experiments and quality measurements ??
we have a member who has done much work here with  harvesting charge from electrolytes and utilizing that charge to enhance the efficiency ...member Centraflow ,he actually uses the C02 for this charge..  and  makes a fuel too.  All has been open sourced here and elsewhere. PM for a link if you can't find in a search.Edit I will add a link when I can.
  No stone left unturned..........
« Last Edit: February 08, 2019, 07:06:31 PM by ramset »

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline George1

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 246
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #16 on: February 10, 2019, 03:06:56 PM »
To Floor and gyulasun
--------------------------------
Thanks a lot for your replies. This is already a positive and constructive dialogue. I would like to ask you to give me some time to prepare carefully my answers.
Please ask other questions, if any.
Best regards,
George

Offline Floor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1101
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2019, 12:20:00 AM »
@George1

Keep on keepen on.

      good luck with your explorations.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #17 on: February 12, 2019, 12:20:00 AM »
Sponsored links:




Offline George1

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 246
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #18 on: February 12, 2019, 03:16:33 PM »
Thank you, Floor. Thanks a lot for your encouragement and good will.
------------------
The text below is for Floor, gyalasun and for all other colleagues who intend to lead a positive and constructive dialogue.
------------------
1) Our expert in calorimetry is a very dilligent and meticulous experimenter and because of this reason he prepared a huge and a detailed report for all calorimetric experiments related to the electrolyzer, if the latter is considered as a total heat generator. The report consisted of 800 (eight hundred) standard type-written pages. I doubted that anybody in this forum would have the patience to read and assimilate thoroughly the information in all these 800 pages. That is why I insisted on severe shortening of the report. So now we are working over a severely shortened version of the report.
2) Meanwhile why don't you carry out the calorimetric experiments, related to the electrolyzer as described in the link https://mypicxbg.files.wordpress.com/2019/01/pages_1-6.pdf ? We are sure that in this forum there are a lot of highly qualified specialists in the field of calorimetry and electric engineering. The experiments can be carried out comparatively easily if you have the necessary equipment and the related qualified experimenter(s). If you carry out your own experiments, then you will be absolutely sure what exactly and really happens inside the electrolyzer. Because it seems to us that whatever experimental results of ours will be declared false by F6FLT and by people similar to him.
3) And here is a simple logical construction. (The numbers below are only illustrative.) Assume that the battery generates 100 J of electric energy. Then 6 outcomes are possible (on the right):
a) 100 J < 100 J Joule's heat + 60 J heat of burning of hydrogen;
b) 100 J = 20 J Joule's heat + 80 J heat of burning of hydrogen;
c) 100 J < 70 J Joule's heat + 90 J heat of burning of hydrogen;
d) 100 J < 110 J Joule's heat + 50 J heat of burning of hydrogen;
e) 100 J > 10 J Joule's heat + 80 J heat of burning of hydrogen;
f) 100 J > 60 J Joule's heat + 15 J heat of burning of hydrogen.
It is evident therefore that whatever happens at least one of the fundamental laws is violated. But there is nothing special and tragic in this fact -- any rule/law has its exceptions.
4) In our poor opinion the situation here is the same as with the steam engine. For many years people had watched boiling water in a teapot. But only a few men (Newcomen, Smeaton, Boulton, Watt, etc.) noticed the fact that boiling water, which generates steam, could be used as an energy generator, called steam engine. The same for the electrolyzer. For many years people had considered the electrolyzer as a hydrogen generator only. But it is also a generator of Joule's heat in addition.
------------------
Please ask your questions, if any. Any positive and constuctive criticism is always welcome.
Looking forward to your answers.
Best regards,
George

Offline Floor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1101
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2019, 08:24:05 PM »
@George 1

Thank You for hanging in.

          Note... There was a topic on the forum .....  in which the idea was presented
that an industrial scale electrolysis /  hydrogen gas generator could be located at the bottom of a
mountain.  Simply put. 

             outputs

!. Resistive electric  heating
2. Lift from the hydrogen rising
3. burning the hydrogen, heat (at the top of the mountain).
4. falling hot water.



Thanks again,  I will study the link you posted.
         
        best wishes
                floor

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #19 on: February 12, 2019, 08:24:05 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline gyulasun

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4005
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #20 on: February 12, 2019, 10:46:03 PM »
Hi George,

It is good you have appeared again here.  Probably a 800 page long report is not needed, instead what you offer as a severely shorted version sounds good.  From my part I have mostly the same questions I already wrote,  let me write them here too:
1) what efficiency numbers did you find which consistently were > 1? 
2) what liquid did the burning Hidrogen heat up? Was it water? or a solution (liquid mixture)?
3) What was the DC current level (mA, Amper) used for the electrolysis to obtain Hidrogen?
4) Why did not you consider the created Oxigen, besides Hidrogen? Or no need for it? Or just avoiding the possibility of creating oxyhidrogen that may become dangerous?

I assume the data you are to provide will include the duration of the tests.

Thanks and just keep at it too.

Gyula

Offline F6FLT

  • Sr. Member
  • ****
  • Posts: 409
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2019, 07:46:21 PM »
...
Because it seems to us that whatever experimental results of ours will be declared false by F6FLT and by people similar to him.
...

They are false until proof of the contrary, for the given reason.

Provide us with the schematics of your experiment, the details of your measuring devices and the data.
In matter of overunity and evidence of overunity, a claim accompanied by an inconsistent and simplistic theory is by far not enough.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #21 on: February 13, 2019, 07:46:21 PM »
Sponsored links:




Offline George1

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 246
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #22 on: February 19, 2019, 09:20:23 AM »
To floor.
-------------
Hi, floor.
Thanks a lot for your reply.
You wrote that ".....There was a topic on the forum .....  in which the idea was presented
that an industrial scale electrolysis /  hydrogen gas generator could be located at the bottom of a
mountain....". Sounds very interesting. Would you be so polite to give some more details? Where is this link
in the forum? I cannot find it.
Looking forward to your answer.
Best regards,
George
 
 

Offline George1

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 246
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2019, 09:53:57 AM »
To gyalasun.
-----------------
Hi, Gyula.
Thanks a lot for your reply.
Firstly, as if it is not an easy job to shorten severely an 800 pages report and preserve the essence by choosing the most suitable experimental data. (I am not a specialist in experimental calorimetry.)
Secondly, our calorimetry expert is not very quick in doing things. But I am constantly pressing him to be in a hurry as much as possible.
So in my poor opinion we will be ready in the very nearest future. We will fulfill all of your requirements.
Best regards,
George     

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #23 on: February 19, 2019, 09:53:57 AM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline George1

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 246
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #24 on: February 19, 2019, 10:01:15 AM »
To F6FLT
-------------------------------
Hi, F6FLT
Thanks a lot for your reply.
You wrote: "They are false until proof of the contrary, for the given reason.
Provide us with the schematics of your experiment, the details of your measuring devices and the data.
In matter of overunity and evidence of overunity, a claim accompanied by an inconsistent and simplistic theory is by far not enough."
Yes, you are absolutely right. I hope that we will be ready in the very nearest future. We will fulfill all of your requirements.
Please also have a look at my last post to gyulasun.
Best regards,
George

Offline George1

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 246
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2019, 10:25:06 AM »
While waiting for our calorimetry expert to complete his bunch of most suitable and illustrative experimental data I would llike to suggest a few
simple logical constructions related to the topic. 
And here is the first logical construction. (Please also refer to my previous posts.)
Let us write down again the inequality
50 kWh < 50 kWh + 33 kWh      (1)
where
50 kWh is the electric energy generated by the battery (the left side of the above inequality (1));
50 kWh is the Joule's heat generated by the electrolyzer (the right side of the above inequality (1));
33 kWh is the heat of burning of hydrogen (the right side of the above inequality (1)).
It is evident that the above inequality (1) illustrates a violation of the law of conservation of energy, which is based on the validity of Ohm's law
as well as on the validity of the Joule's first law (related to Joule's heating).
-------------------------------
Furthermore let us write down the equality
50 kWh = 17 kWh + 33 kWh      (2)
where
50 kWh is the electric energy generated by the battery (the left side of the above equality (2));
17 kWh is the Joule's heat generated by the electrolyzer (the right side of the above equality (2));
33 kWh is the heat of burning of hydrogen (the right side of the above equality (2)).
----------------------------
It is evident that the above equality (2) illustrates (a) a violation of the Ohm's law and (b) a violation of the first Joule's law as these two
violations are based on a probable validity of the law of conservation of energy. Therefore it is evident that the problem has two possible solutions.
Firstly, if we assume that the law of conservation of energy is valid, then both the Ohm's law and the first Joule's law (related to Joule's heating) are not valid.
Secondly, if we assume that the first Joule's law (related to Joule's heating) and the Ohm's law are valid, then the law of conservation of energy is not valid.
----------------------------
It is a well-known fact that within a period of more than 150 years electric engineers have been
proving unambiguously the validity of the first Joule's law (related to Joule's heating) and the validity of the Ohm's law. (Perhaphs tens of millions of experiments.) Therefore in this particular case which considers the hydrogen generating electrolyzer as a total heat generator, it is evident, that it is a matter of a violation of the law of coservation of energy.
-----------------------------
In the above text we use the equality 33 kWh/kg = 120 MJ/kg = lower heating value (LHV) of hydrogen. If we use the equality 40 kWh/kg = 142 MJ/kg =
= higher heating value (HHV) of hydrogen, then the result will be even worse for the supporters of the law of conservation of energy in this particular case.
-----------------------------
Besides if we use the equality 142 MJ/kg = 40 kWh/kg = HHV of hydrogen, then equality (2) will be modified as
50 kWh = 10 kWh + 40 kWh     (2A)
It is evident that equalities (2) and (2A) cannot be true simultaneously because the value of the generated Joule's heat as if depends on LHV and HHV of hydrogen.
Therefore here is another proof for the invalidity of the law of conservation of energy in this particular case.
-----------------------------
And at last let me share with you my personal poor opinion. I myself was STRONGLY AGAINST any experiments carried out by our team because of the following reason.
Please look at the five experimentally proved equations below.
1) First Joule's law: Q = I x I x R x t (experimentally proved for both solid and liquid resistors);
2) Ohm's law: V = I x R (experimentally proved for both solid and liquid resistors);
3) Faraday's law of electrolysis: m = z x I x t (experimentally proved);
4) LHV of hydrogen = 120 MJ/kg = 33 kWh/kg (experimentally proved);
5) HHV of hydrogen = 142 MJ/kg = 40 kWh/kg (experimentally proved).
The above 5 (five) equations have been successfully proved experimentally within a period of more than one century. Actually it is a matter of five experimental facts.
You have only to gather together these 5 experimental facts and form one united whole, which inevitably leads to the conclusion that the law of conservation of
energy is not true in this particular case. But let us repeat again that any rule/law has its exceptions and there is nothing special and tragic in this fact.
(Note. Any standard electrolyzer is a simple combination of solid and liquid resistors connected in series.)
------------------------------
Looking forward to your answers.
Best regards,
George

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #25 on: February 19, 2019, 10:25:06 AM »
3D Solar Panels

Offline gyulasun

  • without_ads
  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 4005
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #26 on: February 19, 2019, 12:08:56 PM »
Hi George,

The only problem is that real and good science should be based on actual measurement results.  It is okay that by logical deductions which are based on experimentally proven equations, the setup you proposed "should give" efficiency > 1.
BUT this > 1 efficiency then should be measured, that is science in the correct sense.

I am not against you or against your group or against the possibility of having efficiency > 1,  ok?

And especially in such a case when you write this: "Therefore here is another proof for the invalidity of the law of conservation of energy in this particular case."  the measurement results are crucial and simply a must to backup your statement. 

Thanks
Gyula

Offline Floor

  • Hero Member
  • *****
  • Posts: 1101
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #27 on: February 19, 2019, 08:54:13 PM »


Here is a similar topic.
https://overunity.com/16302/hho-as-real-uo-system/

But I did not find the topic I had in mind.

Offline George1

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 246
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #28 on: February 21, 2019, 08:53:49 AM »
To gyulasun.
-------------
Hi Gyula,
Thanks a lot for your reply.
=======
1) You wrote: "The only problem is that real and good science should be based on actual measurement results.  It is okay that by logical deductions which are based on experimentally proven equations, the setup you proposed "should give" efficiency > 1.
BUT this > 1 efficiency then should be measured, that is science in the correct sense.
I am not against you or against your group or against the possibility of having efficiency > 1,  ok?
And especially in such a case when you write this: "Therefore here is another proof for the invalidity of the law of conservation of energy in this particular case."  the measurement results are crucial and simply a must to backup your statement."
------------
Yes, after a careful thought we decided that you are absolutely right. We perfectly agree with you. Real experiments are necessary for proving of our statement. So I keep pressing hard our expert in experimental calorimetry to do the necessary things as quickly as possible.
=======
2) Besides (as if already mentioned in some of my previous posts) we do not insist by all means on the necessity of cosidering the hydrogen generating electrolyzer as a machine of efficiency bigger than 1. In our poor opinion it's perfectly enough if the hydrogen generating electrolyzer is considered as a simple and cheap heating device, which (a) is much more efficient than any standard Joule's heating device, and which (b) saves money.
=======
Looking forward to your answer.             
Best regards,
George

Offline George1

  • Full Member
  • ***
  • Posts: 246
Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #29 on: February 21, 2019, 09:24:22 AM »
To Floor.
-----------------
Thanks a lot for your reply.
==========
1) You wrote: "Here is a similar topic. https://overunity.com/16302/hho-as-real-uo-system/".
-----------------
But this is a fantastic idea! This guy is really smart! Thanks a lot for sending to me this link! If this "going-up-hydrogen" idea is added to the conception, described in my previous posts, then the heating efficiency of the electrolyzer would become even much higher. Don't you think so?   
==========
2) You wrote: "But I did not find the topic I had in mind."
------------------
You mean that there is another good idea in this forum related to our discussion? Can't we search for it together?
==========
Looking forward to your answer.
Best regards,
George
 

 

OneLink