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Author Topic: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1  (Read 156259 times)

Offline George1

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Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #690 on: July 27, 2021, 02:46:51 PM »
To sm0ky2 (and to all other colleagues, who are interested in this topic).
======================
Please read carefully an thoroughly (and many times, if necessary) our two posts of July 21, 2021, 01:35:10 PM and of July 22, 2021, 12:32:49 PM.
---------------------------------------
Please answer the four questions below.
---------------------------------------
1) Do you accept the validity of the first Joule's law of heating (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard solid, liquid or gaseous conductor)? Yes or no? (Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!)
2) Do you accept the validity of the first Faraday's law of electrolysis (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard electrolyte)? Yes or no? (Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!)
3) Do you accept the validity of the value of the hydrogen's HHV (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years). Yes or no? (Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!)
4) Do you accept the validity of the simple obvious fact that while electrolysis takes place "...constant pure water and cooling agent supply could keep constant the electrolyte's temperature, heat exchange, mass and ohmic resistance, respectively..."? Yes or no? (Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!)
----------------------------------------
Looking forward to your four answers.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy


Offline sm0ky2

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Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #691 on: July 27, 2021, 09:51:38 PM »
I do not accept your generalized summary.
You are missing information.



Offline sm0ky2

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Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #692 on: July 27, 2021, 09:58:37 PM »
If you truly have the test apparatus you claim to have,
it should be very easy to observe the mistakes in your theory.


If you need further clues:
Measure the voltage drop across a resistor placed externally to the electrolysis chamber.
You will see that a good deal of the power going into the system does not end up at ground.
This is much different than the solid conductor.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #692 on: July 27, 2021, 09:58:37 PM »
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Offline George1

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Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #693 on: July 28, 2021, 01:17:11 PM »
To sm0ky2.
=====================
No, I am not missing information. But it is more than evident for all honest members of good will of this forum that you keep constantly distorting my words, and you keep constantly imitating lack of understanding thus trying to manipulate the audience in a clumsy and unskillful manner. You are simply the next clumsy manipulator, who tries to make some money by serving the official science mafia. You are simply an unworthy person! Shame on you!
=====================
Asking my four questions for the 2nd time.
---------------------------------------
1) Do you accept the validity of the first Joule's law of heating (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard solid, liquid or gaseous conductor)? Yes or no? (Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!)
2) Do you accept the validity of the first Faraday's law of electrolysis (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard electrolyte)? Yes or no? (Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!)
3) Do you accept the validity of the value of the hydrogen's HHV (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years). Yes or no? (Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!)
4) Do you accept the validity of the simple obvious fact that while electrolysis takes place "...constant pure water and cooling agent supply could keep constant the electrolyte's temperature, heat exchange, mass and ohmic resistance, respectively..."? Yes or no? (Only one word -- either "yes" or "no"!)
----------------------------------------
Looking forward to your four answers for the 2nd time.

Offline Floor

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Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #694 on: July 28, 2021, 01:47:07 PM »

To George1

You are  missing information also it is evident for all honest members of good will of this forum that you constantly distort other peoples words, and are trying to manipulate the audience in a clumsy and unskillful manner.

You are nothing more than a troll presenting a false premise here, offering nothing and
having nothing to back your idiotic claim up with.
This is a stupid game you play.

Demand response to your stupid question forever more .

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #694 on: July 28, 2021, 01:47:07 PM »
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Offline onepower

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Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #695 on: July 28, 2021, 04:37:46 PM »
This is an interesting debate...

It looks like George is using the composition/division fallacy.  https://yourlogicalfallacyis.com/composition-division
Quote
You assumed that one part of something has to be applied to all, or other, parts of it; or that the whole must apply to its parts.
Often when something is true for the part it does also apply to the whole, or vice versa, but the crucial difference is whether there exists good evidence to show that this is the case. Because we observe consistencies in things, our thinking can become biased so that we presume consistency to exist where it does not.

He is arguing that just because experiment 1 is true and experiment 2 is also true that experiment 1 + 2 must also be true. In another variation one could argue a cat is real and a dog is also real which must mean a Dog-Cat must also be real but obviously isn't.

Most new to electrodynamics often make similar composition mistakes. Many decades ago when I first started I once thought that if a current source A charged battery B then by placing a light bulb between (A and B) I could do more work. However this was not the case and the dissipation of energy in the bulb reduced the battery charge current by an equivalent amount. These two concepts are very similar and George would seem to have made a similar error in my opinion.

Regards
AC

Offline George1

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Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #696 on: July 30, 2021, 02:37:02 PM »
To those stubborn amateurs here in this forum, who simply reject obvious physical reality.
=============================================
=============================================
Don't beat about the bush! And stop generating endless rows of absurd and ridiculous arguments, which have nothing to do with the topic! Because you already resemble clowns!
==============================================
Read carefully and thoroughly (and many times, if necessary!) the short text below and answer the two simple questions at the end of the text!
==============================================
Constant current I of 7.98 A flows through a standard sulphuric acid solution (which is a standard liquid conductor/electrolyte) within a period of 1 second. The Ohmic resistance of the electrolyte is equal to 0.5 Ohm.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUESTION 1. What is the value of the electric energy, which is consumed by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of electric energy does the electrolyte consume?
QUESTION 2. What is the value of the Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of Joule's heat does the electrolyte generate?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Simply answer the above two simple questions.
Looking forward to your two answers.
 

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #696 on: July 30, 2021, 02:37:02 PM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #697 on: July 31, 2021, 06:17:44 PM »
Why do you ask others, instead of measuring these for your self ?

Offline sm0ky2

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Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #698 on: July 31, 2021, 08:14:54 PM »
Perhaps, George, you do have all the information.


I should have said that “I” am missing information


“standard H2SO4 solution”, (of what concentration?)
Approx. 15.96V (is this DC?, from a battery a power supply?)
What are the electrode materials and surface area?
Molar count or at least an approximate volume?
Distance between electrodes?
Because of the PH, i also need the starting temperature.




Or of course, if you feel you are correct, we can skip all of this
And you could just loop your system to make it power itself.


Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #698 on: July 31, 2021, 08:14:54 PM »
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Offline George1

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Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #699 on: August 03, 2021, 04:23:17 PM »
To Floor.
===============================
But you are not reading my posts, dear colleague! Please read carefully my post of July 21, 2021, 01:35:10 PM, which describes in detail a bunch of REAL EXPERIMENTS! For your convenience I am giving below again the text of my post of July 21, 2021, 01:35:10 PM.
===============================
===============================
BEGINNING OF THE TEXT.
===============================
===============================
===============================
PLEASE NOTE -- THE TEXT BELOW DESCRIBES SOLELY AND ONLY REAL EXPERIMENTS!
======================
Here is a detailed description of our first group of experiments.
======================
======================
EXPERIMENT 1.
1) A standard copper wire (a standard SOLID conductor) is connected to a standard DC source thus forming a circuit.
2) The circuit is equipped with a standard ammeter and with a standard ohmmeter. Besides we have at our disposal a standard chronometer.
3) The ammeter registers a current of 7.98 A.
4) The ohmmeter registers an Ohmic resistance of 0.5 Ohm.
5) The chronometer registers a time interval of 1 second. (A current of 7.98 A flows through a copper wire of Ohmic resistance of 0.5 Ohm within a period of 1 second.)
6) Using (a) the above three experimental results (7.98 A, 0.5 Ohm and 1 second) and (b) the first Joule's law of heating we can easily calculate that:
a) the electric energy, consumed by the copper wire, is just equal to 31.84 J;
b) the so called Joule's heat, generated by the copper wire, is just equal to 31.84 J too.
7) Please note that in order to get the amount of generated Joule's heat of 31.84 J we need solely and only (a) three experimental results (7.98 A, 0.5 Ohm and 1 second) and (b) three measuring devices (an ammeter, an ohmmeter and a chronometer). No electric engineer in the world would measure the generated heat of 31.84 J by using of calorimetry methods. Every electric engineer in the world would take for granted this generated heat of 31.84 J. Because otherwise he/she would accept the fact that the first Joule's law of heating (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard solid, liquid or gaseous conductor) is not valid.
=======================
=======================
EXPERIMENT 2.
1) A standard sulphuric acid solution (a standard LIQUID conductor/a standard electrolyte) is connected to a standard DC source thus forming a circuit.
2) The circuit is equipped with a standard ammeter and with a standard ohmmeter. Besides we have at our disposal a standard chronometer.
3) The ammeter registers a current of 7.98 A.
4) The ohmmeter registers an Ohmic resistance of 0.5 Ohm.
5) The chronometer registers a time interval of 1 second. (A current of 7.98 A flows through an electrolyte of Ohmic resistance of 0.5 Ohm within a period of 1 second.)
6) Using (a) the above three experimental results (7.98 A, 0.5 Ohm and 1 second) and (b) the first Joule's law of heating we can easily calculate that:
a) the electric energy, consumed by the electrolyte, is just equal to 31.84 J;
b) the so called Joule's heat, generated by the electrolyte, is just equal to 31.84 J too.
7) Please note that in order to get the amount of generated Joule's heat of 31.84 J we need solely and only (a) three experimental results (7.98 A, 0.5 Ohm and 1 second) and (b) three measuring devices (an ammeter, an ohmmeter and a chronometer). No electric engineer in the world would measure the generated heat of 31.84 J by using of calorimetry methods. Every electric engineer in the world would take for granted this generated heat of 31.84 J. Because otherwise he/she would accept the fact that the first Joule's law of heating (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard solid, liquid or gaseous conductor) is not valid.
-------------------------------------------
(Note. It is evident that the last items 1 - 7 of this Experiment 2 are absolutely identical to items 1 - 7 of previous Experiment 1. The latter is a clear manifestation of the first Joule' law of heating, which has been experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard solid, liquid or gaseous conductor.)
-------------------------------------------
8/ While a current of 7.98 A flows through the electrolyte within a period of 1 second however a certain amount of hydrogen has been generated. The mass of the generated hydrogen is just equal to 0.0000000833112 kg as follows from the first Faraday's law of electrolysis.
9) Please note that in order to get the mass of the released hydrogen we need solely and only (a) two experimental results (7.98 A and 1 second) and (b) two related measuring devices (an ammeter and a chronometer). No expert in electrochemistry in the world would measure the mass of the generated hydrogen by using of balance, scales or any other weighing machine. Every expert in electrochemistry in the world would take for granted this mass of 0.0000000833112 kg. Because otherwise he/she would accept the fact that the first Faraday's law of electrolysis (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years) is not valid.
10) If we burn/explode the released hydrogen, then a certain amount of heat would be generated. And this heat would be just equal to 11.83 J . In other words, we can write down the equality
H = (HHV) x (m) = 11.83 J,
where
H = heat generated by burning/exploding of the released hydrogen
HHV = higher heating value of hydrogen = 142 MJ/kg
m = mass of the released hydrogen = 0.0000000833112 kg
11) Please note that no expert in thermodynamics in the world would measure the generated heat of 11.83 J by using of calorimetry methods. Every expert in thermodynamics in the world would take for granted this generated heat of 11.83 J. Because otherwise he/she would accept the fact that the value of the hydrogen's HHV (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years) is not valid.
12) In one word, on one hand we have a consumed electric energy of 31.84 J and this is the inlet energy. On the other hand we have (a) Joule's heat of 31.84 J and (b) heat H of 11.83 J, which is generated by burning/exploding of the released hydrogen. The sum of the two last pieces of energy is just equal to the outlet energy.
13) Therefore we can write down the inequalities
(31.84 J) + (11.83 J) > 31.84 J <=> 43.67 J > 31.84 J <=> outlet energy > inlet energy.
14) For the efficiency/COP of the above described process we can write down the equality
efficiency = COP = (43.67 J)/(31.84 J) = 1.37
15) And it is evident that COP = 1.37 <=> COP > 1.
==============================
==============================
SUMMARY.
1) The above experimental results for inlet and outlet energies are based on:
a) the readings of three standard measuring devices (an ammeter, an ohmmeter and a chronometer);
b) the validity of the first Joule's law of heating (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard solid, liquid or gaseous conductor);
c) the validity of the first Faraday's law of electrolysis (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years for any standard electrolyte);
d) the validity of the value of the hydrogen's HHV (experimentally proved millions of times within a period of 200 years).
2) In one word, having in mind the text above we can conclude that any of the millions (either industrial or laboratory) standard electrolyzers all over the world is actually a heater, which has COP/efficiency greater than 1.
-----------------------------------------------------
(Note. Any standard (either industrial or laboratory) electrolyzer could be designed as a built-with-fin-tubes (i.e. with extended-surfaces) heat exchanger. In this way there would be more emphasis on cramming more heat-transfer surfaces into less and less volume. This approach could be suitable for a better utilization of the released Joule's heat. Besides the same built-with-fin-tubes (i.e. with extended-surfaces) heat exchanger design could be used for the box/container, in which the burning of the released hydrogen would take place. In this way as if there would be a better utilization of the heat, generated by the burning of the released hydrogen.)
------------------------------------------------------
3) If the first Joule's law of heating and/or the first Faraday's law of electrolysis and/or the value of the hydrogen's HHV proved to be experimentally invalid, then this fact would lead to the creation of entirely new and revolutionary branch of science and technology. The latter would be a wonderful alternative too.
===============================
===============================
That's all about our first group of experiments.
===============================
===============================
And here is a short description of our second group of experiments.
1) Actually our second group of experiments is absolutely identical to our first group of experiments (the latter being described in our previous post) with the only difference that Ohmic resistance is decreased 10 times and as a result the ohmmeter registers an Ohmic resistance of 0.05 Ohm. In this case:
a) the consumed electric energy is equal to 3.184 J;
b) the generated Joule's heat is equal to 3.184 J too;
c) the heat, generated by the burning/exploding of the released hydrogen, is equal to 11.83 J (which is just the same as in our first group of experiments),
2) So for efficiency/COP we can write down the equalities
COP = ((3.184 J) + (11.83 J))/(3.184 J) <=> COP = (15.014 J)/(3.184 J) <=> COP = 4.72
3) It is evident that
COP = 4.72 <=> COP > 1.
4) In one word, (keeping constant current I and time period t) the smaller the Ohmic resistance R, the bigger the efficiency/COP.
===============================
===============================
There is a third group of experiments of ours, which has even a greater scientific, technology and commercial value than the above described two groups of experiments of ours. But for the present we would not like to reveal the secret of our third group of experiments.
===============================
===============================
PLEASE NOTE -- THE TEXT ABOVE DESCRIBES SOLELY AND ONLY REAL EXPERIMENTS!
===============================
===============================
===============================
END OF THE TEXT.
===============================
Do you have any objections against any part of the text above?
Looking forward to your answer.

Offline George1

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Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #700 on: August 03, 2021, 04:27:53 PM »
To sm0ky2.
===============================
Ah, this is already another song! :) This is already a constructive dialogue! :)
We will consider carefully your last post and will write to you in the nearest future.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #700 on: August 03, 2021, 04:27:53 PM »
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Offline sm0ky2

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Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #701 on: August 03, 2021, 11:37:22 PM »
It is during experiment 2 where you have slipped one in.


You did not measure this quantity of ‘heat’.
You ASSUMED it was there because of experiment 1.


However you did not account for the non-thermal energies, some of which result in free ions.


Offline George1

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Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #702 on: August 05, 2021, 10:04:35 AM »
To sm0ky2.
=========================
Do you accept the fact/axiom, that the first Joule's law of heating is valid for any standard liquid conductor/electrolyte?

Offline George1

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Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #703 on: August 06, 2021, 12:49:12 PM »
Read carefully and thoroughly (and many times, if necessary!) the short text below and answer the two simple questions at the end of the text!
==============================================
Constant current I of 7.98 A flows through a standard sulphuric acid solution (which is a standard liquid conductor/electrolyte) within a period of 1 second. The Ohmic resistance of the electrolyte is equal to 0.5 Ohm.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
QUESTION 1. What is the value of the electric energy, which is consumed by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of electric energy does the electrolyte consume?
QUESTION 2. What is the value of the Joule's heat, which is generated by the electrolyte, that is, how many Joules of Joule's heat does the electrolyte generate?
---------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Simply answer the above two simple questions.
Looking forward to your two answers for the 3rd time.

Offline Floor

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Re: A SIMPLE ELECTRIC HEATER, WHICH HAS EFFICIENCY GREATER THAN 1
« Reply #704 on: August 06, 2021, 07:47:10 PM »
@George1

So..

1. We connect two electrodes, one to each end of a pine wood log.
2. We pass an electric current through the wood, until it heats
sufficiently enough to catch fire.

3. We measure the calories of heat produced by the resistive heating of the log.
4. We measure the calories of heat produced by the combustion of the log.
5. We measure the total electric power used during the process.

     and VOILA

                Over unity ?

     
 floor

 

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