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Author Topic: Magnetic flux control idea  (Read 1193 times)

Offline Low-Q

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Magnetic flux control idea
« on: December 06, 2018, 11:11:23 PM »
Hi,


Do you remember this guy? https://www.youtube.com/watch?reload=9&v=wI7j6YYZ8-I
Look at the wheel and how its made. Attached picture is his work. Not my idea. His intensions is very different from mine, but the physical construction is very similar on mine.
Instead of using water and buoyancy, I want to (first of all make a much smaller model) replace the tubes with rod magnets that is polarized through diameter - or just steel rods.


What is left outside the wheels is larger portions of visible magnets or steel rods at the narrow end, and smaller portion of visible magnets or steel rods at the wide end.
Now, if we let the magnetic poles go radially, so north is ponting outwards for all magnets.
Then fill the volume inside with ferrofluid. Or just use steel rods.


Inside the wheel the magnetic field is closed in a narrow loop that is kept inside the ferrofluid, but outside in the air the magnetic field is stretching further out.
Then we place long magnets above or under, and on the outside of the wheels along the plane with them. So now the narrow ends that expose more rotormagnet repel or attract the stationary magnets more than the wide end does.


What I try to mimick is the experiment similar to the curie point motor. Making the area ahead of the stator magnet more attractive than the area after.


It's late, so I will make some drawings tomorrow if you don't quite understand what I mean.

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Magnetic flux control idea
« on: December 06, 2018, 11:11:23 PM »

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Magnetic flux control idea
« Reply #1 on: December 06, 2018, 11:57:00 PM »
Here is a simple sketch with steel rods.


Steel rods as grey
Magnet
Ferrofluid as brown.


Keep in mind that the narrow and wide end of these wheels stays in the same orientation when the wheels turn.


Vidar

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Magnetic flux control idea
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2018, 06:34:38 PM »
I made some simulations in FEMM. I can simulate in only one plane, and the depth of each parts is the samw in FEMM. That means this simulation is not telling everything.
I tried to simulate six different positions of the wheel, just to see how the Y-axis force is. At 30° angles it is lots of uncertainties wether the results ends up in wanted torque or not. I hope the attached images speaks for itself.


Vidar

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Re: Magnetic flux control idea
« Reply #2 on: December 07, 2018, 06:34:38 PM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Magnetic flux control idea
« Reply #3 on: December 08, 2018, 04:51:42 PM »
The grey transparent areas in the images in previous post is the with of magnetic material in the wheel that depends on the position of the steel rod (green).
Also, the magnet at the bottom points its poles horizontally. N to the left and S to the right, or vica verca.


Vidar

Offline shylo

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Re: Magnetic flux control idea
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2018, 10:20:45 AM »
Hi Vidar,
how is the ferro-fluid orientated inside the wheel?
At the narrow point is it the same volume compressed, at the wide point same volume stretched thin?
Thanks artv

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Re: Magnetic flux control idea
« Reply #4 on: December 09, 2018, 10:20:45 AM »
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Offline Low-Q

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Re: Magnetic flux control idea
« Reply #5 on: December 09, 2018, 02:16:43 PM »
Hi Vidar,
how is the ferro-fluid orientated inside the wheel?
At the narrow point is it the same volume compressed, at the wide point same volume stretched thin?
Thanks artv
The ferrofluid is not compressable, so it will be filled the complete volume all the time. Since it is a fluid, it will stay oriented as this shape. The steel rods is just "floating" inside and will stirr around in the fluid.
Gaskets around each steel rod prevents fluid to escape.
Steel rods are free to move horizontally. Yellow wheels have separate angled axels (not shown) that is attached to each fixed structure.
So, there is no compression or "stretch" of this fluid.


Vidar

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Magnetic flux control idea
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2018, 08:50:31 PM »
Shylo, this image might explain better. You see that the steel rods are submerged in ferrofluid inside between the wheels.
See explanations of principle of operation in the text in the image.


Vidar

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Re: Magnetic flux control idea
« Reply #6 on: December 09, 2018, 08:50:31 PM »
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Offline shylo

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Re: Magnetic flux control idea
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2018, 09:36:10 AM »
Won't the weight of the fluid just make the wheel come to rest with the wide part at the bottom?
artv

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Magnetic flux control idea
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2018, 10:01:23 AM »
Won't the weight of the fluid just make the wheel come to rest with the wide part at the bottom?
artv
No. It can't. You see the shafts? Marked as axle 1 and 2 that is.
These shafts are connected separately to each the two wheels. As you turn the wheels around, they will turn around in two different axis that is off axis with respect to eachother, because the shafts are not aligned, but have an angle between them.
So the wide and narrow part will stay where they are even if the wheels are turning. I made a short video showing how they turn. Between the wheels I put the ferrofluid. I do ofcourse need to seal the compartment between the wheels so the fluid doesn't poor out.
https://youtu.be/R7uRDvxw1ks


Vidar

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Re: Magnetic flux control idea
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2018, 10:01:23 AM »
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Offline shylo

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Re: Magnetic flux control idea
« Reply #9 on: December 11, 2018, 09:42:29 AM »
Ok I understand your design, but I don't see why it should rotate.
It will just find balance and sit there.
The wide part stays at ~90deg. and the narrow at~270deg. why should it rotate?
artv

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Magnetic flux control idea
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2018, 12:52:52 PM »
Ok I understand your design, but I don't see why it should rotate.
It will just find balance and sit there.
The wide part stays at ~90deg. and the narrow at~270deg. why should it rotate?
artv
That has crossed my mind too, but the wide part stays at 0 ° and narrow part stays at 180° - all the time. The wide part isn't falling down to the bottom at 270°, and the narrow part isn't rising to the top at 90°. The ONLY thing that goes around is the flat disc wheels and the steel rods. The wheels is just acting as walls to keep the ferrofluid inside.
However, Im not claiming that this will work :) , but my idea is that the narrow part exposes approx 90% of the moving rods/parts to the magnetic field. At the bottom approx 50% is exposed. At the widest part 0% is exposed to the magnetic field.
Since the ferrofluid is stationary and fluid, there is no torque in this part at all. Yes, the wheels are turning, but the ferrofluid doesn't need to turn with it. However, its viscosity will finally force the ferrofluid to rotate with the wheels and rods, but that is actually not doing anything.


Since the ferrofluides shape and orientation is stationary and liquid, and the only moving/rotating magnetic parts that "changes size" is the steelrods, the stationary ferrofluid will dominate and cover for the magnetic field more and more as the rods moves from the narrow to the wide side. By doing so, less magnetic field is attracted to the bottom steel rod alone, than the field interacting with the rods earlier, closer to the narrow part, and less and less magnetic fields interact with the steel rods from the bottom toward the wide part.


The idea is that the magnetic interaction with the rods is not balanced, but insted imbalanced by attracting the moving rods more on the narrow-bottom side than the bottom-wide side.


I just got some rubber rings that I will put the steel rods through as a seal. I just need to print out a small model of the wheels, shafts etc. I got approx 50cl of ferrofluid left, so the model will be small.
I also expect more of a mess, than a working model, but it is fun to try :)

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Re: Magnetic flux control idea
« Reply #10 on: December 11, 2018, 12:52:52 PM »
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Offline shylo

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Re: Magnetic flux control idea
« Reply #11 on: December 12, 2018, 09:40:35 AM »
 I changed my letters somehow?I think you would be better to test and see if the ferrofluid really does reduce magnetic attractionto the steel.Also any fluid will cause friction on the disks and rods.But if you do build I wish you good-luck and look forward to your results.artv

Offline F6FLT

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Re: Magnetic flux control idea
« Reply #12 on: December 12, 2018, 03:34:50 PM »
It is a mechanical and magnetic system where no new laws of physics have been claimed in order for it to work. Therefore as it is obeying the laws of mechanics and electromagnetism, it is also describable by a Lagrangian which is fully compatible and logically equivalent to a description by forces, torques and their works. Therefore there is no extra energy. It's as simple as that.

Is this "idea" claimed as a type 1 perpetual motion?
A positive answer implies that the given description of the "idea" is inconsistent for the above reason.

Is not this "idea" claimed as a type 1 perpetual motion?
Then either the "idea" is to tap an unknown energy source (a clue about which?) or the laws of mechanics or electromagnetism are indeed implicitly challenged (which ones?)


Offline Low-Q

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Re: Magnetic flux control idea
« Reply #13 on: December 12, 2018, 05:05:46 PM »
It is a mechanical and magnetic system where no new laws of physics have been claimed in order for it to work. Therefore as it is obeying the laws of mechanics and electromagnetism, it is also describable by a Lagrangian which is fully compatible and logically equivalent to a description by forces, torques and their works. Therefore there is no extra energy. It's as simple as that.

Is this "idea" claimed as a type 1 perpetual motion?
A positive answer implies that the given description of the "idea" is inconsistent for the above reason.

Is not this "idea" claimed as a type 1 perpetual motion?
Then either the "idea" is to tap an unknown energy source (a clue about which?) or the laws of mechanics or electromagnetism are indeed implicitly challenged (which ones?)
Hi there. I haven't claimed anything. I just need to figure out how magnetism "works" on this. I know just as well as everyone else, that overunity or perpetual motion can't work.
This time I got stuck. I do not know what is happening to the device. I don't know what mechanism that counterforce the rotation, except friction. For me, as I write, I have no good reasons to why it doesn't work. I want to find that reason. To do that, I must build, because I can't simulate this.


Vidar

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Re: Magnetic flux control idea
« Reply #14 on: December 12, 2018, 06:12:23 PM »
I changed my letters somehow?I think you would be better to test and see if the ferrofluid really does reduce magnetic attractionto the steel.Also any fluid will cause friction on the disks and rods.But if you do build I wish you good-luck and look forward to your results.artv

Hi! You probably hit he B-button above the text box :-)
I have printed out the first two discs. Two more equal discs is in production. These will just laminate the first ones so the rubber gaskets doesn't fall off.


This fluid have a rather high viscosity. It is mostly oil. Friction is an issue, but also when the gaskets slides back and forth on the steel rods as the wheels rotate. The steel rods I'll be using is 304 steel (Almost stainless). They react on magnetism, but not as good as iron. More like the ferro fluid. This will help because I have only strong neodym magnets available, that would probably destroy the device by crunch it together.


I'll start with six rods on this. Few enough to feel how the magnet interact with the device at different positions/small turns. This way I will learn how the ferrofluid in combination with more or less exposed steel rods will work. So I hope the friction is low enough to sense some forces backwards and forwards as I turn the wheel by hand. I can just dream about a self running thing. I honestly cannot imagine it will work with no hands involved. Let's see how the outcome is - good or bad.


I attach a picture of the first discs with small rubber gaskets in them.


Vidar

 

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