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Author Topic: Modeling induction with a rotating blower  (Read 3391 times)

ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 868
Modeling induction with a rotating blower
« on: November 17, 2018, 06:24:18 PM »
Say that we have a blower as shown on the figure below, that consists of 4 radial pipes, blowing air to 4 opposite directions. This construct rotates clockwise. It is above a number of small and light objects on the ground.

Let's consider that the air blown when hitting the ground expands to the directions left and right. When the angle is near perpendicular, then it can be considered that it expands to both directions almost equally.

Now say that the blower rotates, but doesn't move. When the air blow goes over each object, it first moves it to the left, and then to the right, with equal force. Thus in spite that the blower rotates, this doesn't move the objects on the ground to any direction.

Now consider that the blower rotates and moves down. Then when the air blow goes over each object, it first moves it to the left, but then with a greater force to the right, because after the air flow goes over the object, the blower is closer to the object, and thus the blow is greater.

Thus as the result, contrary to the intuition, the objects move to the right, not to the left. This also shows the Lenz law.

Now one can change the configuration, making the blower instead of moving down, to tilt its axis down and up, the result should be similar.

This is to explain induction by a rotating electric field that goes stronger (or weaker) similar to how it happens during induction.

I previously used an analogy of a leaf blower in a certain conditions, but maybe this was not well understood, so this is to explain it further.

I think with a certain configuration of the blower, it can really be physically made to work as said above. Or it can be shown using some real blower. Or it can be modeled with some 3D simulator.

The drawing below was made with Inkscape.

Modeling induction with a rotating blower
« on: November 17, 2018, 06:24:18 PM »

ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 868
Re: Modeling induction with a rotating blower
« Reply #1 on: November 18, 2018, 07:09:39 PM »
I changed the drawing (below) replacing the objects on the ground with a rubber duck, floating on the water. This may show it better.

The rotating blower supposed to represent an atom (dipole) in the core. With a rotating electric field created by electrons orbiting the nucleus, moving towards the wire (magnetic field increasing). And the duck represents an electron in the wire.

ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 868
Re: Modeling induction with a rotating blower
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2018, 06:46:08 AM »
I will explain it in a way that at least one person understood, i don't know why it is so difficult to understand.

The first figure below shows that when the air is blown behind the duck, then the duck moves to the right.

On the second figure, the hair blow dryer is held 1 second in the position 1, then 1 second in the position 2. Because the hair dryer is more down when it is behind the duck, the duck moves more forward than it moves backwards. As the result, the duck finally gets a speed to the right. This experiment can be easily done.

The drawing with a rotating blower above, is similar. The axis of the rotating blower moves downwards, thus the blower's pipe is more down when it is behind the duck, and thus the duck moves to the right.

This is to approximately describe what happens when the rotating electric field of an atom in the core, that is magnetic field, increases, and why that makes electrons in the wire to move in a certain direction. This is not an exact analogy, there are many electrons in the wire, connected by repulsing each other. Thus a force in a certain direction (a component of which is in that direction) makes all electrons to move in that direction, and a force in the opposite directions makes all electrons to move in the opposite direction.

But it approximately gives an idea why the magnetic field has to increase for electrons in the wire to move in a certain direction.

PS Above by blower rotating i meant the pipes of the blower rotating around the axis (the axis of the blower). By blower moving i meant the axis of the blower moving downwards.

« Last Edit: November 24, 2018, 04:44:26 PM by ayeaye »

Re: Modeling induction with a rotating blower
« Reply #2 on: November 24, 2018, 06:46:08 AM »

ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 868
Re: Modeling induction with a rotating blower
« Reply #3 on: November 28, 2018, 01:26:13 PM »
Just to clarify, we can only look at an electron in the atom, and an electron in the wire. We consider the component of the repulsion force that is parallel to the wire. It is the same as with the blower, but in that case the electron rotating the atom is like a blower that blows to all directions. We cannot get such blower, so we use hair dryer instead, it blows at different angles inside a cone. Considering that we only need the directions inside that cone, this is a quite direct analogy.

ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 868
Re: Modeling induction with a rotating blower
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2018, 06:58:49 PM »
This explanation of induction with a floating duck and a blower, is by its nature relative as well. Thus we cannot understand it when we see what happens at one moment of time. But we can understand it when we see what happens at two moments of time, with a small time interval.

The same we can understand why two wires with the current in the opposite directions repulse, or why two atoms with electrons rotating in the opposite directions repulse, by only the movement of charged particles and electrostatic forces between them. By seeing what happens at several moments of time, with some time interval. Modeling it in that way is the same as modeling it by seeing the flow of electrons contracted, with precise enough modeling, both ways of modeling would provide the same results.

Say we want to model induction in a way similar to how they model repulsion of two wires with opposite currents, seeing it only at one moment of time, using contraction. Then we would see something like the force being more concentrated at one direction, when we also consider the speed with which the atom moves towards the wire, or becomes more tilted towards the wire. That is the speed by which the magnetic force increases. I'm sure that this can be done, but will result in a very complex equation, which may be used in calculations, but will not make it easy to understand.

Re: Modeling induction with a rotating blower
« Reply #4 on: November 29, 2018, 06:58:49 PM »

ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 868
Re: Modeling induction with a rotating blower
« Reply #5 on: November 30, 2018, 07:22:18 PM »
One needs a toy duck, and a hair dryer, to replicate this experiment. I have no hair dryer, so i cannot show it to you, these cost \$6 in eBay, i don't know how much rubber ducks cost. When doing this experiment, be careful not to make the hair dryer wet, this is very dangerous.

ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 868
Re: Modeling induction with a rotating blower
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2018, 07:53:38 PM »
I'm sorry but, this is the only hair dryer that i have. And a rubber fish, or it's maybe a rubber whale, and my skillet that i filled with water.

In the following video, the hair dryer is directed downwards, and moved from ahead of the toy fish, to the back, at the same time moving downwards towards the water. Finally the toy fish moves ahead.

This may not be that good, just what i could do using the minimal items that i have. And to give an idea of how to do it.

https://archive.org/details/mindb

Re: Modeling induction with a rotating blower
« Reply #6 on: December 04, 2018, 07:53:38 PM »

ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 868
Re: Modeling induction with a rotating blower
« Reply #7 on: December 06, 2018, 08:15:15 PM »
A rubber fish

ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 868
Re: Modeling induction with a rotating blower
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2018, 06:29:37 AM »
The biggest problem with that experiment was that it was difficult to make the fish to move straight, it turned and moved side wise too easily. So add a bigger fin keel if possible. To make it to move more straight and show what this experiment is about to show, the movement of an electron in the wire.

Re: Modeling induction with a rotating blower
« Reply #8 on: December 08, 2018, 06:29:37 AM »

ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 868
Re: Modeling induction with a rotating blower
« Reply #9 on: December 09, 2018, 04:33:09 AM »
It is that on the following figure, that this experiment has to demonstrate. Consider also that when the atom instead of moving towards the wire, rotates towards the wire, then the result should be the same.

ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 868
Re: Modeling induction with a rotating blower
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2018, 11:12:30 AM »
It is about the final speed that the electron in the wire gets, after all this process, the electron in the atom rotating a certain distance, and during that time the atom moving some distance towards the wire. About all that happens in a small time period delta t.

Re: Modeling induction with a rotating blower
« Reply #10 on: December 15, 2018, 11:12:30 AM »

ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 868
Re: Modeling induction with a rotating blower
« Reply #11 on: April 01, 2020, 06:39:10 PM »
Induction is inherently a very symmetric process. Thus it may not be possible to break the symmetry in induction itself. But overunity may be possible exactly because of that. That electromagnetically it has to remain symmetric, no matter what. This may happen at the cost of some side effects, like some additional currents to capacitors, heat, electrostatic effects, maybe even some electrochemical effects.

ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 868
Re: Modeling induction with a rotating blower
« Reply #12 on: April 04, 2020, 11:30:13 AM »
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