Language:
To browser these website, it's necessary to store cookies on your computer.
The cookies contain no personal information, they are required for program control.
the storage of cookies while browsing this website, on Login and Register.

### GDPR and DSGVO law

Storing Cookies (See : http://ec.europa.eu/ipg/basics/legal/cookies/index_en.htm ) help us to bring you our services at overunity.com . If you use this website and our services you declare yourself okay with using cookies .More Infos here:
https://overunity.com/5553/privacy-policy/
If you do not agree with storing cookies, please LEAVE this website now. From the 25th of May 2018, every existing user has to accept the GDPR agreement at first login. If a user is unwilling to accept the GDPR, he should email us and request to erase his account. Many thanks for your understanding

Custom Search

### Author Topic: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator  (Read 14664 times)

#### F6FLT

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 405
##### Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #45 on: November 26, 2018, 07:47:10 PM »
...
There are three solutions to amplify this.

1. Use a material that has a much higher drift velocity than copper, For instance the semi conductor Indium Antimonide can have an electron mobility 10000x higher than copper. This is also why almost every Hall sensor uses a semi conductor sample because the very high electron mobility amplifies the lorentz force considerably. This option is pretty expensive as you need to order a wafer and perhaps also laser cut it.

Hi Broli,
I'm aware of the problem of the drift velocity, it's a critical point, that's why I placed the biggest 120K resistors in the maximum gradient area. The drift velocity is Vd=µ.E with µ the mobility. Across the resistor, we have half the generator voltage, that's why I put resistors, otherwise with copper wires only, E would be very small (less than 1 mV). So I was expecting Vd to be thousands times higher in the resistor than in the copper wire.

Quote
2. Using multiple turns somehow. So far this proves impossible as can be seen any "return" causes the oppesite effect.
I agree. It's the same problem as Faraday disk or homopolar generators in general.

Quote
3. Use mechanical motion to move the electrons at high speeds. This method is as shown on the very first post of this thread. The advantage is that this is very easy and much cheaper to test. Both rotational and linear variants can be build very similar to Smudge's conveyor belt idea.
This should work but in mechanics, I'm the problem, I'm not good at it . I'll try to calculate Vd first, to know if I should have seen something or not in my setup, and then prospect for other materials like Indium Antimonide that you suggested.

#### broli

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2246
##### Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #46 on: November 26, 2018, 09:16:31 PM »
You bring up a good point about resistors. In particular carbon. I did not do enough research into this to explore carbon based materials to amplify the drift velocity. I know graphene has a very high electron mobility. I don't know about graphite. I guess a good test is to perform a Hall voltage test. If it is in the mV range near a B field it would be very good.

A setup that could use such material would be one where a high mobility material would leave between two magnets. As the A field decreases longitudinally the charge would be pushed in the same direction of motion. Alternatively this can be done mechanically by a timing belt and a stepper motor.

It's actually surprising to see how cheap a graphene sheet can be these days: http://aliexpi.com/NVf

#### F6FLT

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 405
##### Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #47 on: November 27, 2018, 10:29:24 AM »
I understood the measurement problem last night. It is not an experimental question, but a question of principle.

It is impossible to measure anything with the voltmeter connected between the two mid-points of the two branches. The result is null because the same rule that makes us see a potential difference between these two points by applying the effect of the vector potential along the measured circuit, also makes us see an equal potential difference but in opposite direction along the voltmeter measurement circuit.

It is a general measurement problem when a voltmeter is part of a loop through which there is a magnetic flux, or along which an induced electric field appears from the vector potential. It is no longer at all like measuring potentials in a simple network of resistors and generators.

Nevertheless, the question of drift velocity must be maintained. It reminded me of articles on how to detect the vector potential far from its source.
A plasma such as a neon bulb is used: a current flows in the opposite direction in the two branches of the lamp, with high drift velocity electrons. The opposite effect of A on the electrons of each branch causes a measurable phase difference between the two branches. See the attached file below "Confirmation Measurements of Vector Potential Waves". This article follows two theoretical papers which also contain descriptions of interesting experiments that have been done, and are within reach of non-physicists but well equipped in the RF field. These two other papers are here:
https://aip.scitation.org/doi/10.1063/1.4816100
https://www.worldscientific.com/doi/abs/10.1142/S0217984911026024

This is a high frequency varying vector potential, but the idea may be adaptable when, as here, we are looking to detect a spatially varying vector potential. I'm thinking about it now.

#### F6FLT

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 405
##### Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #48 on: November 27, 2018, 11:54:22 AM »
.

#### broli

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2246
##### Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #49 on: November 27, 2018, 01:16:46 PM »
Interesting read. However the attached paper concludes that they can't confirm nor deny the existence of the vector potential.

But indeed a CCFL gas discharge tube could also be highly desirable method to test the effect of this longitudinal induction force. Electrons can reach speeds of 100,000m/s in these tubes. Doing some research I found a paper where the hall voltage is measured in such tube. Since the hall voltage and this longitudinal force would be in the same range. This is quite a significant voltage.

The cool part is that the high voltage AC that usually drives these tubes has no effect on. The electron will be accelerated in either direction AS LONG as the tube is kept on the same side. An interesting test is to check if the voltage would drop if the tube is put on the other side!

EDIT: Infact the plasma CCFL does not even have to be curved at all. Analyzing the induced E field for uniform movement from left to right shows a longitudinal E-field as well (which makes sense).

#### F6FLT

• Sr. Member
• Posts: 405
##### Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #50 on: November 28, 2018, 10:53:15 AM »
Interesting read. However the attached paper concludes that they can't confirm nor deny the existence of the vector potential.
Hi Broli,
It is very difficult to conduct such an experiment because there is a terrible pollution by the classical hertzian wave. I also tried at 144 and 435 MHz, and failed to get a conclusive result: any mm of conductor, for example the lamp terminals, act as an antenna and disturb the measurement with signals much stronger than those expected from the potential vector.
When working with RF frequencies, everything must be shielded, coaxial cables of excellent quality, and the slightest leakage is catastrophic if the measured effects are weak.

Nevertheless what gave credibility to Zimmerman's second paper was the phase shift of the signals in each branch of the lamp. This phase shift is impossible as an effect of the classical hertzian wave. Without this information, I would not have attached any value to his paper. It's a pity that KJ6VW couldn't confirm it.

Quote
But indeed a CCFL gas discharge tube could also be highly desirable method to test the effect of this longitudinal induction force. Electrons can reach speeds of 100,000m/s in these tubes. Doing some research I found a paper where the hall voltage is measured in such tube. Since the hall voltage and this longitudinal force would be in the same range. This is quite a significant voltage.
Very interesting track to detect the effect of A because we avoid a current measurement loop. I'll think about it.

#### ayeaye

• Hero Member
• Posts: 866
##### Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #51 on: November 28, 2018, 11:15:48 AM »
I tell such thing needs more electrons. I don't know why, but such thing seems to need a lot of electrons. I may guess that tilting the movement of electrons may happen better at low speed. It creates the vortex of electrons better at low speed. Many many years ago I tested a circuit with a microcontroller in it, and this was on the territory of a high voltage substation. There was so much interference that it did weird things, started to run code from an arbitrary addresses, etc. What helped to decrease the interference, was adding more metal to the ground of the circuit, and it worked well. This provided electrons, and with more electrons, everything seems to work much better.

#### broli

• Hero Member
• Posts: 2246
##### Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #52 on: November 28, 2018, 01:00:11 PM »
The more you think about it the easier the concept gets and it pretty much distills to the core essence of breaking symmetry, ie having the charge carriers move (much) faster in one portion of your closed loop than the other, that is all there is to it.

Perhaps as a reminder to some I would like to add that all the designs I shared and potential build plans fall under open source hardware license and any patent derived from these would be rendered void because of this.

In that regard, attached is another simple design with a single magnet. I currently have a huge 100mm diameter magnet, all I need is some graphene sheet to test this concept. But apparently laser induced graphene from Kapton is also a dirt cheap method to get this material.

#### Klausmastah

• Newbie
• Posts: 1
##### Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #53 on: June 04, 2019, 06:03:07 PM »
Hi all,
I assume this thread is discussing my MS thesis, available at https://skemman.is/bitstream/1946/29521/3/KOK_MagneticVectorPotential.pdf

Its good to know of others pondering these fundamental concepts.
Throughout the years, many have thought along these lines.

As pointed out in the top post of the thread,
equation 5.11 on page 51. expresses the convective derivative of the magnetic vector potential
in a set of terms, each relevant to a specific geometry.
I am writing a paper to illustrate these term better graphically.

Seeing that the main theme of this forum is the quest for over-unity,
we must keep in mind the validity of the second law of thermodynamics.
There is the loophole of population inversion, which remarkably might hold ground for nuclear spins.
The last chapter of the thesis covers this a little bit.

Our quest however is most likely that of transduction, converting one form of energy to electrical energy.
The sources could be ambient heat, nuclear spins, ELF signals,  the vacuum itself or another unknown phenomena.

It is easy to get lost in experimental setups and mathematics if the ground plan is unclear.
Setting out for a specific energy source might be a more fruitful way of exploration in this field.
But let us keep on searching and hopefully stumble upon a fresh way of transduction.

Warm regards from Iceland!
-Klaus

#### ramset

• Hero Member
• Posts: 7827
##### Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #54 on: July 09, 2019, 02:13:13 PM »
Just Bumping this Topic, I know a few open source fellows are preparing and     pondering methods to investigate .
As mentioned in this topic , TinselKoala had seen things which were very weird in well built versions and variants ]years ago].
nothing but gratitude for him sharing that here.
To Note member F6FLT is presently sharpening the tools and preparing some experiments
Smudge also has some simple idea which TinMan has agreed to attempt when he gets the time .
Here it seems the boundary between what is possible and what _may_ be possible can actually be experimented with on the "everymans" work bench, the well prepared "everyman" that is.
IMO doing real science.... peering into the "Whatifs"

A privilege these men are here .....

men Like broli and others ... a true gift !!
respectfully Chet K
PSand welcome to Klaus from this open source community  [sorry so late