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Author Topic: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator  (Read 1456 times)

Offline ayeaye

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Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #30 on: November 24, 2018, 05:40:39 PM »
Ok, i try to explain these things only by movement of charged particles. This looks like a different effect than induction. At first it looks like that it shouldn't do anything, just move electrons along the side (call it sidewise) of the rotating cylinder, parallel to its axis. But there is one more thing to consider, the electrons in the cylinder move pass the atom in the magnet. This means that they are not just moved sidewise, but just tilted to the side, when still moving forward. What that causes is that after passing the atom, the electrons in the cylinder will be longer affected by the repulsive force of the electron in the atom, than before passing the atom. That should mean that the summary force to the electron in the cylinder supposed to be in one direction. As this is a different effect than the induction, then there also should be no Lenz effect back. I don't know more about forces that there may be. You indeed found a puzzle where is the most difficult to see what happens.

I don't know what happens when the electrons are pushed to the edge of the cylinder. Maybe make this rotating thing a sphere instead of a cylinder, then maybe this tilting might be continuous. The electrons supposed to go then, through that sphere, somewhat like in a vortex.


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Offline broli

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Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #31 on: November 24, 2018, 06:37:18 PM »
Ok, i try to explain these things only by movement of charged particles. This looks like a different effect than induction. At first it looks like that it shouldn't do anything, just move electrons along the side (call it sidewise) of the rotating cylinder, parallel to its axis. But there is one more thing to consider, the electrons in the cylinder move pass the atom in the magnet. This means that they are not just moved sidewise, but just tilted to the side, when still moving forward. What that causes is that after passing the atom, the electrons in the cylinder will be longer affected by the repulsive force of the electron in the atom, than before passing the atom. That should mean that the summary force to the electron in the cylinder supposed to be in one direction. As this is a different effect than the induction, then there also should be no Lenz effect back. I don't know more about forces that there may be. You indeed found a puzzle where is the most difficult to see what happens.

I don't know what happens when the electrons are pushed to the edge of the cylinder. Maybe make this rotating thing a sphere instead of a cylinder, then maybe this tilting might be continuous. The electrons supposed to go then, through that sphere, somewhat like in a vortex.


It's about the change the charge particle sees in the A-field due to its own movement. Faraday's law of induction assumes that the charge particle is stationary while the A field is changing whereas the complete equation also considers the change of the A field due to the movement of the charged particle. We know this happens because when we move a coil to or from a magnet an EMF is induced. However this change in A-field can happen in all directions including longitudinal to the charge particle's movement  as you have in the previously shown setup.


I'm currently extending my simulation software to show the induced E field due to the rotation of charged particles around these type of magnets.

Offline ayeaye

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Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #32 on: November 24, 2018, 07:16:24 PM »
I think it's just said in the other words what i said. Because i believe that this is all only about movement of charged particles, in the atom and in the wire, cylinder or whatever. I think that there is really no magnetic field or any other special field, these are only emergent dynamic phenomena of the movement of charged particles and forces between them. Yes one thing coincides as you explain it or as i see it. It is indeed because of the movement of charged particles in the cylinder, without it there were no such effect. But i don't want to think only in the terms of magnetic fields, or other fields, without understanding what really happens. Like magnetic field, likely some time someone decided, we don't really understand what happens there, so let's call it magnetic field.

What i still cannot understand, it supposed to create opposite currents in both halves of the cylinder if the thing is completely symmetric, or not? How then can there be one current not zero, i still cannot quite comprehend it.

And then one heretic question, what if we don't rotate the cylinder, but let just a small current through it, might it then amplify the current? I don't know because i don't know everything that happens there, but as much i see it so far, i yet don't see why that cannot happen. Movement of charged particles, does it matter whether it's caused by rotation or by current? I'm sorry, that may well be naive, it is just as much as i can think by the limited way i see it so far.

There may be a caveat though, charged particles. In that there need to be many charged particles. In the wire there may not be many. Like i have this coil, a few turns, and a hard drive magnet on it, the one they say in Youtube to be overunity device. This is somewhat similar to Marinov, the magnet is oriented the same way at least. There is no voltage on it, there is 1 mV on me. But if there is a circuit, me, that coil, and the voltage meter, it measures 74 mV on me and the coil in series, and this is constant. Where does it come from, why does that coil with magnet increase voltage so much? I guess one possibility is, i am a great source of electrons, and when there are many electrons in the circuit, such things might generate current. So to warn you, don't expect much, unless you maybe include in the circuit something, that contains a lot of electrons.

« Last Edit: November 24, 2018, 09:35:17 PM by ayeaye »

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Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #32 on: November 24, 2018, 07:16:24 PM »
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Offline broli

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Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #33 on: November 24, 2018, 11:15:22 PM »
Well boys and girls. Perhaps for the first time in history here is the calculated induced E field caused by a rotating velocity field around a split face magnet. I must say that I have stared at this for hours and still can't get enough of it. More exploration to come but I bet this will keep the mind occupied for the meantime.


Notice the lorentz force in such uniform loop is 0 everywhere :) .

Offline broli

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Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #34 on: November 24, 2018, 11:42:47 PM »
Also might add that this explains and shows eddy currents quite nicely.

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Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #34 on: November 24, 2018, 11:42:47 PM »
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Offline broli

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Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #35 on: November 25, 2018, 12:05:18 AM »
And the double disc magnet version.

Offline F6FLT

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Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2018, 04:31:06 PM »
Thanks for the visualizations, Broli.

I ask the problem on a physics forum. Here is a proposed approximate solution of the torque we can expect.

To simplify, suppose that the variation of A is linear on the path and equal to ∆A on one side, -∆A on the other side.
∆S = π*R  (half-perimeter that is covered on each side)

Assume
I = Q/T        I current, T travel time of charges
v = π*R/T   v charges speed
v = I/Q * π*R

dA/dt ≅ v ∆A/∆S = I/Q * πR * (± ∆A/πR) = ± ∆A * I/Q

The force on the right:
F=Q*E = -Q * dA/dt = - Q * (+ ∆A * I/Q) = - ∆A * I = M*a  (right)

The force on the left:
F=Q*E = - Q * dA/dt = - Q * (- ∆A * I/Q) = + ∆A I = -M*a  (left)

It is thus found a torque of intensity: 4 * R * ∆A * I.

This torque depends on the intensity of the magnet (which gives A and ∆A), the radius of the ring, and the intensity of the current.

It's an approximation but it should give us the order of magnitude, provided that this torque which applies to the electrons is transferred to the ring.


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Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #36 on: November 25, 2018, 04:31:06 PM »
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Offline broli

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Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #37 on: November 26, 2018, 03:20:22 PM »
After seeing the simulation data my previously corrected version was wrong. After carefully analysing it intuitively the direction in Wesley's paper was in fact correct and is also showing in my simulator. However as Smudge points out this force should induce an EMF on the freely mobile electrons not a Torque. See below simulation and illustration.


This has a huge implication as we can have a stationary coil with many windings. And if we apply a current to it and bring it at the right location this current will get amplified due to the longitudinal E-field over the closed path Integral.

Offline broli

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Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2018, 03:59:09 PM »
This is the mind boggling setup that induces a DC emf in the direction of current flow in a coil which goes around the magnet in an arc and folds back the same path. This is all according to the change of magnetic vector potential experienced by the electron moving around in such wire.


Can we build it? The thing is due to the small EMF's (micro volts /turn) it will need a significant amount of turns. However if this is correct you only need an initial current source and then current would grow due to the EMF which could cause a chain effect because as the current grows the drift velocity increases, which in turn increases the E-field which in turn increases the current.

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Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #38 on: November 26, 2018, 03:59:09 PM »
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Offline Smudge

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Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #39 on: November 26, 2018, 04:22:12 PM »
I think you have to consider not only the change in the A field component along the semi-circles of wire around the magnets but also around the bends joining the two semi-circles.  As drift velocity is the same everywhere you find that the induction around those sharp bends completely nulls the overall induction.
Smudge

Offline broli

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Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2018, 04:51:42 PM »
I think you have to consider not only the change in the A field component along the semi-circles of wire around the magnets but also around the bends joining the two semi-circles.  As drift velocity is the same everywhere you find that the induction around those sharp bends completely nulls the overall induction.
Smudge


Smudge very good point indeed I have not considered that.


However if you consider this region and draw a small semi circle there and follow the change in A-Field around this path. From the charge's point of view the A-Field was at max and then starts decreasing as the charge moves along the path. When it exists it's at the A-Field's min (from its point of view). so A-field going from a max value to a min value is negative rate of change thus a positive E-field (E= MINUS dA/dt).


Or have I flopped somewhere?


EDIT: I guess I did flop. I was considering the wrong direction. Attached the correction. At Least the folded setup is indeed a no go as all the EMF gain is canceled out in that small u turn.

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Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #40 on: November 26, 2018, 04:51:42 PM »
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Offline ayeaye

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Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #41 on: November 26, 2018, 05:18:26 PM »
I made what i call wrapped magnet, on the figure below.

I took a hard drive magnet, wrapped it with insulating tape, then with aluminum foil, then again with insulating tape, to hold it tightly together.

Measured the current between both ends, it was zero. Measured the current through my body, holding the probes with both hands, the current was zero. Measured the current through my body and an aluminum foil in series, my body became a battery, the current was 0.07 uA. Measured the current through my body and the wrapped magnet in series, the current was 0.22 uA, almost stable.

Measured the current through the wrapped magnet and a big metal object in series, the current was zero. Made a circuit, a battery, a 5 k resistor, and wrapped magnet, the wrapped magnet generated no emf.

So how do you explain these results? My one guess is, my body is massive, and provides electrons, and the wrapped magnet really amplifies current. But this is only one guess. One may try with another objects that may supply electrons, such as ground.

My idea was, in that aluminum cylinder, the magnet creates vortex of electrons.


Offline F6FLT

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Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #42 on: November 26, 2018, 05:51:13 PM »
I've tried to measure a possible voltage difference between the two branches.
Each branch consists of 2 resistors of 120K in series, the two largest being placed in the area of the strongest vector potential gradient, the other two being used to balance the bridge.
The magnets are neodynium magnets from old SCSI hard disks.
The HP3468A multimeter allows stable measurements up to ten µV.
When the magnets are removed, or the poles are switched: no difference in voltage.
I have no explanation for this negative result, except that the effect, if any, is below 10µV in my configuration.

I took this picture before I realized that the magnets were not correctly positioned, but the same negative result after correction (90° rotation).

Offline broli

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Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #43 on: November 26, 2018, 06:26:09 PM »
Hi F6FLT


Thanks for the contribution. The problem with the solid state setup is that you are pretty much relaying on the drift velocity of a material which for copper can be a few mm/s. At this rate the rate of change of the potential vector is very low. Compared to a conventional generator where the magnetic potential is flipping intensity 100 times per second in front of a coil that has N turns. This is quite a big difference. The challenge is to find ways to amplify this small effect, if it's possible we would be sucking energy directly from permanent magnets and see if they truly are permanent  8) .


There are three solutions to amplify this.

1. Use a material that has a much higher drift velocity than copper, For instance the semi conductor Indium Antimonide can have an electron mobility 10000x higher than copper. This is also why almost every Hall sensor uses a semi conductor sample because the very high electron mobility amplifies the lorentz force considerably. This option is pretty expensive as you need to order a wafer and perhaps also laser cut it.


2. Using multiple turns somehow. So far this proves impossible as can be seen any "return" causes the oppesite effect.


3. Use mechanical motion to move the electrons at high speeds. This method is as shown on the very first post of this thread. The advantage is that this is very easy and much cheaper to test. Both rotational and linear variants can be build very similar to Smudge's conveyor belt idea.

Offline broli

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Re: A Treatise on the Magnetic Vector Potential and the Marinov Generator
« Reply #44 on: November 26, 2018, 07:28:01 PM »
Here are some other key points after playing with the simulation


1. there can be a gap between the magnets, this does not affect the intensity of the induced E-field that much
2. Disc must have a hole in it to prevent eddy currents as these induced E field are the cause of eddy currents to begin with
3. Brush points do not need to touch the outermost sides, they can be at the location where the ring and magnet's edge "intersect" as this gives the max possible E field

 

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