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Solid States Devices => solid state devices => Topic started by: F6FLT on November 10, 2018, 01:21:00 PM

Title: Siglent SDG2042x arbitrary function generator
Post by: F6FLT on November 10, 2018, 01:21:00 PM
Hi all

Almost every time electronic circuits are used, I see many of us who have designed a circuit specifically to generate a particular signal, such as pulses, sin, bursts...
I understand that for those who want to save money or who are not especially involved or interested in electronics in the long term.
For the others, investing in an arbitrary function generator is the perfect solution that will save a lot of time, while improving accuracy, versatility and reliability.

My goal here is only to provide a feedback on my equipment and a highly economical tip...

In some Chinese brands, the devices are part of series and all those of the same series are materially the same. Only the firmware limits the possibilities of the devices as you go down in the series.
On the EEV blog, I found a way to change the firmware of the Siglent 2042X generator. That's why I bought it recently:
https://www.siglent.eu/sdg2042x.html

It is the first of the 2000 series, its maximum frequency is 40 MHz. But the top of the series is the SDG2122X which goes up to 120 MHz:
https://www.siglent.eu/sdg2122x.html

I applied the EEV blog firmware to my SDG2042x 40 MHz and got a SDG2122X 120 MHz (see pictures)! Only the serial number was lost. We can put the old one back but I didn't succeed, my skill in linux is limited and anyway there is no technical interest in doing so.

My tests confirmed the 120 MHz operation, there is no attenuation at this frequency (one can even increase to 145 MHz but with level reduction, the theoretical maximum frequency being 150 MHz due to the DAC converter at 300 MSa/s (it is specified "1.2 GSa/s" but it is at the price of 2 additional bits added to the real 14 bits DAC to smooth transitions).

Connected to a PC via ethernet or USB, any waveform can be supplied to the device. We use dedicated software to generate waveforms and transfer them, but we can also generate them from an Excel file, that is what I did.
Thus, for example, I was able to generate the shortest possible pulse for this device, with an arbitrary duty cycle (which is not possible if only the standard "pulse" signal of the generator is used).
I also used it to produce a multi-sin signal to generate several carrier frequencies and transmit simultaneously in LW, MW, SW radio bands and also in FM on the second channel of the Siglent, all carriers being modulated from an external input.

This kind of device is really all we need in electronics to experiment! Note that I am in no way related to this brand, I have no personal interest in advertising it. I'm just satisfied (it's rare enough to report it  ;) ).
Title: Re: Siglent SDG2042x arbitrary function generator
Post by: ayeaye on November 10, 2018, 02:26:15 PM
Yes that's right, generating signal is always a problem, so signal generator were a bless. Siglent is also the cheapest reasonable tools one can get in europe at least. Too expensive and only a dream for me though.

What you used it for though, finding a resonant frequency. I noticed that is is no problem to see the resonant frequency even when using only square pulses, as the oscillation on the resonant frequency shows just everywhere. Why i found the resonant frequency important, was to choose the right length of the pulse, so it charges the capacitance during the pulse, and discharges during the back-emf. see my ngspice simulation  https://overunity.com/17861/bifilar-pancake-coil-overunity-experiment/210/ (https://overunity.com/17861/bifilar-pancake-coil-overunity-experiment/210/) .

Title: Re: Siglent SDG2042x arbitrary function generator
Post by: Turbo on November 10, 2018, 02:53:43 PM
You can just program a $4 micro to do all of that and more.
Embedded is the right word.
Title: Re: Siglent SDG2042x arbitrary function generator
Post by: F6FLT on November 10, 2018, 03:12:14 PM
What do you mean by "all of that and more"?
Title: Re: Siglent SDG2042x arbitrary function generator
Post by: ayeaye on November 10, 2018, 03:15:48 PM
You can just program a $4 micro to do all of that and more.

For signal generation? An arm microcontroller can do that, but it's a hell of difficult to program it. And arduino, one needs to make a dac for it, 16 resistors? Just whatever way, too much work to do just to generate a signal, when a function generator can do all that out of the box.

My solution so far though is to only use positive square pulses, which i generate with arduino, and a transistor, looks like enough for everything by now. But this of course is because of my poverty, if i had plenty of money, i undoubtedly bought a signal generator.

Title: Re: Siglent SDG2042x arbitrary function generator
Post by: F6FLT on November 10, 2018, 04:38:16 PM
For signal generation? An arm microcontroller can do that, but it's a hell of difficult to program it. And arduino, one needs to make a dac for it, 16 resistors?
and your frequency would be very limited. An Arduino cannot output data at frequencies of MHz. I'm not even sure it can be used for full-band audio frequencies. In this case a PC sound card would be a better choice.
Title: Re: Siglent SDG2042x arbitrary function generator
Post by: ayeaye on November 10, 2018, 05:04:51 PM
and your frequency would be very limited. An Arduino cannot output data at frequencies of MHz. I'm not even sure it can be used for full-band audio frequencies. In this case a PC sound card would be a better choice.

No Arduino is 16 MHz, it can sure generate a few MHz. Audio it can even generate PWM, but for higher frequencies for other signal than square one needs to make a DAC. 4 bits using 8 resistors would be quite doable, yet its still quite a work. And one needs then a fake ground for signal to be negative also, as on the figure above. PC sound card is only for audio frequencies.

This is the Tektronix tutorial how to make a simple DAC for a microcontroller, i think i cannot explain it better  https://www.tek.com/blog/tutorial-digital-analog-conversion-r-2r-dac (https://www.tek.com/blog/tutorial-digital-analog-conversion-r-2r-dac) . Plus a small filter perhaps that would at least smooth the step. It would be usable for the purposes, but quite a work. I think one should make the whole thing as a separate circuit board, as making it on the breadboard each time would be too much nuisance.

Title: Re: Siglent SDG2042x arbitrary function generator
Post by: F6FLT on November 10, 2018, 07:11:34 PM
No Arduino is 16 MHz, it can sure generate a few MHz. ...
You are confusing processor clock and output data rate. And for arbitrary signals including sin, you have to multiply the rate by the number of desired points per period.
Title: Re: Siglent SDG2042x arbitrary function generator
Post by: ayeaye on November 10, 2018, 07:33:02 PM
You are confusing processor clock and output data rate. And for arbitrary signals including sin, you have to multiply the rate by the number of desired points per period.

No i'm not confusing anything. My Arduino signal generator can output 8 MHz, see  https://overunity.com/16942/arduino-signal-generator/ (https://overunity.com/16942/arduino-signal-generator/) . For signals like sine, one has to take a value from a table. Yes when there are say 16 values for 4 bit output, with instructions of reading the table, then maybe a few hundred kHz is possible, i don't know i have not tried. Certainly much more than the sound frequency. But of course it's quite a lot of work, and as the result it's not such a good device.

Title: Re: Siglent SDG2042x arbitrary function generator
Post by: Turbo on November 11, 2018, 04:01:26 PM
What do you mean by "all of that and more"?

Exactly what it  I puts measure calculate adjust  IO not just a waeform
Title: Re: Siglent SDG2042x arbitrary function generator
Post by: F6FLT on November 11, 2018, 04:11:55 PM
Exactly what it  I puts measure calculate adjust  IO not just a waeform
A waveform is just the variation over time of a certain quantity like voltage, current or anything else. When it comes from an arbitrary function generator, it's voltage. If you didn't talk about that, you're out of topic (see subject title).
Title: Re: Siglent SDG2042x arbitrary function generator
Post by: ayeaye on November 14, 2018, 07:07:43 PM
F6FLT, your Siglent oscilloscope and Siglent function generator are absolutely great, great tools.

Title: Re: Siglent SDG2042x arbitrary function generator
Post by: Turbo on November 15, 2018, 08:53:10 AM
A waveform is just the variation over time of a certain quantity like voltage, current or anything else. When it comes from an arbitrary function generator, it's voltage. If you didn't talk about that, you're out of topic (see subject title).

You don't even understand what it means.
It means a gated feedback loop.
That can be used for example in Nuclear Magnetic Resonance.
Try doing that with this useless signal generator.

Still at the "I still need this and that type of equipment" stage.
I'd say your about half way through.
Keep going you will eventually get into programming and realize that all these tools are useless because you can do anything and more in code.
Title: Re: Siglent SDG2042x arbitrary function generator
Post by: activ25 on November 15, 2018, 11:10:02 PM
@F6FLT: I'm agree with you, it is a good investment. Have you a link for the firmware ?
Title: Re: Siglent SDG2042x arbitrary function generator
Post by: F6FLT on November 16, 2018, 03:58:37 PM
You don't even understand what it means.
It means a gated feedback loop.
That can be used for example in Nuclear Magnetic Resonance.
Try doing that with this useless signal generator.

Still at the "I still need this and that type of equipment" stage.
I'd say your about half way through.
Keep going you will eventually get into programming and realize that all these tools are useless because you can do anything and more in code.
Next time I need useless advice, I'll know I can count on you. ::)

Title: Re: Siglent SDG2042x arbitrary function generator
Post by: F6FLT on November 16, 2018, 03:58:59 PM
@F6FLT: I'm agree with you, it is a good investment. Have you a link for the firmware ?

The firmware I installed is SDG2000_eevblog_23R7.ads. I don't know if there is an update since this time. It is available in a zip file, in reply #846 here (you will need an account and be logged to download):
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-siglent-sdg2042x-thread/825/

You must first update the Siglent with this software but it's not enough. You have then to delete the licence information. Only this alternative firmware allows telnet connection to do it.

I respect the author of the firmware who didn't provide the password but said it is easy to find. Yes, it's right, I guessed it. Remember your are on the "eevblog" site  :D.

Then see the "Guide for Dummies" in reply #353 here:
https://www.eevblog.com/forum/testgear/the-siglent-sdg2042x-thread/350/

You will have to connect a PC to the Siglent via ethernet (not USB) and execute some telnet line commands (Under Windows I used "putty" utility).

Title: Re: Siglent SDG2042x arbitrary function generator
Post by: activ25 on November 16, 2018, 04:30:52 PM
Thanks, I will try, not these days because I can't. In one forum, a guy said the signal above 100 MHz has a distorsion so I don't think it is the same hardware but it could help to have more than 40 Mhz. Strange, that Siglent limits their devices.
Title: Re: Siglent SDG2042x arbitrary function generator
Post by: F6FLT on November 16, 2018, 07:41:02 PM

I didn't notice distorsion above 100 MHz up to 120 MHz. It's possible to exceed 120 Mhz by providing a sin(k*x) function as arbitrary waveform, with k=10 in practice but there is aliasing: we get a superposition of F and 150-F (for example 130 + 20 MHz), so in this case the signal is distorted but we are out of the specifications.
A possible reason that Siglent limits their devices (and possibly organize leaks for the hackers) is to create buzz from the (not rich) enthusiasts while the big companies pay the right price ?