Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Mechanical free energy devices => mechanic => Topic started by: hartiberlin on April 02, 2005, 06:55:21 PM

Title: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: hartiberlin on April 02, 2005, 06:55:21 PM
Hi All,
check out the latest pages abour the Reidar Finsrud machine at:

http://www.reidar-finsrud.com/sider/mobile/mobile.html

I know several people, who have visited him and have seen
and video taped his device.

It runs for about a month, until the glue is dried out,
that holds the permanent magnets inside the footer.

If he uses better glue, it will run longer.
This I was told about 5 years ago. Maybe he already has now better
viscosity glue for the magnets.

It seems to be some kind of chaotic vibration effect together
with the magnet attraction setup and removeable attraction arms, what keeps
this ball rolling.

This is probably also a case, where the magnets get a bit colder and
it extracts the energy from the surrounding heat energy of the magnets.

If you ever go to Norway, please visit him and post a few new pictures !
Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: emcsquaredmike on April 03, 2005, 11:40:41 AM
  The perpetual motion machine looks like it works!  Would like to get more info on device. Thanks!
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: Gumboots2u on April 14, 2005, 07:17:57 PM
  Hi Stefan

  I emailled Reidar and got a reply as to permission to replicate . He said OK but to make sure it was regarded as art and not to
 profit from it. As well as making sure he was recogniized for his work. Alll of which of I had no problem dealing with.

    This was a couple of months. ago and I am in the process of clearing off a clockwork art piece for a customer ,, then I will
 
   proceed with the replication attempt.

      Truly Mac.
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: hartiberlin on April 14, 2005, 07:29:20 PM
Okay Mac, let us know of your progress to rebuild it.
It seems there must be some "jittering" of the unit to get the magnetic action
in the footer to tilt back and forth permanently.
Will be probably pretty hard to setup all the motions in sync !
That is why he needed 12 Years to have all parameters lined up right.
Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: Gumboots2u on April 16, 2005, 04:31:50 PM
  I am assuming that it will be a major challenge to get going correctly. I am most interested in a direct hands on observation of
 his chaos principle.   A few years ago the gentleman who did the write up and pictures on Don Adsitts site was here in Ontario.
   He was here to see David Hamiel  and I was very fortunate that he also took some time and stayed with us . His visit to
 Reidar's place was one of the topics we covered.   Johns conversation with Reidar highlighted the fact that the machine ran more
 on probablility than on energy{ sort of  like Douglas Adams probability drive } , which translated lightly means that the chance of it
 coming to rest relied on the probability that everthing synchroniised to slow it down. It operated more on instability than a source
  of energy.   I'll be starting with the chaos penduluum  first, then branching out. It may not look like his machine when it is done
 because my focus is on the chaos, and further if it does end up looking like his machine then it will be because the principle led
 me in that direction.   Lets see what happens.   

     Truly Mac.
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: freeenergyman2005 on April 27, 2005, 06:21:41 AM
Where can I see a photo or video of this device? May I have permision to replicate it?
I've been working on Don Adsitt's magnetic ramping design for some time, but have not been able to get it to complete a cycle more than a few times before ot quits. :-\
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: hartiberlin on April 27, 2005, 04:47:20 PM
Freeenergyman,
youi can see pics and a movie here:

http://www.reidar-finsrud.com/sider/mobile/foto.html

Please report about your magnet ramp.

How many times did you get to loop it ?
Why not more ?
Do the magnets stick to the track ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: freeenergyman2005 on April 28, 2005, 06:05:17 AM
Stefan, the finsrud machine looks fairly complicated; very polished. Far more so than my lowly magnetic ramp motor. I drew from the concepts posted on Don Adsitt's site 'The very last page of the internet', which, incidently, was not accessible because the domain name had expired as of yesterday; I hope this isn't permanent. I also used the concepts from freeenergyforever.com which is Dennis Lee's site, on his 'Case for Free Energy' video about 9.5 minutes into the tape. According to Don Adsitt, Dennis Lee is a scammer. Nevertheless, I found the concept of magnetic ramping to be valid in both cases on both sites.

I used a pair of 360 degree helixes for my ramps, which I spaced apart in mirror image fashon. The ceramic block magnets are attached end to end, North facing up on the lower track and oppposite on the down facing track. The effect is that the magnetic field increases as an armature, which has four arms spaced at 90 degrees, rotates from the widest point to the most narrow point. Indeed the magnets, opposite poles facing the tracks, on top and bottom of the brass inertial mass are readily 'sucked' into the shaped magnetic field. The problem is that once the armature reaches the most narrow point of the stator it comes to rest after only a couple of rotations due to the intense attraction. By using the rollercoaster drop demonstrated by Adsitt, there is no abrupt end, and there is in fact a tapering off, though, alas, not an elimination, of the strong attraction associated with the end of the magnetic track. Having said that, I've only gotten four or five rotations after a slight nudge. Still I'm encouraged that this configuration might be optimized, despite the crude construction; there is significant friction loss, to be sure. To watch it, it obviously so much wants to work, yet it eventually, grudgingly, stops working.

Howard Malone
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: Kysmett on April 29, 2005, 03:03:06 AM
Is there any formula that dictates the strength of the attraction to the 'sticking' point, as a function of the strength of attraction in the gate.  I guess what I mean to ask was this: first, were the number of gates the same as, or an even factor/multiple of, the number of armatures?  if not, then how many armatures that are influenced to move does it take to overcome one that is influenced not to move.  I am thinking more and more lately of phi numbers....(regretably becoming more evident in my posting, for which I appologize).  I plan to build a simmilar apparatus in the next eight weeks, and I think that I will use eight arms and 13 gates, this will ensure that there will always be 7 bodies with a positive force for every one passing through the sticking point.

Most of the materials I do not have yet, so any advice or knowledge to the contrary of the above would be appreciated before I make the investment, modest though it might be. 

Thanks
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: freeenergyman2005 on April 29, 2005, 06:25:16 AM
Hello, Kysmett.

You're talking a little over my head, but I get the gist of your message. I used four armatures @ 90 degrees separature in my machine and, as I mentioned, had my ramps facing each other and arranged in mirror image. So, I guess, if I understand your meaning, I have one gate with the ramps being three inches apart at the gap, opening to five inches at the begining of the run. There is a one inch rise over 4' and 9 1/2', as my stator is 18" in diameter. It appears there isn't enough force of attraction through the run to force the armature through the gap without losing a little momentum as each armature passes. I have a total of 52 ceramic block magnets, purchased at Ace Hardware for $0.88 each, including eight in the armatures. Therefore, I have three inertial masses with positive force for the one passing through the gap, or gate.

I'm open to suggestions.

Howard

Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: Kysmett on April 29, 2005, 02:56:08 PM
I wonder.  How did you employ the magnets in the armature?  What was your pole orientation.  Is there anyway you could post a sketch of your configuration? 
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: freeenergyman2005 on April 30, 2005, 05:32:05 AM
Picture a vertical axle supported by ball bearings at each end with a hub in the center from which four arms, each supporting a mass (brass weight with a ceramic block magnet mounted top and bottom) perpendicular to the axel and spaced 90 degrees to each other. The ramps are parallel and horizontal to each other and, as I mentioned, are off set split rings forming 360 degree helixes in mirror image. The armatures move on a horizontal plane and parallel to the plane of the ramps.

The easiest way to view the configuration I used is to visit freeenergyforever.com and open the Real Player entitled 'The case for free energy' and scroll nine and a half minutes into the video.

A close friend and engineer, Bob Bailey, told me the reason Dennis Lee stoped the armature after one revolution was not, as I had thought, to prevent me from seeing continuous motion, but rather to prevent me from seeing that it didn't have sustained motion. He was right. After every variation I've tried it simply will not maintain revolutions.

Consequently, I've dismantled the machine to use the magnets in a different configuration. Don Adsitt's site, http://www.theverylastpageoftheinternet.com/menu/adsitt.htm has hidden nothing in his videos. He succinctly demonstrates the method of closing the loop through the use of stepped ramping with a free rolling magnet over a track that is contoured to the height of the magnets; very simple and easy to build. I suppose you might say it is a variation of the SMOT device.

I had thought I would use my rotor/stator unit to generate electricity by placing an iron core coil inline to the motion of the armature. Instead, I will use the motion of a free rolling magnetic cylinder over a circular track to induce current in an inline coil; much more simple and virtually without friction loss.

Howard
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: vectortan on April 30, 2005, 08:06:43 PM
Quick thought, magnetic ramps are great and all, but to enter or exit a ramp (depending on which poles you use) any energy gained is lost. If you gain 4MPH through the ramp 4MPH will be lost entering or exiting the ramp for each and every arm you use. I would think that using an electromagnet for the entry or exit (again depending on pole orientation) to pulse so you don't lose all your inertia you gained may help solve your problem.

Furthermore, I'm thinking a set of capacitors and diodes could pass that electromagnetism onto another electromagnet for a different arm on its own ramp which would need to be timed properly, and so on until a full circle is complete (which would require a lot of arms and ramps - electricity flows at he speed of light).

Only problem with timing it for it's 'sweet spot' is it would have a difficult time working properly while it's speeding up. The triggers would need to move further away from the electromagnet as the armature speeded up, but I think the process would function properly if there is little or no variation on speed.

Does this make sense to anyone?
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: freeenergyman2005 on May 02, 2005, 06:54:01 AM
Well, I'm not sure I want to start playing with electromagnets and triggers. From what I've seen of the last experiments posted, from which I posted the URL, of the Adsitt ramp the solution is purely magnetic attraction and mechanics. I was wrong, though, about virtually no friction loss; it does exist. However, the force of magnetic attraction is so strong as to accelerate despite such losses.

I am no inventor. On the other hand, I'm not too bad a tinkerer, and I like stuff I can replicate from materials available at the hardware store. Below is the URL of the stepped ramp.  The travel is from left to right. I hope it will come up for you, as I don't know how to post it otherwise. It takes Gorilla Glue to set and hold the magnets once they are stacked in close proximity like this. The videos show a magnetic button cylinder traversing a track configuration of mutiple steps, completing a circle and gaining height. I certainly don't see why it couldn't be joined as is end to end and keep running.

http://www.theverylastpageoftheinternet.com/magneticExp/adsitt/photos/topview.jpg

Howard
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: vectortan on May 05, 2005, 04:34:21 AM
I watched most of the videos from the URL you posted. It is hard to see, but the reason it can't be joined end to end is because while the cylinder magnets are 'being pulled' along the track, it is moving closer to the magnets underneath the plexiglass and you can only get so close before the magnets would be touching the underside of the plexiglass. The one video that irritated me the most was the half circle one with the pathetic excuse that they didn't have a full size sheet available to use for the experiment, when the actual reason was they did use a full circle one and there was no way they could get it to work. I watched very closely and replayed several times the 'break away' video, where it went along the track then disconnected and rolled off the end and noticed that it was actually lower in height when it was free from the magnet track. Nothing special there. No extra energy can gained from this. Even if you did get the perfect setup with no friction and it was able to spin round and round, you wouldn't be able to get any energy out of it because it would be expending ALL of it's energy just to keep going and there would be nothing special about that because an object in motion will continue to stay in motion until an outside force interferes with it. I do admit it is an impressive trick that is done with magnets, but nothing more than that.

I mean, I can lift a 1lb. rock 5 feet off the ground and let it go, it will move downward and actually accelerate until it hits the ground. Then I can take a 1lb. piece of rubber and drop that 5 feet from the ground, when that one hits the ground it will move away from the ground and fall again. Does that mean that the peice of rubber expends less energy than the rock? More? The correct answer is it expends the same amount of energy.

What I'm trying to say is that it is IMPOSSIBLE to get more energy out of a system than what you put in. However, Bedinni claims that he is utilizing an unknown form of fuel (Aether energy) for his device which from simple observation and measurements would look like overunity, the only thing bothering me about his device is that he won't let an outside party investigate it, just like that Gray guy, and that smells like fraud to me.

Finsrud, on the other hand has, and I have the utmost respect for him that he did not claim to acheive PM or overunity (he referred to it as a moving sculpture; art) and DID allow an outside party investigate it and they did find that it is expending a minute amount of energy and would eventually stop on it's own (they actually calculated the exact amount of energy it was expending to several decimal places) and everyone was and still is happy. But if you where to place it in a perfect vaccuum and put the ball on a frictionless track and replaced the bearings with magnetic bearings, it would keep going, but so would a toy top.

So am I saying we should give up on attempting to acheive overunity? No, because someone could mess up in their experiment and stumble upon a new form of energy that is abundant and exchangeable into electricity... plus it's fun to try too.

What am I working on? I am kind of in the wrong area here I see, but I am in the process of building the Bedinni motor/generator and have a few ideas to change on it that I havent heard anyone mention about yet. After reading about Tesla, I believe he figured out a way to convert Aether energy into electricty in mass quantities and was intending to build a power station for the entire world out of a warehouse until he was 'persuaded' to stop, so I do believe there is another form of energy out there that no one has been able to undeniably prove of it's existence yet, yeah, kinda like God.

If I unlock the secret and do find a way to acheive 'free energy' the first thing I will do is spread the designs to build it all over the internet before I do anything else because I don't think the oil barons and those with high stakes in electricity production will idly stand by and let me or anyone profit on something that groundbreaking, causing their stocks to drop like that 1lb rock. We do need something like that because we are all viscously addicted to electricity and the resources to make it in mass quantities are limited and greed is on the rise, plus I can't take it with me!

To those of you attempting it, I wish you the best of luck, I hope you mess up and in the process accidently discover the incredible!

Vectortan
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: sypherios on November 08, 2005, 03:46:52 PM
I saw the Finsrud machine on TV last night. I was quite suprised..! The machine was filmed for 3 days and it operated continuisly. It is said to have a efficiency of 90%.WOW.
who needs OU? 90% is great.


  Sincerly Sypherios
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: hartiberlin on November 09, 2005, 08:49:03 PM
On which channel was it in which country ?
Did you record it onto Tape ( DVD) ?

If yes, could you please post a video of it ?
Well, 90 % is wrong, what should be the input ???
Just the kick, when it is started ?
This machine has  a few 1000 % efficiency , not 90 %.

Thanks.
Regards, Stefan.
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: sypherios on November 19, 2005, 12:17:07 AM
I saw it in Canada I do have it on my Personal video recorder. I dont kno how to make it into a comp vid yet. But for you Stephan I will try.

Sincerly Sypherios
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: EDCat on March 29, 2006, 05:38:20 PM
To answer the question of how does it work, I can see similarities between Finsruds' device and some of the scupture done by George Rickey, an American Kinetic artist just recently passed away.

Rickey's principles of motion in his self moving scuptures relies on the action of compound pendulums, and I think that Finsrud has coupled this motion with the activity of what is termed a "Schulyer Pendulum".

A Schulyer pendulum is a pendulum whose period corresponds to a length that equals the diameter of the Earth. They are created by precisely balancing weights on a vertical bar.

Great idea for artwork, but not a practical source of energy!
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: NerzhDishual on June 07, 2006, 01:23:57 AM
Bonsoir

I have a Norvegian K7 vid. about Reidar Finsrud.
This guy is a  total  genius (while not  claiming being so).

Please stop  thinking of 90% or  90,9  or 99,9 or  99.999 and so on... efficiency.
That is fearful skeptical gobbledegooks.

Harti_Berlin is right.
The efficiency of this device is far more than 100%.

Best
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: hartiberlin on June 09, 2006, 02:02:17 AM
I saw it in Canada I do have it on my Personal video recorder. I dont kno how to make it into a comp vid yet. But for you Stephan I will try.

Sincerly Sypherios

Please try it and post it over here !
many thanks.
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: Dingus Mungus on September 26, 2006, 07:14:29 PM

I have viewed the video and looked at the pictures and I believe I know why this device really works.
 ;D

Read these links for the secret...
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Electric_Bell (http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Oxford_Electric_Bell)
http://www.physics.ox.ac.uk/history.asp?page=Exhibit1 (http://www.physics.ox.ac.uk/history.asp?page=Exhibit1)
http://www.sparkmuseum.com/PERPMO.HTM (http://www.sparkmuseum.com/PERPMO.HTM)

Note that the track and ball insulated from the center cylinder assembly and the placement of charging stations along the path. The balls momentum over assisting arms powers the pendulums (requires very little power if timed correctly) and the high voltage charging maintains the balls momentum. The magnets only helps to pull the ball over the pendulum assisting arms and the balls momentum and static charge help it escape the magnets sticky point. While the magent and pendulum sets are essentially useless (just for show), its still a captivating feat of engineering.

Even if this is not how the device works this is a way of creating a similar experiment and generate the same results. Altho if I was planning to experiment with this I would scrap the expensive magnets and over complicated pendulum sets and instead just allow the ring track a loose 2?-4? wobble. You should be able to see the same behavior from the steel ball on a ring track with a multi dry pile configuration. happy experimenting!

Hope this post was helpful... I dont mean to totally discredit this device too quickly, but I do know its possible to replicate with adaptations of very old technology.

While it does appear to be a very clever trick done with electrostatic it is still rather remarkable piece of engineering to see operate.
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: alan2here on November 04, 2006, 01:08:15 PM
http://www.steorn.net/forum/comments.php?DiscussionID=13991&page=1#Item_0
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: FreeEnergy on November 13, 2006, 10:41:20 AM
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=553061720631716456

i think it is just a clever way to get the ball passed the sticky spot/point. see the horse shoe magnet? as the ball gets attracted to the steel spring rod between the track it moves closer to the horse shoe and moves down becuase of the ball's weight and at the same time removes the spicky spot/point and the balls runs right through passed the shoe with momentum. just my opinion, what do you guys think?
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: Dingus Mungus on November 22, 2006, 08:29:08 AM
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-3078131163857744253

40 min video of device operation. Close examination of components.

@Free
The red horseshoes are magnets, but the red cylinders attached to the top assembly are negative static
collectors grounded to the dry pile in the tall base. See more about my theory of operation a few posts up.

@Everyone
To try and replicate the effects cheaply you need a power supply that can put out 3000+V @ .000001 mA.
Any voltage 4 digits or more will work but you can only get a few nanoampere from most known drycells.
Simply positively charge a metal track with the positive and then ground the metal collector. I also know of
a way to build homemade drycells, if anyone is interested in replicating a 1000V+ solid state battery.

This same form of static E propultion was used in the 1800's to build *perpetual* pendulums. *300+ years*
The added static energy helps maintain the charged objects entrance velocity, but the attraction to each
collector stops the instant the electrons escape in your grounded collector. Interesting stuff but not as much potential as the SMOT or TOMI devices.

~Dingus
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: Gumboots2u on November 22, 2006, 05:14:28 PM
 Dingus heres one of my origninal posts short context.

 " A few years ago the gentleman who did the write up and pictures on Don Adsitts site was here in Ontario.
   He was here to see David Hamiel  and I was very fortunate that he also took some time and stayed with us . His visit to
 Reidar's place was one of the topics we covered.   Johns conversation with Reidar highlighted the fact that the machine ran more
 on probablility than on energy{ sort of  like Douglas Adams probability drive } , which translated lightly means that the chance of it
 coming to rest relied on the probability that everthing synchroniised to slow it down. It operated more on instability than a source
  of energy.   I'll be starting with the chaos penduluum  first, then branching out. It may not look like his machine when it is done
 because my focus is on the chaos, and further if it does end up looking like his machine then it will be because the principle led
 me in that direction."


   The probability is the part that Reidar emphasized when speaking with John Paisley. It is an easily missed
 concept because physics trys not to emphasize chaos,,, focussing more on finding order. See where this
 leads you. I doubt static electricity would move the ball, and yes I have worked on static electricity motors.
  You can't have any friction as well as watching out for moisture and grounding. Seeing as all of his machine
   is grounded to itself then not much chance of static working.
 
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: hartiberlin on December 05, 2006, 11:50:02 PM
Here is a nice toy, that you can use to study the Finsrud device.

The placed magnets at the bottom are placed this way, that
the pendulum almost never comes to a stop.

Try it yourself, maybe you will find a setup, so the,
pendulum never stops:


Finsrud Pendulum toy, click here (http://www.amazon.com/gp/product/B00021UJZI/104-8905429-5264709?ie=UTF8&tag=overunity-20&linkCode=xm2&creativeASIN=B00021UJZI)
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: allcanadian on December 07, 2006, 08:42:32 AM
I was looking at the finsrud website and it's interesting that he uses pendulums, levers, magnets and an oscillating ramp, and everyone seems to dismiss one part or another as unimportant. What if there not? I think he's using a cascade type reaction- as finsrud say's -in order for the machine to stop all of the systems must align. That is the pendulum, the ramp and the magnet system must all be at one point for the system to stop- Why not analyse a system based on what would make it stop rather than what makes it go? I see a huge difference in this perspective, only because no one seems to consider it.
Here's a thought- if each system (pendulum,ramp,magnet)would get stuck once every 10 cycles, but there are three systems out of phase then the odds of of stopping go way down. The only determining factor is do you generate enough energy to reset the system when it sticks?.
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: dean_mcgowan on December 07, 2006, 09:13:11 AM
I am all with you on that mark AC .. equilibrium is our enemy.

Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: Dingus Mungus on December 07, 2006, 11:09:56 AM
I would say a cylinder magnet above a metal ball rolling on a non restrictive track would stop the machine over time since it would clearly rob the ball of velocity or simply pick it up right off the track. Please test this if you have the means to replicate or if anyone could suggest what kind of magnet it is and the radius of the ball I will buy parts and test it. I would also assume that the arms that attach the penulum and horse shoe magnet to the lever extended through the track would also slow the ball as the pendulum lost energy to gravity. The ball would then have to supply energy to the pendulums to keep them swinging. The horse shoe magnet if in proximity to the ball would attract it and pull the ball over the arm that moves the magnet and pendulum, but its not just moving the magnet its pulling it away from a object its attracted to thus nulling any momentum it added to the ball by adding resistance to the assisting arm. Basicly each component would seem to be a loss. This is why I find this device so interesting. If its not static propultion than I can oly assume the track has a tiny ammount of give and the pendulums keep a cycle that causes the track to have a rotating low point determined by the location of the ball. Hmmmmmmmmmmmmmmm.....

I brb...
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: Dingus Mungus on December 07, 2006, 11:32:52 AM
Another idea of how it could work...
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: Dingus Mungus on December 07, 2006, 11:36:14 AM
OOOOoooops!

Pendulums on wrong axis...
I'm too tired to fix tonight but I hope you guys get the idea.
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: Dingus Mungus on December 08, 2006, 10:36:27 AM
ok fixed it guys!

The idea is:
If the outer track that the ball rolls on has a tiny bit wiggle to it so it can lean the pendulums can keep the ball always rolling down hill. The ball rolling down hill gathers momentum and it uses this extra energy to push the pendulum to its starting drop point. What do you guys think? Does this idea of mine hold more water then the electro static propulsion concept?
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: FreeEnergy on December 08, 2006, 10:53:01 AM
i see. very nice. makes sense to me!
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: dean_mcgowan on December 08, 2006, 12:50:00 PM
can i put my 2 cents worth in here ..

gulp .. here goes ..

no fancy smancy science here ,,,

if there is one locked location in the system of a device being promoted, then that is where the focus for where equilibrium will begin to manifest itself .. its very simple and you can analyse any system on this simple observational criterium.

Ask yourselves this .. what is a river.

How do i make a river .. (it is not perpetual motion but it certainly makes the potential for a lot of energy)

Sorry .. its friday and i have had a few good reds and not too clear of mind here but thought i might throw it out there,,,

Burpp .. love you all .. be good to each other and the ones you love

:D


Dean
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: Dingus Mungus on December 08, 2006, 01:08:18 PM
Dean I like your posts...
You're analytical and you're not a sheep by any standard.

Don't mind the trash talkers in the thread of TPU doom, but I just wanted to make it clear to you that I think we've lost enough useful members to that thread already.

Don't ever change,
~Dingus
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: Alfang on December 18, 2006, 05:37:52 AM
Vectortan I agree with you. In short, without switching a Perm magent on/off by some easy means, Or in other words, a way to controll a magnetic field, without outside power input, You will never gain unity.
I consider magenetism and gravity the same for practicle purposes. And without gaining something free in the process, input will never be less than or equall to output.
My opinion is, set aside gravity and magnetic powered devices, without some mechanical switch to operate a magnet, you are chasing tails.

On a positive note, rather than create the magnetic or grivity device, create a device that controlls or changes a magnetic field...the device must change a magnetic field with no friction ,no power( very minimal power), and or verry little mechanical energy required.
Do this and you change the world, and all these magnetic and gravity devices will work.
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: lltfdaniel1 on December 18, 2006, 07:07:51 AM
Heres my input on this,

This , has all the same magnet sizes, since i have read about ''MAGNET'' Motors not haveing the same sizes or strengths,

well that toy but some reason can't post the link, it has magnets all the same sizes,yet you talk about it slowing down!

Have you attempted a smaller/big magnet approach like with the magnet motors, yet this is a different design but the way it is, the same with magnet motors with round backbones.

Prehaps smaller flux, since the magnets look spaced out,and those are points where it slows down.

And a river and weather system is perpetual motion well to put it in this lauguage all though it is messed up by global warming.

Heres a nother one, wtf makes the planet keep spinning, can you tell me this, if there was a way to understand, how the planet spins, then that would be used as a magnet motor.

And if it is under-unity,then why has the universe been around for so long?
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: composer on January 05, 2007, 08:57:11 PM
http://www.progettomeg.it/finsrud_progettomeg.htm
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: cwstang on January 08, 2007, 04:23:25 AM
Looks to me to be more like a fancy "grandfathers clock".  Instead of moving the hands of the clock, it's moving a ball using a pendulum effect, hence why it eventually runs down.
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: Low-Q on February 11, 2007, 08:56:38 PM
I also believe it's a kind of a clock. All three pendulums are excited by the steel ball, and all pendulums are tuned equal. I believe if this device had only two pendulums, it wouldn't work.
When trying to make a perpetual motion, one have to overcome a small time delay which is allways stopping a perpetual motion. To overcome this delay you have to phase shift actions in the device more than 180O, and by so excite different items in the device in advance - this is ofcourse impossible without adding energy.
 In Finsrud's device, the steel ball seems to excite >120O ahead the pendulums all the time, but by exciting them <240O late, instead of <180O late. The magnets are therefor forced to work on the ball more in one direction than oposite direction. I believe this is the key to sustain perpetual motion.
I did contact him once, because I believed the device was powered by a heavy leaden weight (In the top middle of the device), where a supporting spring gradually went downwards, and then exciting the whole machine. The pendulums are heavy, and have very little loss. Hence the machine is going slow, almost lossyless (High Q - oposite of my nick ;)), by adding a tiny portion of energy - a leaden weight and gravity - and of course will work for many years before one have to wind it up again.
Mr. Finsrud confirmed that this was not right. So I believe it is working in other ways Maybe the way I described. I don't know.

Br.

Vidar
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: george_roanoke on February 15, 2007, 06:38:36 AM
  Hello, I?m not sure how far your discussion on Finsrud's device has gone, but I wanted to post how I believe his device is at least partially working.  I will go back, though, and read through the discussions.
  It appears that Finsrud's device (for convenience here is video link again: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=553061720631716456&hl=en ) partially works on this principle of low to high, high to low (etc.), magnetic fields and inertia discussed in a topic I started here (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1958.0.html ).  Basically using a magnetic wave pattern.
  Seems the inertia created when the ball is attracted by the magnet  (coupled with the weight of the ball, which prevents the magnet from holding it as it goes by) is enough to get the ball to the low (weak) magnetic field of the next magnet--thus starting the process over again.  The ball than kicking the pendulum to keep it going.
  This is what I was hoping to accomplish with an alternating magnet wave design in a circular track. 


best regards,
gr
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: Joh70 on July 05, 2007, 08:05:52 PM
Finsrud's contruction is a genius and acurat design. But in my opinion it is not a "perpetuum mobile" in classical sense (to be used as a effective energy generator). It uses earth rotation (-spin), called coriolis power, through its swinging pendulums. this is a very impressive construction. But may be it will not work near equator and sourt/north-poles of the earth, because the swinging axis do not get additional power there. place it at equator and tell if it is working there!? Magnets are only used to adjust the balls weight at the point rolling over the springs. the three pendulums arranged in a equal sided triangle summarizing the power out of earth rotation spin and store power actualy not used by the ball. this means the pendulums deliver the energy but also work as a capacitor for energy to middle up and downs. a thing like "foucault pendulum", i think. as it could be read in the following links or others, the spin-resulting-energy doesn't not occur at equator and/or NorthPole/SouthPole.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Foucault_pendulum
http://www.calacademy.org/products/pendulum/
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: RunningBare on July 22, 2007, 01:33:15 AM
Great site!, this forum I mean.

How magnets work (http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VBgJmk6LzXY)
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: Low-Q on September 24, 2007, 01:48:56 PM
  Hello, I?m not sure how far your discussion on Finsrud's device has gone, but I wanted to post how I believe his device is at least partially working.  I will go back, though, and read through the discussions.
  It appears that Finsrud's device (for convenience here is video link again: http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=553061720631716456&hl=en ) partially works on this principle of low to high, high to low (etc.), magnetic fields and inertia discussed in a topic I started here (http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,1958.0.html ).  Basically using a magnetic wave pattern.
  Seems the inertia created when the ball is attracted by the magnet  (coupled with the weight of the ball, which prevents the magnet from holding it as it goes by) is enough to get the ball to the low (weak) magnetic field of the next magnet--thus starting the process over again.  The ball than kicking the pendulum to keep it going.
  This is what I was hoping to accomplish with an alternating magnet wave design in a circular track. 


best regards,
gr

Maybe you're right. If you drop a iron ball close to a magnet, the magnet will encreas the acceleration while approaching, and reduce the acceleration after it has passed the magnet. Not only that. The magnet will also alter the iron balls path. Maybe this is the extra energy is used to make Finsruds machine work?

Br.

Vidar
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: Discworld on January 17, 2008, 12:17:03 PM
This thing is a nice toy but I don?t believe it will run forever. Do you remember those watches that self-reload by shaking them?
No doubt this is a very accurate work but then how would you get "useful" energy from it?
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: Joh70 on February 20, 2008, 11:55:45 PM
i think, it runs forever, as long the earth rotates and the mechanics are ok (coriolis power). but not much usefull energy to lead out, i think.
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: gaby de wilde on February 21, 2008, 04:48:23 AM
but not much usefull energy to lead out, i think.

yes but that is our job. :P
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: Joh70 on February 22, 2008, 09:03:00 PM
yes, but not essentially with a device driven by coriolis power.
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: Low-Q on February 22, 2008, 09:58:06 PM
How big must a generator be to utilize sufficient power of this kind (coriolis power)?

Vidar
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: Joh70 on February 23, 2008, 11:23:38 PM
look at the video: the ball rolls relatively slow and has to overcome only friction.

i asume very big. the pendulums have to be very long. the weights heavy. a crane driver has to learn about coriolis power, because when driving mass outwards it shifts away a bit. but this is a huge crane and mass with relatively little effective power out of axis caused by coriolis (earth rotation spin). also such a device will only work between the equator and the poles. so it will not work in middle-africa, where the poor people would need it.

so i am not sure, i would suggest not to investigate further, to use coriolis power for energy production. before that, i would use the moons gravity to gain energy.
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: starryskyguy on May 23, 2008, 08:00:45 AM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us7YB7eiOeQ is an interesting ten minute video clip.  I watched the longer clip in the other link, also.  I wonder if this how the machine works:  it is a study of harmonic motions coupled to magnetic attraction forces and hysteresis.  There are no electrostatic forces, dry cell power supplies, or sloping rails to employ gravity.
A perfectly horizontal and stationary circular track is made of two aluminum rails, and holds a rolling ball. The ball passes close to magnetic fields spaced evenly around the track in three places.  At each place, a cylindrical magnet is over the track, and a horseshoe magnet is to the inside margin of the track.  The overhead magnet affects the inside edge magnet by drawing out its field toward the track centerline.  The magnets accelerate the ball toward their combined magnetic fields.  One can see the overhead magnet dip slightly on its thin, flexible support, as it attracts the ball, which passes close to its face.  The inside magnet is on a movable arm, so that it moves away from the upper magnet as the ball passes, thus weakening the sum of the attractive fields.  The ball gets a net increase in momentum.  The movable arm is actuated by a long pendulum's swing.  As the ball moves past the fields, it rolls over a wire lever that imparts a tiny kick to the pendulum's motion.  The pendulum maintains the same swing amplitude and rate.  The ball proceeds around the track to the next magnetic field station, not slowed very much by the wire lever.  The process is repeated, using identical mechanical linkages at each of three positions around the track.  The entire machine is in a glass cabinet to shield it from air currents.  The ball continues around the track in the same cyclic rate, the pendulums continue to swing, and the magnets continue to impart momentum each time the ball passes.  Having two magnets attract the ball, and only one retard it,  may mean that there is a transformation of magnetic field energy into kinetic energy.  The kinetic energy overcomes friction and air resistance.  As the decrease in magnetic attraction in these permanent magnets is measured in decades, if not centuries, this may be called a "perpetual motion machine", as its performance may outlive its creator.  The only limitation the machine may have in the short term is wear of bearing surfaces.  These could be hardened, as is done in fine watch movements.  The central staff supports the track in isolation from the base flange.  This is to reduce the influence of room vibrations (footfalls) upon the track and ball.  One can see the large coil spring under the brass dome at the top.  A lot of the brackets, counterweights and adjustments along the top portion are to make the machine adjustable.  There is a delicate balance of the moving pendulum bracket, horseshoe magnet, and pendulum bob.  It must be completely neutral in position when at rest, and completely free in several directions, so as to free side vibrations in the bob and rod.  The pendulum must swing and move the horseshoe magnet with as little loss of energy as possible.  The moving ball will refresh every other swing.  The speed of the ball and the frequency of the swings must be coordinated precisely, otherwise the ball will arrive at the wire lever at the wrong instant.  This is done by adjusting the length of the pendulum, the distances of the magnets from the ball, and the rolling resistance of the ball on the track rails.
I am sure that there are no electrostatic forces, as there are no dust particles attracted to the machine and no appearance of scars from high voltage arcing, or use of insulating materials.
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: AnandAadhar on January 28, 2009, 12:34:09 PM
I have loaded a video analyzing the Finsrud device. The basic conclusion is:
If we repel or expand from a diallel - towards the center - array of magnets and counter that force with the contraction or attraction of gravity driven magnets, then we can make a motor run given a cyclic setup containing a vibrating feedback loop.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9GucVwc36Q

Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: kidsicu2 on February 16, 2009, 05:19:18 AM
Wonderful analysis!  My thoughts were along that line as well. I just wish I had 12 years free to make one similar to it.

The pendulum motion works any where on earth and so would this machine.

A daring attempt should be made as to how to best harness the kinetic energy involved. Harnessing the energy would be the best use of the minds surrounding this forum.
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: Neodymium on March 11, 2009, 11:11:27 PM
What about using Fibre Glass resin as a glue?  That's a strong fixative that won't dry out:)
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: grayone on March 30, 2009, 02:40:37 PM
AnandAadhar; Thanks for the link, and the blowup of the machine. It is very interesting. I have not played with magnets, but Finsrud machine makes me want to try.
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: TechStuf on March 30, 2009, 08:47:05 PM
If any "chaos theory" is employed here, it is solely (as usual) for misdirection.  I see no need to employ "hidden chaos magnets" fixed with 'substandard resin' in the base of the machine.

I believe that the machine, operating on principles quite similar to celestial mechanics which govern, with high order, the movement of the planets in their orbits, requires no 'chaos' to contrast it's very orderly operation.  Most would agree that unlocking a door with a key is quite simple, provided the key and the lock are matched.  Much of our reality works the same way, elegant simplicity.....hidden only because lock and key do not agree.

Finsrud is clever to call it "art", for that is what helps mask the simplicity of the mechanism in the mind of the viewer.  The dynamics at work here are not complicated....the burden being the amount of persistence required to 'tweak' the device into operating within the required parameters.

Chaos is merely a tool, allowed temporary co-existence, which helps us learn to appreciate Order.  Once it has completed it's purpose, and Order is restored......who would long for chaos to return? 

The similarities between Finsrud's and Milkovic's system's are too obvious to ignore.  The relatively minor input force in both machines, should take place at the exact moment and time required for maximum amplification of leverage.  The slingshot effect provided by the horseshoe magnets provide the force needed by the steel spheres to amplify the pendulum's swing just enough to supply the breakaway force.

The dichotomy of Finsrud's and Milkovic's systems demonstrate the wide latitude allowable in 'force over time' intersections.

Finsrud surely spent a fair amount of time finding the right pendulum length/weight in order get that key of his to turn. Each swing period must be timed to the fraction of a second.  Nearing 1/100th I imagine.  The upper cylinder magnets likely serve as momentum dampeners, used to adjust momentum/timing of the spheres to keep from over accelarating and stay matched to the swing period of the pendulums....serving to highlight the energy surplus in the system.

The system is somewhat analogous to the "levitron" toy in that tight tolerancing is required to stay within the small envelope required for continual operation.

Had Finsrud the stomach/inclination for further research, I should think he could have stretched his 'envelope' much further by now.  Who knows, maybe he has?


TS
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: AnandAadhar on March 31, 2009, 10:49:35 AM
If any "chaos theory" is employed here, it is solely (as usual) for misdirection.  I see no need to employ "hidden chaos magnets" fixed with 'substandard resin' in the base of the machine.

I believe that the machine, operating on principles quite similar to celestial mechanics which govern, with high order, the movement of the planets in their orbits, requires no 'chaos' to contrast it's very orderly operation.  Most would agree that unlocking a door with a key is quite simple, provided the key and the lock are matched.  Much of our reality works the same way, elegant simplicity.....hidden only because lock and key do not agree.

Finsrud is clever to call it "art", for that is what helps mask the simplicity of the mechanism in the mind of the viewer.  The dynamics at work here are not complicated....the burden being the amount of persistence required to 'tweak' the device into operating within the required parameters.

Chaos is merely a tool, allowed temporary co-existence, which helps us learn to appreciate Order.  Once it has completed it's purpose, and Order is restored......who would long for chaos to return? 

The similarities between Finsrud's and Milkovic's system's are too obvious to ignore.  The relatively minor input force in both machines, should take place at the exact moment and time required for maximum amplification of leverage.  The slingshot effect provided by the horseshoe magnets provide the force needed by the steel spheres to amplify the pendulum's swing just enough to supply the breakaway force.

The dichotomy of Finsrud's and Milkovic's systems demonstrate the wide latitude allowable in 'force over time' intersections.

Finsrud surely spent a fair amount of time finding the right pendulum length/weight in order get that key of his to turn. Each swing period must be timed to the fraction of a second.  Nearing 1/100th I imagine.  The upper cylinder magnets likely serve as momentum dampeners, used to adjust momentum/timing of the spheres to keep from over accelarating and stay matched to the swing period of the pendulums....serving to highlight the energy surplus in the system.

The system is somewhat analogous to the "levitron" toy in that tight tolerancing is required to stay within the small envelope required for continual operation.

Had Finsrud the stomach/inclination for further research, I should think he could have stretched his 'envelope' much further by now.  Who knows, maybe he has?


TS


Whatever you say, Finsrud made his device with that chaos pendlum in the base. It is shown in his final blueprint for the machine.  So according him it is necessary. He's the maker. All we can do is try to understand this fact.
Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: TechStuf on March 31, 2009, 03:45:21 PM
Quote
All we can do is try to understand this fact.

Or perhaps we can do more, like try and reconcile what we are witnessing as having anything to do with chaos.  The machine moves like clockwork, and while I can see the potential value in a central, hidden pendulum to possibly tilt the track slightly in a circular fashion....I fail to see the opportunity for chaotic motions to force couple to the machine in a positive manner, as such forces would have to be well timed, ie. highly ordered, and not truly chaotic, to be of real benefit.  In fact, in studying the device, I could not ascertain any form of chaotic interactions that could be of any benefit to the machine at all....and if there were, then such forces appear to be absolutely miniscule compared to the dynamics which are self evident.

Perhaps I'm entirely off base here. (wouldn't be the first time)  Experience, however, tells me that we are witnessing, in plain view, enough positive force interaction to power the machine, as evidenced by the employment of speed governors for the spheres.


Regards,


TS

Title: Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
Post by: AnandAadhar on January 13, 2010, 10:05:04 AM
The video of George Delk seems to confirm the Finsrud case of suggesting that magnetism with gravity can be caught in a dynamical relationship displaying the energy of time. I will try to replicate Delk's simplified Finsrud pendulum. if that works I will try to put it at work with my cakra rotor making IPMM number twelve. I hope we get out of this make-belief phase of non-replicable stuff that is possibly a Mylow kind of fake.

See my analysis of the Finsrud PM:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9GucVwc36Q
The peswiki thread on this:
http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Perpetual_Magnetic_Pendulum_by_George_Delk
IPMM-thread:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4449.new.html#new
Finsrud overunity discussion:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=18.0;wap2
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=18.45
Delk Overunity thread:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8568.msg221994#msg221994
George Delk Discussion group:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Delk_MP/
Delk's video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZjNbjhxgt4