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Author Topic: Finsrud perpetual motion machine  (Read 75795 times)

Offline Discworld

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Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2008, 12:17:03 PM »
This thing is a nice toy but I don?t believe it will run forever. Do you remember those watches that self-reload by shaking them?
No doubt this is a very accurate work but then how would you get "useful" energy from it?

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
« Reply #45 on: January 17, 2008, 12:17:03 PM »

Offline Joh70

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Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
« Reply #46 on: February 20, 2008, 11:55:45 PM »
i think, it runs forever, as long the earth rotates and the mechanics are ok (coriolis power). but not much usefull energy to lead out, i think.

Offline gaby de wilde

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Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2008, 04:48:23 AM »
but not much usefull energy to lead out, i think.

yes but that is our job. :P

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Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
« Reply #47 on: February 21, 2008, 04:48:23 AM »
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Offline Joh70

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Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
« Reply #48 on: February 22, 2008, 09:03:00 PM »
yes, but not essentially with a device driven by coriolis power.

Offline Low-Q

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Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2008, 09:58:06 PM »
How big must a generator be to utilize sufficient power of this kind (coriolis power)?

Vidar

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Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
« Reply #49 on: February 22, 2008, 09:58:06 PM »
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Offline Joh70

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Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
« Reply #50 on: February 23, 2008, 11:23:38 PM »
look at the video: the ball rolls relatively slow and has to overcome only friction.

i asume very big. the pendulums have to be very long. the weights heavy. a crane driver has to learn about coriolis power, because when driving mass outwards it shifts away a bit. but this is a huge crane and mass with relatively little effective power out of axis caused by coriolis (earth rotation spin). also such a device will only work between the equator and the poles. so it will not work in middle-africa, where the poor people would need it.

so i am not sure, i would suggest not to investigate further, to use coriolis power for energy production. before that, i would use the moons gravity to gain energy.

Offline starryskyguy

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Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
« Reply #51 on: May 23, 2008, 08:00:45 AM »
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=us7YB7eiOeQ is an interesting ten minute video clip.  I watched the longer clip in the other link, also.  I wonder if this how the machine works:  it is a study of harmonic motions coupled to magnetic attraction forces and hysteresis.  There are no electrostatic forces, dry cell power supplies, or sloping rails to employ gravity.
A perfectly horizontal and stationary circular track is made of two aluminum rails, and holds a rolling ball. The ball passes close to magnetic fields spaced evenly around the track in three places.  At each place, a cylindrical magnet is over the track, and a horseshoe magnet is to the inside margin of the track.  The overhead magnet affects the inside edge magnet by drawing out its field toward the track centerline.  The magnets accelerate the ball toward their combined magnetic fields.  One can see the overhead magnet dip slightly on its thin, flexible support, as it attracts the ball, which passes close to its face.  The inside magnet is on a movable arm, so that it moves away from the upper magnet as the ball passes, thus weakening the sum of the attractive fields.  The ball gets a net increase in momentum.  The movable arm is actuated by a long pendulum's swing.  As the ball moves past the fields, it rolls over a wire lever that imparts a tiny kick to the pendulum's motion.  The pendulum maintains the same swing amplitude and rate.  The ball proceeds around the track to the next magnetic field station, not slowed very much by the wire lever.  The process is repeated, using identical mechanical linkages at each of three positions around the track.  The entire machine is in a glass cabinet to shield it from air currents.  The ball continues around the track in the same cyclic rate, the pendulums continue to swing, and the magnets continue to impart momentum each time the ball passes.  Having two magnets attract the ball, and only one retard it,  may mean that there is a transformation of magnetic field energy into kinetic energy.  The kinetic energy overcomes friction and air resistance.  As the decrease in magnetic attraction in these permanent magnets is measured in decades, if not centuries, this may be called a "perpetual motion machine", as its performance may outlive its creator.  The only limitation the machine may have in the short term is wear of bearing surfaces.  These could be hardened, as is done in fine watch movements.  The central staff supports the track in isolation from the base flange.  This is to reduce the influence of room vibrations (footfalls) upon the track and ball.  One can see the large coil spring under the brass dome at the top.  A lot of the brackets, counterweights and adjustments along the top portion are to make the machine adjustable.  There is a delicate balance of the moving pendulum bracket, horseshoe magnet, and pendulum bob.  It must be completely neutral in position when at rest, and completely free in several directions, so as to free side vibrations in the bob and rod.  The pendulum must swing and move the horseshoe magnet with as little loss of energy as possible.  The moving ball will refresh every other swing.  The speed of the ball and the frequency of the swings must be coordinated precisely, otherwise the ball will arrive at the wire lever at the wrong instant.  This is done by adjusting the length of the pendulum, the distances of the magnets from the ball, and the rolling resistance of the ball on the track rails.
I am sure that there are no electrostatic forces, as there are no dust particles attracted to the machine and no appearance of scars from high voltage arcing, or use of insulating materials.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
« Reply #51 on: May 23, 2008, 08:00:45 AM »
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Offline AnandAadhar

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Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
« Reply #52 on: January 28, 2009, 12:34:09 PM »
I have loaded a video analyzing the Finsrud device. The basic conclusion is:
If we repel or expand from a diallel - towards the center - array of magnets and counter that force with the contraction or attraction of gravity driven magnets, then we can make a motor run given a cyclic setup containing a vibrating feedback loop.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9GucVwc36Q


Offline kidsicu2

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Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2009, 05:19:18 AM »
Wonderful analysis!  My thoughts were along that line as well. I just wish I had 12 years free to make one similar to it.

The pendulum motion works any where on earth and so would this machine.

A daring attempt should be made as to how to best harness the kinetic energy involved. Harnessing the energy would be the best use of the minds surrounding this forum.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
« Reply #53 on: February 16, 2009, 05:19:18 AM »
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Offline Neodymium

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Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
« Reply #54 on: March 11, 2009, 11:11:27 PM »
What about using Fibre Glass resin as a glue?  That's a strong fixative that won't dry out:)

Offline grayone

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Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
« Reply #55 on: March 30, 2009, 02:40:37 PM »
AnandAadhar; Thanks for the link, and the blowup of the machine. It is very interesting. I have not played with magnets, but Finsrud machine makes me want to try.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
« Reply #55 on: March 30, 2009, 02:40:37 PM »
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Offline TechStuf

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Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
« Reply #56 on: March 30, 2009, 08:47:05 PM »
If any "chaos theory" is employed here, it is solely (as usual) for misdirection.  I see no need to employ "hidden chaos magnets" fixed with 'substandard resin' in the base of the machine.

I believe that the machine, operating on principles quite similar to celestial mechanics which govern, with high order, the movement of the planets in their orbits, requires no 'chaos' to contrast it's very orderly operation.  Most would agree that unlocking a door with a key is quite simple, provided the key and the lock are matched.  Much of our reality works the same way, elegant simplicity.....hidden only because lock and key do not agree.

Finsrud is clever to call it "art", for that is what helps mask the simplicity of the mechanism in the mind of the viewer.  The dynamics at work here are not complicated....the burden being the amount of persistence required to 'tweak' the device into operating within the required parameters.

Chaos is merely a tool, allowed temporary co-existence, which helps us learn to appreciate Order.  Once it has completed it's purpose, and Order is restored......who would long for chaos to return? 

The similarities between Finsrud's and Milkovic's system's are too obvious to ignore.  The relatively minor input force in both machines, should take place at the exact moment and time required for maximum amplification of leverage.  The slingshot effect provided by the horseshoe magnets provide the force needed by the steel spheres to amplify the pendulum's swing just enough to supply the breakaway force.

The dichotomy of Finsrud's and Milkovic's systems demonstrate the wide latitude allowable in 'force over time' intersections.

Finsrud surely spent a fair amount of time finding the right pendulum length/weight in order get that key of his to turn. Each swing period must be timed to the fraction of a second.  Nearing 1/100th I imagine.  The upper cylinder magnets likely serve as momentum dampeners, used to adjust momentum/timing of the spheres to keep from over accelarating and stay matched to the swing period of the pendulums....serving to highlight the energy surplus in the system.

The system is somewhat analogous to the "levitron" toy in that tight tolerancing is required to stay within the small envelope required for continual operation.

Had Finsrud the stomach/inclination for further research, I should think he could have stretched his 'envelope' much further by now.  Who knows, maybe he has?


TS
« Last Edit: March 30, 2009, 10:58:56 PM by TechStuf »

Offline AnandAadhar

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Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
« Reply #57 on: March 31, 2009, 10:49:35 AM »
If any "chaos theory" is employed here, it is solely (as usual) for misdirection.  I see no need to employ "hidden chaos magnets" fixed with 'substandard resin' in the base of the machine.

I believe that the machine, operating on principles quite similar to celestial mechanics which govern, with high order, the movement of the planets in their orbits, requires no 'chaos' to contrast it's very orderly operation.  Most would agree that unlocking a door with a key is quite simple, provided the key and the lock are matched.  Much of our reality works the same way, elegant simplicity.....hidden only because lock and key do not agree.

Finsrud is clever to call it "art", for that is what helps mask the simplicity of the mechanism in the mind of the viewer.  The dynamics at work here are not complicated....the burden being the amount of persistence required to 'tweak' the device into operating within the required parameters.

Chaos is merely a tool, allowed temporary co-existence, which helps us learn to appreciate Order.  Once it has completed it's purpose, and Order is restored......who would long for chaos to return? 

The similarities between Finsrud's and Milkovic's system's are too obvious to ignore.  The relatively minor input force in both machines, should take place at the exact moment and time required for maximum amplification of leverage.  The slingshot effect provided by the horseshoe magnets provide the force needed by the steel spheres to amplify the pendulum's swing just enough to supply the breakaway force.

The dichotomy of Finsrud's and Milkovic's systems demonstrate the wide latitude allowable in 'force over time' intersections.

Finsrud surely spent a fair amount of time finding the right pendulum length/weight in order get that key of his to turn. Each swing period must be timed to the fraction of a second.  Nearing 1/100th I imagine.  The upper cylinder magnets likely serve as momentum dampeners, used to adjust momentum/timing of the spheres to keep from over accelarating and stay matched to the swing period of the pendulums....serving to highlight the energy surplus in the system.

The system is somewhat analogous to the "levitron" toy in that tight tolerancing is required to stay within the small envelope required for continual operation.

Had Finsrud the stomach/inclination for further research, I should think he could have stretched his 'envelope' much further by now.  Who knows, maybe he has?


TS


Whatever you say, Finsrud made his device with that chaos pendlum in the base. It is shown in his final blueprint for the machine.  So according him it is necessary. He's the maker. All we can do is try to understand this fact.

Offline TechStuf

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Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
« Reply #58 on: March 31, 2009, 03:45:21 PM »
Quote
All we can do is try to understand this fact.

Or perhaps we can do more, like try and reconcile what we are witnessing as having anything to do with chaos.  The machine moves like clockwork, and while I can see the potential value in a central, hidden pendulum to possibly tilt the track slightly in a circular fashion....I fail to see the opportunity for chaotic motions to force couple to the machine in a positive manner, as such forces would have to be well timed, ie. highly ordered, and not truly chaotic, to be of real benefit.  In fact, in studying the device, I could not ascertain any form of chaotic interactions that could be of any benefit to the machine at all....and if there were, then such forces appear to be absolutely miniscule compared to the dynamics which are self evident.

Perhaps I'm entirely off base here. (wouldn't be the first time)  Experience, however, tells me that we are witnessing, in plain view, enough positive force interaction to power the machine, as evidenced by the employment of speed governors for the spheres.


Regards,


TS


Offline AnandAadhar

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Re: Finsrud perpetual motion machine
« Reply #59 on: January 13, 2010, 10:05:04 AM »
The video of George Delk seems to confirm the Finsrud case of suggesting that magnetism with gravity can be caught in a dynamical relationship displaying the energy of time. I will try to replicate Delk's simplified Finsrud pendulum. if that works I will try to put it at work with my cakra rotor making IPMM number twelve. I hope we get out of this make-belief phase of non-replicable stuff that is possibly a Mylow kind of fake.

See my analysis of the Finsrud PM:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=E9GucVwc36Q
The peswiki thread on this:
http://www.peswiki.com/index.php/OS:Perpetual_Magnetic_Pendulum_by_George_Delk
IPMM-thread:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php/topic,4449.new.html#new
Finsrud overunity discussion:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=18.0;wap2
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=18.45
Delk Overunity thread:
http://www.overunity.com/index.php?topic=8568.msg221994#msg221994
George Delk Discussion group:
http://tech.groups.yahoo.com/group/Delk_MP/
Delk's video:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SZjNbjhxgt4

 

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