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Author Topic: HOG01 Hartmann Orthogonal Generator  (Read 14229 times)

Offline hartiberlin

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HOG01 Hartmann Orthogonal Generator
« on: December 10, 2006, 03:29:14 AM »
Hi All,
here is a new device, that I came up with.

It is using 2 coils at 90 degrees, that is why I call
it Hartmann Orthogonal Generator (HOG).

I was inspired by the free bicycle light system over here:
http://www.freelights.co.uk/how.html

There they have a moving magnet on the wheel.

I am having instead of this a driver coil,
that gives a magnet a kick inside a case .

I also have a second case close to it, where a second
coil is wound around, also with a magnet inside.
This second coil is wound 90 degrees (orthogonal) turned
to the first coil.
As the 2 coils are 90 degrees turned around, they don?t influence each
other and currents in each one, do not do any induction into the other...

The only thing, that keeps these 2 coils "coupled" are magnets
that are in each case.

Now the first coil is just pulsed shortly with a square pulse
(in this moment from my function generator,
later models will have an integrated driver circuit powered
by the output power)
at around 10 to 20 Hz.
This makes the magnet inside the coilbox jump up and down and toggle back and
forth forcefully.

As the second coil box is placed near the first box, this magnet motion
is transfered via its magnetic field onto the second magnet, sitting in the
second coilbox.
This second magnet then begins also to toggle back and forth
and thus induces voltage and current inside this second coil,
which is our output coil.

Now these 2 coils work a bit like transformer, only coupled by the toggling
and jumping magnets.
The good thing is, that the 2 coils itsself don?t drag back on each other,
as they are 90 degrees turned around so a current change in one coil, does
not affect the other coil.

Also as the magnet jumps inside the drivercoil, it does not consume
any more input power, it almost stays constant.
Thus the output power could be scaled up  by using bigger and stronger magnets
and having more turns with bigger sized wire at the secondary coil.


Here is a video of this HOG concept.
You can see in the primary front coil box a magnet jump up and
down and toggling and in the coil behind it, there is the second magnet
toggling inside this coil bobbin and lighting up a red LED via its induction.
Also parallel with the LED is my scope connected, which shows
the induction voltage.

This concept can be scaled up very easily.

Enclosed with this posting:
hog01.avi

Regards, Stefan.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

HOG01 Hartmann Orthogonal Generator
« on: December 10, 2006, 03:29:14 AM »

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: HOG01 Hartmann Orthogonal Generator
« Reply #1 on: December 10, 2006, 03:36:34 AM »
P.S.:
The HOG01.avi  movie is in Microsoft MPEG-2 V2 videocodec
and GSM 6.1 audio codec.

I don?t yet claim any overunity operation.
I did not yet have the time to test quantitatively
how much power goes in and comes out.

But I think this concept is quite easily upscaleable
and as the 2 coils don?t influence each other, there
is no Lentz law back drag effect between the 2 coils.

The only coupling is between the 2 magnets and as you
draw output current from the second coil, the magnet inside
this coil is of course slowed down.

But then I will use the Newman spark Gap effect on the
output of the second coil to have an spark gap
jumping arc which will switch on and off the second coil current
very rapidly and thus produce a lot of high voltage RF bursts.

Then when you put an incandescent lamp in series with this
spark gap and coil, you can light up this bulb very easily with
the RF bursts and thus the magnet will not get too much stopped
in its motion.
This will come in HOG version 02.

Regards, Stefan.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: HOG01 Hartmann Orthogonal Generator
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2006, 04:28:48 AM »
Hi MrAmos,
well, these are just 2 aircore coils I had lying
around from former experiments.

They have around 1 mm diameter wire size and
each is around 200 to 500 windings I guess.

I drove the primary coil with my function generator on
square wave with +/- 5 Volts peek , so 10 Volts Peek to Peek
at around 10 Hz with 50 % duty cycle...
( this function generator unfortunately can?t vary the pulse width...)

I had a 0.47 uF foil cap parallel with the primary coil to dampen
the spikes BackEMF to not destroy the function generator
and for some damped oscillation...

But for real input and output power measurements
I need a better primary driver generator, which uses
less power and only generates shorter pulses
with maybe a duty cyle of 10 % on and 90 % off
at around 10 Hz. This will save drastically on input power.

Nice thing is, the primary and secondary coils are
totally independent of each other, so if you draw output power
there is no feedback to the input coil...
Regards, Stefan.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: HOG01 Hartmann Orthogonal Generator
« Reply #2 on: December 10, 2006, 04:28:48 AM »
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Offline fleebell

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Re: HOG01 Hartmann Orthogonal Generator
« Reply #3 on: December 10, 2006, 05:11:41 AM »
You might want to try about 80 to 120 hertz, it's pretty much a waste of time to use a frequency any faster that that though as the magnets won't have time to move.  I found that out with my bobble generators that use the same type coils. You will also find out that you won't be able to get as much out of them as you would with a normal gen setup as the back emf will start effecting them and reducing the amount of magnet movement as you get close to the max output for each coil.   The real coils for the bike light have about 5000 turns of 32 gage(approx)  wire in them.  Good idea though, I might try it with some of my coils that are already made up.
Lee b

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: HOG01 Hartmann Orthogonal Generator
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2006, 05:23:14 AM »
Hi Lee,
80 to 100 Hz is much too fast !
Then the magnets don?t jump anymore,
but just buzz a bit, but that does not move the
second magnet in the output coil anymore so the output is
much lower.

The trick is to have the magnets really tumbling and toggling,
so they generate a good and steady movement in theoutput coil.
You can feel the best frequency, when the magnet in the
primary coil is realy jumping the most and never stops
then this is the best frequency, which was in my setup around 10 to 15 Hz...

By the way, the second magnets bobbin case was not closed
as I took the video, so the magnet jumped
some timesout and I had to put it into thecoil again,
but this was also to show, what kind of magnet was inside there.

In a commercial unit, this coil casebox would of course be closed,
so the magnet can not jump out !
;)

Regards, Stefan.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: HOG01 Hartmann Orthogonal Generator
« Reply #4 on: December 10, 2006, 05:23:14 AM »
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Offline fleebell

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Re: HOG01 Hartmann Orthogonal Generator
« Reply #5 on: December 10, 2006, 06:53:45 AM »
Stefan,
 I have a suggestion. Get some marble shaped magnets and wind your gen coils on forms just a little bigger than the magnets so they can't really bounce but basically just spin around inside instead and try it that way... it works alot better that way in my bobble coils.  My coils with the sphere magnets tend to put out 2-3 times as much as the ones with the flat disks of the same diameter and they make much less noise!  I normally squirt a small bit of dry graphic lubricant inside the coil forms with the magnets before I seal the magnets inside. It makes it easier for the magnets to move/spin around. I use pvc tubing for coil forms.

I don't understand why your magnets don't bounce around at the higher osc freqs.   I know the gen coil magnets can bounce around that fast as mine do it without a problem.  The only thing I can think of is that your bounce coils are not strong enough.  But thats a battle there as you want them using as low a current as possible.  I guess your stuck with the low freq.

Lee

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: HOG01 Hartmann Orthogonal Generator
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2006, 06:55:56 AM »
Hi,
no there was no diode.
Just a 0.47 uF cap parallel with the first coil
driven by a 50-50 % duty cycle symmetrical square wave.
so the pusitive pulse is + 5 Volts
and the negative pulse is - 5 volts.

The function generator does not put out  Zero and + 5 Volts,
but - 5 Volts and + 5 Volts.

The first coil is wound onto the plastic baker in
the front, where you can see the magnet jumping inside.
it has brown plastic tape wound around it, so you can?t see the
coil wire.

The second coil is in the back, where you can see the copper wire.

Hope this helps.

Regards, Stefan.

P.S: Yes, could have also been 7.8 Hz,
where the magnets jumped the most,
I did not count it on the scope and the dial scale of the function
generator is not very precise....

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: HOG01 Hartmann Orthogonal Generator
« Reply #6 on: December 10, 2006, 06:55:56 AM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: HOG01 Hartmann Orthogonal Generator
« Reply #7 on: December 10, 2006, 07:01:08 AM »
Hi Lee,
yes,good idea with the sphere ball shaped magnets.
Have to get a few.

Will try this then again.

Yes, this can be optimized in many ways.
One way would be to wind the driver and
output coil onto the same case,
but also 90 degrees rotated, so you just only need ONE
magnet not two !

Did it work better for you at around 80 to 100 Hz ?

How did you get so high frequencies with your

bobble generator ?

Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Offline fleebell

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Re: HOG01 Hartmann Orthogonal Generator
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2006, 07:29:00 AM »
It's easy to get them there, you have to remember my setup has the flipper magnets on a shaft and spin past the coils.  Say rpm instead of hertz and you can what I mean.   The little pic attached shows one of my setups and the rotor between the coils. That rotor has 6 magnets on it so at 60 rpm I'm getting 240 passes on the magnets per minute... thats about max on that particular generator, going faster just causes the output to go down (not enough flip time)

(Well I tried to attach it I don't know what happened there ...this is a link to it though.

http://www.leebell.net/workshop/pics/TPROTO2.GIF

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: HOG01 Hartmann Orthogonal Generator
« Reply #8 on: December 10, 2006, 07:29:00 AM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: HOG01 Hartmann Orthogonal Generator
« Reply #9 on: December 10, 2006, 07:46:52 AM »
Okay, I just found a bigger  picture
on your site about it:

(http://www.leebell.net/workshop/pics/PROTO2A.GIF)


Well, if you would rotate all coils by 90 degrees, the passing magnets
on the rotor would have less drag, so it would be much easier
to turn the rotor with less force.

What kind of power level do you get out of it with your
latest design ?
Many thanks.

Regards, Stefan.

Offline fleebell

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Re: HOG01 Hartmann Orthogonal Generator
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2006, 08:18:34 AM »
The last one I made was the little windmill one.
 http://www.leebell.net/workshop/pics/PHOTOP4.JPG
 It has 8 coils. Each coil has a 1/2 sperical supermagnet in it and I think it was 1500 turns of #28 wire.  It will put out almost 1/2 an amp at 6+ volts if turned about 60 rpm-70 rpm.  It puts out almost as much at the bobble gen in that pic that uses 3/4 by 1/8 disk magnets and twice as many coils.  It really didn't matter which way I mounted the magnets as they are far enough away from the coils you notice almost no drag anyway.  Thats the whole key, just close enough to flip the magnet but not enough to really affect the coilds themselves.  The rotor magnets don't face the coils the n/s ends are inline with the rotor disk instead. I get much more flipping action that way.

Lee

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Re: HOG01 Hartmann Orthogonal Generator
« Reply #10 on: December 10, 2006, 08:18:34 AM »
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Offline hartiberlin

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Re: HOG01 Hartmann Orthogonal Generator
« Reply #11 on: December 10, 2006, 08:24:26 AM »
Hi Lee,
about 3 Watts is pretty good output !

Did you ever try to use a small efficient DC motor
to turn the rotor from the 3 Watts output ?
Maybe it is enough to close the loop ?

Many thanks for all the infos.

Offline hartiberlin

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Re: HOG01 Hartmann Orthogonal Generator
« Reply #12 on: December 10, 2006, 08:41:08 AM »
One other idea to power the first coil in my HOG is
also to use a bigger many thousands winding primary
coil and attach to the magnet a string and if the magnet falls down
the string will close a mechanical switch and this energizes the coil
from a NiMH or Lead acid accumulator.
If you use the right contact materials for the switch
there will be lots of sparks and RF bursts on the
switch contact points and your battery will never discharge,
if you tune the spark right.

Maybe the secondary coil is then able to power via a greatz bridge rectifier
some supercaps and use a supercap instead of the battery to power
again the frist driver coil.

Then we might have closed the loop.

Regards, Stefan.

Offline fleebell

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Re: HOG01 Hartmann Orthogonal Generator
« Reply #13 on: December 10, 2006, 09:49:25 AM »
I don't think it would be able to run a motor very well. The current averaged out about 1/2 an amp on both analog and digital meters but looking at it with a scope showed a really messy hash. Maybe feeding the output into supercap would help but the bobble gens work alot better at charging batteries (what I designed them for).  The messy output seems to work really well for that purpose. I have no idea why, although there is probably someone on here that can explain it.  My original aim was to build a big bobble gen operated by a planned water wheel in my back yard at the end of my shop. It will be charging a battery bank.  The thing about the design is you can keep adding coils and magnets as you (meaning me living on disability) can afford them.  I want to build one with a 6 foot rotor with ALOT of coils operated by a 10 ft wheel.  It will in turn be operated by a solar hot water panel (rankine engine) pump system.   Yup, it will be a real rube-goldburg type setup but all my designs are expandable on purpose due to this plan. Eventually my shop will be self powered.

 I wish you luck on you project there, I might experiment a little bit in that area since I've got some coils already made, just need to add the extra coils. It's a very interesting idea to me. I wonder if a "basic stamp" micro could be setup to operate with some feedback that would pulse the flipper magnet at the most efficient speed to generate maximum current/voltage depending on load?. I know my bobble gens seem to have a preference for a particular speed depending on what I have hooked up as a load. If you spin it faster than that the output goes down not up.

Lee

Offline tomas

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Re: HOG01 Hartmann Orthogonal Generator
« Reply #14 on: December 10, 2006, 10:40:01 PM »
hey :)

you can get the magnets in resonance by pulsing them with the 7.8 Hz signal, but the magnets movement itself is variating due to the mass of the field.

T.

 

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