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Author Topic: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible  (Read 4243 times)

Offline telecom

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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #30 on: October 03, 2018, 08:52:24 PM »
No, I just noticed the topic a few days ago. I'm busy with other things so don't plan on trying but it looks interesting.
Maybe this would be of interest to user name Floor?  looks right up his alley.

Regards
Luc
I thought it was you work at the picture.
In this case, where that image came from?
Regards

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Offline gotoluc

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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #31 on: October 03, 2018, 09:04:30 PM »
where that image came from?

It came from a webpage I found that's related to the inventor Dr. Kenneth Kozeka

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/kedron-energy-demonstrates-a-new-discovery-to-produce-a-motor-driven-by-permanent-magnets-alone-300545369.html

Here is Dr. Kenneth Kozeka webpage but does not contain that picture: http://www.kedronenergy.com/
Here is his video but nothing is demonstrated, only promotion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUFSgD6q1dI

Luc

Offline lumen

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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2018, 07:44:08 AM »
I have done many magnet interaction tests on CNC machines to find any difference in energy between two paths to a common point and have found nothing over about 3% which is easily within error margin.

So I'd be very surprised if anyone has found a way to do useful work by such actions alone.

There are also many patents that do not work and have never been tested. The only requirement for a patent is money.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #32 on: October 04, 2018, 07:44:08 AM »
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Offline AlienGrey

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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #33 on: October 04, 2018, 12:58:37 PM »

It came from a webpage I found that's related to the inventor Dr. Kenneth Kozeka

https://www.prnewswire.com/news-releases/kedron-energy-demonstrates-a-new-discovery-to-produce-a-motor-driven-by-permanent-magnets-alone-300545369.html

Here is Dr. Kenneth Kozeka webpage but does not contain that picture: http://www.kedronenergy.com/
Here is his video but nothing is demonstrated, only promotion: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IUFSgD6q1dI

Luc
Yes seams to me it's about supporting the huge money makers institutions another rip off by bigots I have seen a few stand alone devices in my time thisd guy does not show it nore is it portable or available as far as i can see.

Offline onepower

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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2018, 06:18:06 PM »
AG
Quote
I have seen a few stand alone devices in my time thisd guy does not show it nore is it portable or available as far as i can see.

Obviously it is still in development and they are looking for partners to further develop the technology.

I think this kind of technology scares the crap out of the technology trolls because it is cheap and with development will be inherently simple to build. It should also be obvious to even a layman that once the premise is nailed down the technology could also be scaled up or down.

You seem to be very anti-free energy technology... why are you here again?.

 






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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #34 on: October 04, 2018, 06:18:06 PM »
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Offline F6FLT

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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #35 on: October 05, 2018, 09:30:56 PM »
@onepower

Sorry to be in a scientific attitude, not a handyman. I "believe" in math, it's pure logic, and math is completely embedded in physics and its definitions of magnetic field, forces, work... I only said that Kozeka's explanation is not correct because Maxwell's electromagnetism math is incompatible with an energy gain in a cycle of permanent magnet movement, whatever their path and motions. And this is true not only for the work of a magnetic force, but for that of any conservative force.
So if we do have an energy gain, either unknown energy is taken where we don't expect it, and that's interesting, or Maxwell's theory is incorrect, the magnetic flux would not be conservative, but for different reasons it's unlikely nevertheless possible.

Dozens of permanent magnet motors have already been patented or promoted for investor research (Minato, Perendev, LLW9...) but if we are here, it's because none of them could be duplicated, and Occam's razor tells us that it is because none of them are working so far.

I saw somewhere but I don't remember where, an experiment with magnets moving face to face, or sliding side by side, with measurements and calculation of the work done. The work was not quite the same for both movements, and could have provided energy over a cycle. The experiment was very rough, I considered that the energy gain was less than the experimental uncertainty on the measurements and I did not attach any importance to it. Now with this new claim, it may need to be explored further.

Offline onepower

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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2018, 06:04:27 AM »
F6FLT
Quote
Sorry to be in a scientific attitude, not a handyman. I "believe" in math, it's pure logic, and math is completely embedded in physics and its definitions of magnetic field, forces, work... I only said that Kozeka's explanation is not correct because Maxwell's electromagnetism math is incompatible with an energy gain in a cycle of permanent magnet movement, whatever their path and motions. And this is true not only for the work of a magnetic force, but for that of any conservative force.
So if we do have an energy gain, either unknown energy is taken where we don't expect it, and that's interesting, or Maxwell's theory is incorrect, the magnetic flux would not be conservative, but for different reasons it's unlikely nevertheless possible.

I see several flaws in your reasoning. First while the math may be logical it is dependent on whether one is considering the right variables and equations or not. Everyone said Earnshaws theorem could not be violated and therefore assumed magnetic levitation was impossible. However a spinning magnetic top can levitate without violation of the theorem because it does not apply. They made false assumptions by applying rules where they have no application. So the math can be correct but not if your asking the wrong questions and making false assumptions... obviously.

Think of it this way, the conservation of energy states energy must be conserved or input equals output. However a heat pump can output six times more energy than the input. This is true because the heat pump does not dissipate the input energy as heat it pumps already existing heat from one place to another. If you did not understand how it worked it would appear as an energy gain and all the math would be incorrect but it's not incorrect... you would be incorrect.

Quote
Dozens of permanent magnet motors have already been patented or promoted for investor research (Minato, Perendev, LLW9...) but if we are here, it's because none of them could be duplicated, and Occam's razor tells us that it is because none of them are working so far.

It's dependent on our perspective. If the actual mechanism for gain was never disclosed and it seldom is then logically you do not know how or why it works and could never replicate it. Occam's razor suggests the more probable explanation is the more likely one so let's look at the probabilities.
1) You cannot understand it and do not know how it works and cannot replicate it.
2) The inventor understands it and knows exactly how it works.

In my opinion the more probable explanation is that the person with the most facts making the least assumptions is more likely to be correct. Unfortunately this is not you because you have no facts and obviously do not understand how it works. Occam's razor should never be used from a position of complete ignorance to the facts and that was never its intent.

Quote
Occam's razor (or Ockham's razor) is a principle from philosophy. Suppose there exist two explanations for an occurrence. In this case the simpler one is usually better. Another way of saying it is that the more assumptions you have to make, the more unlikely an explanation.

Simpler is not better that's a populist prostitution of the intent of this principal however the more facts we as individuals have in hand making the least assumptions should be the most likely explanation. Which begs the question... have you done any tests or experiments to prove anything for yourself or relied on mostly unqualified opinions from the internet which are generally 99% BS?.

Case in point, Occam's razor suggest people who fail to produce the desired results due to their own ignorance to the facts are most likely the people we should not be taking advice from. A much better option would be to pay attention to people who have found success. For example are you more likely to believe a mechanic who claims your truck cannot be fixed or the mechanic who just fixed it?... pretty obvious in my opinion.

No offense but I find your sense of reason... unreasonable.

Here is an interesting question, if a PM is in fact an electro-magnet in that each electron orbit locked within any given magnetic domain in itself constitutes a "current loop" then what if any given action/reaction could change the axis of some of the free electron current loops. We are speaking of billions of individual electrons within a PM which move in an orbit which on the most fundamental level constitutes a "path of conduction" does it not?. As above so below and we cannot just ignore the fact that infinitely massive things tend to follow the same laws as infinitely small things whether we understand it or not. If the rules we say we believe apply then they must apply in a universal sense otherwise we are left with contradictions. We must ask the question... what is possible, on what level and to what extent?. Anything less is just boring in my opinion.

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #36 on: October 07, 2018, 06:04:27 AM »
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Offline F6FLT

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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #37 on: October 08, 2018, 01:10:37 PM »
F6FLT
I see several flaws in your reasoning. First while the math may be logical it is dependent on whether one is considering the right variables and equations or not.

You should apply your statement to Kozeka, that's exactly what I said about his explanation. There are "flaws in his reasoning" because he considers the right variables and equations to explain an incompatible fact.

Quote
Everyone said Earnshaws theorem could not be violated and therefore assumed magnetic levitation was impossible. However a spinning magnetic top can levitate without violation of the theorem because it does not apply.

I agree with you that Earnshaws' theorem or any other theorem demonstrating impossibility can generally be circumvented. The reason for this is that such a theorem cannot define its field of application without uncertainties or unknowns, which is not the case when the theorem is a positive statement where sufficient elements for the effect can be given.
I rather consider these theorems as challenges (as for the second law of thermodynamics).

However, in our context, it is not at all the same problem ("non sequitur"). I am not saying that Kozeka's device or permanent magnet motors in general cannot work, I am simply saying that his explanation of this particular case is wrong. If Kozeka correctly explained his device, why energy can be extracted from the movement he developed between two points of equal potential magnetic energy despite the conservative force, in the same way that the explanation of rotational magnetic levitation explains the circumvention of Earnshaws' theorem, this would be perfectly acceptable. But he didn't do it.

The past shows us that inventors who provide theoretical explanations that are incompatible with what they claim to have built, do so to give credibility to their inventions through science that they manipulate or do not master. Only people who are unskilled in the field are bluffed. Many investors have fallen into this kind of trap and lost money, as well as DIYers who have wasted their time. So be careful!

Quote
If the actual mechanism for gain was never disclosed and it seldom is then logically you do not know how or why it works and could never replicate it.

Science is the study of what is observable. What is not observable cannot be part of the scientific method. This is why science cannot theorize about the existence of God or the eating habits of the Pink Unicorn.
Whether we imagine the existence of the Pink Unicorn or that of a secret principle of permanent magnet motors hidden for decades is of the same level.
We need observable facts.
When it comes to permanent magnet motors, we don't have them yet.

Quote
...Which begs the question... have you done any tests or experiments to prove anything for yourself or relied on mostly unqualified opinions from the internet which are generally 99% BS?.

Many! In electronics, since the age of 11. That's why I'm very careful now. All the experiments in FE I have done so far (single wire transmission, back emf, SMOT, so-called "scalar waves", Steorn-style parametric motors...) show that everything works according to conventional theories.
I'm looking for loopholes but I haven't found any yet. Most of those who believe they have found them are only surprised by commonplace phenomena that they do not understand.
That's one of the reasons why everyone here still pays for electricity. Wouldn't someone pay it?

Quote
if a PM is in fact an electro-magnet in that each electron orbit locked within any given magnetic domain in itself constitutes a "current loop" then what if any given action/reaction could change the axis of some of the free electron current loops. We are speaking of billions of individual electrons within a PM which move in an orbit which on the most fundamental level constitutes a "path of conduction" does it not?. As above so below and we cannot just ignore the fact that infinitely massive things tend to follow the same laws as infinitely small things whether we understand it or not. If the rules we say we believe apply then they must apply in a universal sense otherwise we are left with contradictions. We must ask the question... what is possible, on what level and to what extent?. Anything less is just boring in my opinion.

Why "if"? A magnet is indeed a set of current loops constituted by electronic spins (for the most part) and to a lesser extent by orbital rotations around atomic nuclei. It has been known since the early 20th century. Moving magnets are indeed billions of billions of billions of charges/spin in motion, and this too has been known since the beginning of the 20th century. When you know the elementary behaviour of a current loop, you just have to integrate on the whole volume to get the overall effect. This can even be done by Einstein's relativity. The magnetic field, for example, is the Lorentz transform of the electric field (and vice versa), between inertial reference frames moving relative to each other. The same facts are explained as well by Maxwell's electromagnetism as by Einstein's relativity. But it's not that simple. We also know that the spin is quantified and that the electron has two spin levels, which can be seen by NMR.
I don't think we have to re-invent the wheel. We have to complete what is known and see beyond, which requires us to know the current state of the art rather than wanting to destroy it because we would not understand it or because it would come from "formatted" academics. The best and more modest method is therefore the following:
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Standing_on_the_shoulders_of_giants

Offline Belfior

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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2018, 06:57:46 PM »
This has just become the most interesting thread on this forum...

Free Energy | searching for free energy and discussing free energy

Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #38 on: October 08, 2018, 06:57:46 PM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #39 on: October 09, 2018, 12:09:36 AM »
Greetings fellow earthlings

I'm satisfied that some of my own tests and measurements demonstrate net work done through permanent magnet interactions.

The principles are so simple that it is almost embarrassment, that It has taken 5 years to arrive at these observations / understandings.

I understand why they should work, how they work and that they in fact do work.

What ever else we can say about, and may have observed in the fields around permanent magnets....

                                              Two statements which are very certain, and  ......................  utterly noncontroversial are .......


1. Between magnets,  there are numerous methods by which we can create a very near balance of attracting and repelling forces.   
           
                   because of the above

2. In specific arrangements of magnets and along specific vectors, magnets can be made to approach or be withdraw from very near proximities
  with out doing work against magnetic forces.


That which is seems controversial .............   but which is also very reasonable and  can in fact be done  .....

1. A third magnet can approach and / or be removed from a near proximity to, and also be installed and / or removed from
between a combination of a first and a second magnet, with out doing work against magnetic forces.

2. Said third magnet's installation between a first and second magnet can create a balance between the attracting and repelling
forces between those said first and second magnets.

These actions and force Neutralizations are vector (direction) specific.








Offline F6FLT

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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2018, 01:29:57 PM »
Producing work with permanent magnets is as easy as it is with weights.
A falling weight produces work at the expense of its initial gravitational potential energy.
A permanent magnet "falling" towards another one, or pushed away, produces work at the expense of its initial magnetic potential energy.

In both cases, the potential energy on arrival is lower than it was at the beginning. The difference of potential, only depending on the start and end positions of the objects, whether gravitational or magnetic or electric, is the cause of a movement from A to B. If the start and end potentials are the same because we want a cycle, there is no longer a cause to go from A to A.

In order to close the loop you can imagine that going from A to B requires a different work than from B to A. So far it's been wishful thinking, because no experiment has shown it. This is why the theory, in line with the observations, stipulates that the energy used/supplied does not depend on the path (conservative force) but only on the potential difference.

Does anyone see something new in Kozeka's machine? I don't. What would be the subtle "new discovery" of Kozeka that would allow us to bypass everything we have seen so far?


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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #40 on: October 09, 2018, 01:29:57 PM »
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Offline Floor

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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #41 on: October 09, 2018, 09:17:23 PM »
Quote from floor
"I'm satisfied that some of my own tests and measurements demonstrate NET WORK done through permanent magnet interactions."
End quote

That is...... net work done.

Yes I see that his design is workable, although in my opinion he is too much so guided toward the classic mistake of going directly toward circular motions.
Presumably ....  to improve efficiency via conservation of momentum.

Similar, although more circular motion based designs,  it seems are marginal... in the respect  that  they barely demonstrate a work difference between input and output,
and /or are within the margin of error / questionable..

The inventor says that his outputted rotational motion...  needs to a repeat / second stage to complete a full circle of rotation.

I worked with several variations of design (rotating) I  came to that same conclusion myself. 
Although I have previously stated (in a OU forum topic) that my designs "didn't work out".  I don't rule it as outside of the possible..... that if the inventor
can implement additional stages, he might arrive at a self runner.

His design reminds me some what of Howard Johnson's work.. except that

1. Johnson expresses a different theoretical explanation for the excess force / work.
2. The physical mechanisms  of their devices are dissimilar.

But ......  both parties are focused on the  the force differences available at the corners or edges of the magnets / transition zones.
Most rotating designs focus similarly.
 
Honestly speaking however, I have made only superficial examinations of either ( this design and / or Johnson's  designs).

Because of these and other inventors admissions that their designs were / are marginal, I have taken a different tack.

My explorations have focused upon right angle interactions and reciprocating  motions... with the idea that rotation and momentum conservation
could occur at a later stage.

Conservation of momentum becomes less consequential when    high force / slow, short length displacements .....
                                                 are found in both the input and output of a device.

Perhaps you can help determine, if my designs are " Over Unity" or not ?


              floor

Offline F6FLT

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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #42 on: October 10, 2018, 04:13:58 PM »
Quote from floor
"I'm satisfied that some of my own tests and measurements demonstrate NET WORK done through permanent magnet interactions."
End quote

That is...... net work done.

Oh, really? That is enough? I am afraid that we do not share the same intellectual demand for scientific evidence.

As long as there is no duplication by independent teams, the assertion of perpetual motion cannot be taken for granted. We need diagrams, measurements with margins of uncertainty, experimental demonstrations, especially when the claim is extraordinary. This is necessary to devote time to duplication and to duplicate. I only saw the diagrams, as in hundreds of other patents for perpetual motion machines that do not work.

The new concept idea that allows the revolutionary effect that we have not been able to achieve so far, would also be welcome. The only thing here is that forces between permanent magnets moving face to face are different from forces between magnets sliding side by side relative to each other, and it is suggested that consequently both in association could maintain a cyclic movement.
The question of forces is something known for a long time, and it is irrelevant: a weaker force can do more work than a stronger force, what matters is not the forces but the work of forces, and therefore their product by their displacement, which is energy. About this point, we have nothing from the inventor.
In conclusion what we have here is an empty shell that Kozeka has to fill, the ball is in his court.



Offline Belfior

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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #43 on: October 10, 2018, 05:07:57 PM »
I think self looping is the minimum you have to achieve to go blow on any trumpets. I think there has to be electromagnets included. Then you can just turn magnets off on sticky points.

This might require that the magnet motor is accelerated to a certain sped first, but then you can get electrical power from a second rotor and use that to pulse the first rotor for movement

Offline F6FLT

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Re: New discovery suggest that permanent magnet motors might be possible
« Reply #44 on: October 11, 2018, 02:03:24 PM »
@Belfior
I agree with you. Only self-looping is a proof. I noticed that when we try to close the loop of a device that we think is overunity, that's when we see the flaw we didn't see before!

 

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